Help identifying potential "bottleneck" in system

[Hemlock]

Hello again,

I keep having thoughts about my system so forgive me for posting new threads but I figure it's better than hijaking my own thread with a stream of conciousness quesiton.

I am relatively new to the world of actual audio enthusiasm and I want to make sure I'm getting the best out of my system. I am not sure of all the technical issues so feel free to post a link in response if I have missed some good reading.

I'm looking for a potential weak link in my setup, in the PC world it's called a bottleneck

I run iTunes (soon to be a Linux variant) through 16 bit SBLive (soon to be Xonar D2) via RCA connection to an entry level Kenwood receiver (not soon to be anything else) via the TAPE in.

I then use the STEREO 3 setting on the kenwood to go to a pair of infiniti (entry level) bookshelfs.

I understand that none of this is anything but entry level but the speakers are pretty nice so I want to make sure they sound as good as they can

From what I understand, optical and digital outs ont he Xonar would need end up in an appliance with DAC-PREAMP-AMP before hitting the speakers, my Kenwood is no such appliance.

I don't have any upgrade budget but i can swing a few bucks <$100 if there is a glaring mistake in my rig.

thanks in advance.

 

[Shock]

Can you list the model number of your Kenwood amp, it would help greatly with your question. The model number should be plastered somewhere on the front or back on the receiver. (Usually front)

Even the basic of basic receivers should have digital inputs.

 

[Hemlock]

Yikes!

of course, sorry... rookie mistake

Kenwood V-305

she was old when I got her...

EDIT:
manual http://www.scribd.com/doc/3280758/ManualsMania-Kenwood-VR305-VR306pdf-Owners-Manual-English

 

[Shock]

So, Your connections are pretty much all you can do with that receiver. I would suggest swapping your connections from the Tape in to the CD in. Will this make a difference in the quality of audio? Probably not. I always just like using the CD inputs because I know they're not doing anything strange to my audio signals.

As far as upgrading your sound card, you might see a slight difference in audio quality but it would be due to processing that the new card will do to the sound. The Xonar series are nice sound cards for sure, but I wouldn't call your sb live a bottleneck. Unless you plan on upgrading your receiver and buying some more speakers anytime soon I would just stay with what you have.

The thing that is going to matter most is, the quality of the media you're playing. If you want your system to sound better you could always rip your music in a lossless or a 320 bitrate mp3 file. This will ofcourse take up a lot more space on your HDD but it's worth it in my opinion. If you download music I always suggest downloading at the highest possible bitrate you can.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm not really impressed with your Kenwood avr, it's rated at 80w (single channel driven) at 1Khz 8Ohm 0.7 THD, but at 40W thd rated 0.05% - which means only at 40w should expect to get clean sound and it'll distort almost 1% or more at full nominal volume...

Second, Imo you are really lacking in mid-bass/low-bass department with your budget bookshelfs, so your next upgrade should be subwoofer. Even something cheap like Dayton Sub-120 will make huge difference then properly x-overed

 

[Hemlock]

crap, sorry.

I do have a subwoofer. man am I bad at this, if i were asking a computer question I would berate myself for expecting readers to have ESP.

I have a Phillips SW-090. I was at a philips reair place and they had it in the used section, I asked how much it was and the guy said "we aren't allowed to sell used anymore becuase Phillips got mad, you can take it if you want it"

anyway

@ Bored- Agreed, the Kenwood is lame, she's about 10 years old and was my first surround sound receiver. there was a huge improvement when I releived the bookshelves of their Bass duty.

@Shock- the majority of my music is DL'd legally from etree (Live Grateful Dead shows recoreded from the Soundboard). I have been encoding them at 256 for iTunes, but thats part of the reason for the switch to Linux is to stream the FLACs from my NAS server.

Storage is not an issue, I've got more than half a Terrabyte free in the NAS server right now, and I'm gonna drog another Half TB in shortly.

I am keeping all the FLACS for seeding purposes anyway so playing them and not coverting will actually save space.

thanks for all the input, here is the next Question:

What should I look for in a receiver to make it worth moving up to a 24 bit 196k sound card?

 

[sholling]

I'm going to borrow bits and pieces from everybody. First up Bored's suggestion of investing in a subwoofer. A big +1! You might be able to find a used Velodyne VX-10 for $100 but I suspect that your best bet is to save a bit longer for an entry priced 12" Dayton. Parts Express occasionally has them on sale for $120 + S&H.

The sound cards. I am not a fan of Sound Blaster cards. Yes they are the standard for gaming but I'm not fond of their bundled bloatware or their sound quality. The chipset powering the Xonar D2 is a darn fine chipset and I think you've made a good choice. If I had any confidence in continued driver availability I'd probably also look at the HT Omega Claro Plus because of it's high-end (for a sound card) DACs - but only if you are going to keep using analog outputs.

The Claro uses the C-Media's flagship CMI8788 chipset. C-Media ran on hard times and it's my understanding that they sold the rights to Asus who renamed it AV200. If true that means that HT Omega may have trouble getting chips and access to updated drivers in the future. But maybe we don't need to spend that money which leads to the question... does your motherboard's built in sound have a digital out? Either coax or optical? If so then I'd put that $175 toward the cost of a used receiver with a digital input. The sound card's fancy chipset isn't doing a whole lot of work when you're outputting digital to the receiver. If you don't have digital out then I would invest in a decent sound card and start saving for a receiver but if you do have digital why spend the money on a card.

Finally the source. I rip all of my music to FLAC format. If you're a 'pod person' you could always use Apple Lossless. But I would rip all of your music to a lossless format. You can always make another copy in MP3 for your portable. I use dBPoweramp Reference ($36). It does a great job and automatically tags and files your rips. You can also use it run a batch conversion to make make MP3 copies of all of your lossless music. It'll even file them for you.

EDIT: I just saw the updated post with your sub. With a sub in place I'd start saving for a pair of Behringer B2030P studio monitors ($131 shipped). Unlike a lot of bookshelf speakers they rock up close.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

+1 to what shrolling says, plus one more thing I'd try:
As soon as you get you new Asus DS sound card, I'd give a shot and connect your Kenwood with analog cables, not optical. Why ? Since Asus DS DACs might be better than the one you kenwood has

 

[Hemlock]

@sholling- awesome, thanks for taking the time.
I will look up that Omega Sound card, also there is a Xonar for $40 out the door at newegg.

i have onboard sound with digital outs but I think the sound chip is fried.

I do have a SB with a Digital out but my receiver has no DAC that I'm aware of

+1 to what shrolling says, plus one more thing I'd try:
As soon as you get you new Asus DS sound card, I'd give a shot and connect your Kenwood with analog cables, not optical. Why ? Since Asus DS DACs might be better than the one you kenwood has

Pretty sure my reciever is DACless. I perused the Mrantz's you suggested but I am not able to spend $500+, also I would assume that I my Infinitis wouldn't benefit that much from a $1000 receiver, but I could be wrong.


EDIT: Does this Xonar have Digital Out?
it says it has SPDIF Out but that sounds like a proprietary Sony/Phillips thing that would limit my receiver upgrade pool

 

[njedpx3]

Your best improvemnet right now would be upgrading your speakers to the $131 Behringher 2030Ps that Sholling suggested. Then a better sub the Dayton SUB-120 HT is a very good inexpensive sub, usually $155. The your bottleneck would be the sound card' I love IT people ---really ---I used to be one Then I would look at a new receiver.

Oh and if no one has said it before..Welcome to Audioholics forums.


Peace, Good Sound and Good Video,

Forest Man

P.S. - Audioholics is like programming it is always only 95%done; there is always tweaking and upgrades you never reach the asymptotic line of perfect sound

 

[Hemlock]

Your best improvemnet right now would be upgrading your speakers to the $131 Behringher 2030Ps that Sholling suggested. Then a better sub the Dayton SUB-120 HT is a very good inexpensive sub, usually $155. The your bottleneck would be the sound card' I love IT people ---really ---I used to be one Then I would look at a new receiver.

Oh and if no one has said it before..Welcome to Audioholics forums.


Peace, Good Sound and Good Video,

Forest Man

P.S. - Audioholics is like programming it is always only 95%done; there is always tweaking and upgrades you never reach the asymptotic line of perfect sound

Actually I think I have the best job in the world. I TEACH IT, which means I get to play with computers all day, without the cell phone on the nightstand

So from what I'm reading it seems that my Speakers and Receivers will NOT benefit from and upgrade from 16 bit sound to 24 bit sound?

 

[njedpx3]

Actually I think I have the best job in the world. I TEACH IT, which means I get to play with computers all day, without the cell phone on the nightstand

So from what I'm reading it seems that my Speakers and Receivers will NOT benefit from and upgrade from 16 bit sound to 24 bit sound?

When you turn an analog signal into a digital you sample at various intervals. You can never completely 100% duplicate the infinite variations of analog signal. However, as you decrease the sampling period you improve the analog characterization so 16 bit would be very good and 24 bit would be closer to excellent. As I stated before or tried too, the speakers are the most important element of sound (..unless you have garbage in )and are usually the bottled neck ..unless there is a problem with the HMI and it is very hard to upgrade the tympanic membrane and the auditory canal.

Good Sound,

Forest Man

P.S. - Yeah a long,long time ago in a land far away ..I taught FORTRAN and programmed the mainframe in Assembler as a Systems Engineer

 

[Hemlock]

OK,
Gotcha. I am thinking I will grab that Xonar card if I can verify that SPDIF is connectable to a decent range of Receivers, I think at $40 i shouldn't let it get away.

As far as speakers go, without asking for too much of a favor, could you point out a few of the issues with my P152's? I would like to know a bit more so I can shop wisely...

Speaker Type 2-way - passive
Response Bandwidth 58 - 20000 Hz
Input Impedance 8 Ohm
Recommended Amplifier Power 10 - 100 Watt
Sensitivity 88 dB
Crossover Frequency 3300Hz
Magnetic Shield Yes
Connectivity Technology Wired
Recommended Placing Bookshelf, wall-mountable

 

[njedpx3]

OK,
Gotcha. I am thinking I will grab that Xonar card if I can verify that SPDIF is connectable to a decent range of Receivers, I think at $40 i shouldn't let it get away.

As far as speakers go, without asking for too much of a favor, could you point out a few of the issues with my P152's? I would like to know a bit more so I can shop wisely...

Speaker Type 2-way - passive
Response Bandwidth 58 - 20000 Hz
Input Impedance 8 Ohm
Recommended Amplifier Power 10 - 100 Watt
Sensitivity 88 dB
Crossover Frequency 3300Hz
Magnetic Shield Yes
Connectivity Technology Wired
Recommended Placing Bookshelf, wall-mountable

The Infinity P152 are inexpensive entry speakers at $77. The sensitivity of 88 dB is about average. A high sensitivity speaker, example 100 dB will produce louder sound with less power. As with many speakers the nominal impedance is 8 ohms which means any receiver can driver.

Look at this review of the P162 which is similar but costs a little more $159 each. http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/infinity-primus-p162

However, I would read one of Audioholics recent bookshelf speaker shoot-outs. There is usually a good reason why a speaker is not included ..typically not good enough sound response or there is a similar speaker in the same family. Here are some bookshelf speaker reviews : http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf

Read the Usher S-520 Speaker review. This is what added money will buy
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/usher-audio-s-520-bookshelf-speaker-review
It should at $400 per pair.

Now getting back down to more reasonable prices. The Behringer 2030P is an outstanding speaker for $131 per pair and it is not considered entry level and is recommneded by a large number of Audioholic members. http://www.pro-audio-warehouse.com/b2030p.html

My favorite and I can strongly recommend because I have them in my cabin is the Cambridge Audio S-30s. They are currnetly $219 a pair, but sometimes you can find them as low as $199. http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Audio-Bookshelf-Speakers-Black/dp/B00196SJOI The are small , very well built, asthetically look outstanding and have excellent sound. They are rated down to 55 Hz and even though they probalby dont go that low they have very good low frequency response. Here are the specs:

S30 bookshelf
Sensitivity: 90dB

Frequency Response: 55hz - 20kHz

Nominal Impedance: 4-8 Ohms

Drive units: Tweeter: 1 x 25mm (1”)
Woofer: 1 x 115mm (4.5") mid/bass driver


Crossover: 1st Order 2 way

Recommended maximum amplifier power: 100 watts

Ported: 1 Rear

Magnetically shielded: Yes

Dimensions (H x W x D): 226 x 160 x 235mm (inc. grill)
(8.9 x 6.3 x 9.2”)


Weight: 3.75kg (8.3lbs)

Finishes: Natural Oak
Black

======
To really compare you need to audition yourself as many speakers as you are interest in, in a setup similar in size and placement you will actually be using with the type of music you like.

Good Luck and Good Sound,

Forest Man

 

[Hemlock]

wow!

thanks!

I think this thread is completed.

thanks

 

[Fyper]

Interesting,

Seems that no-one mentioned that ITunes wasn’t bit perfect under Windows and that the first thing prior to thinking about upgrading any hardware piece would be to make sure that the audio file hasn’t been tempered with before getting in the soundcard and/or converter.
I would advise to use players which accept drivers allowing bypassing Windows (Asio drivers with Asio4all, KS drivers, Wasapi drivers). There are many players allowing this like Foobar2000, Winamp, Album Player, Media Monkey, etc...

The mention of using lossless file natively is essential to sound quality, here again no need to change anything in your system if you’re playing MP3 files. As was said if you still want to use ITunes ALAC files should be used, all the other players can play your FLAC files natively.

No-one really mentioned the receiver. Before talking High-Res 24/192 files. please be aware that only a very small number of top-level AV receivers are able to compete with medium quality Hifi Stereo amps.
I don’t know about yours, but most receivers not having the “direct Stereo” option are actually converting back the entering analogue signal into digital signal (to potentially apply a DSP) and back to analogue. In other words, if you have that type of receiver, no matter the quality of the analogue signal going out of your server, the sound will only depend on the quality of the DACs of the receiver and the quality of its amps.

 

[Hemlock]

interesting point.

itunes is already out, looks like foobar2000 won the audition for the next player.


my Kenwood VR-305 is likely doing just that as i use "Stereo 3" mode for L R Bookshelves and a Sub.

I wonder if "Monitor" mode would do what you mention.

here's the OM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3280758/ManualsMania-Kenwood-VR305-VR306pdf-Owners-Manual-English

 

[krzywica]

I have been using Foobar for a long time and it is by far the best app for audiophile quality. Make sure you set the bitrates and sampling rates in the properties to the highest possible so it outputs everything at the highest possible bitrate.

 

[Nemo128]

Concur above.

 

[Hemlock]

As a quick followup, my Kenwood has a "Direct Source" button which bypasses the internal sound mixing.

VERY COOL.

as for Foobar I am still in the setup mode.

currently using upwards of 70-80% of my CPU (Athlon 64 3200+).