Heat and electricity

[highfigh]

I do believe you’re on to something my home is built it 2004 so it’s up to code with 14 gauge wire. Buckneked could very possibly be right that at least in my case I may be the ever changing variable. I’m trying to learn so much in a short period. I’ve metered it because of my belief I’m fluctuating in power. Depending on the outlet I’m reading between 114 and 117 Volts constantly even when I’m perceiving a drop in sound. My understanding is some of the capacitors in these units are designed exactly for the purposes of controlling the electricity flow in order to regulate the fluctuations. No out of curiosity I want to meter the amperage for curiosity.

Where do you live, that you see 114VAC?

The caps mainly filter the 'ripple' from the rectified current- they're not for maintaining power at the supply line level and they operate in the DC realm.

 

[Focus SE]

Just a nit here, the goal with heat and electronics is NOT to refrigerate them. That's not the thermodynamic goal.
I know your comment was tongue in cheek. Good humor. I got it. two thumbs up.

The goal with excess BTUs is heat removal. If one has electronics generating excess BTU's of heat, the only path that makes economic sense is heat removal: which means exhaust fans of some type. Trying to refrigerate electronics will ultimately cost more than the value produced by the electronics themselves.

I too use an AC Infinity heat removal fan system on my AVR. Do I absolutely NEED to ? Nope. Do I WANT to use it? Yes ! In my pea sized brain it removes the heat, silently, and that should improve the lifespan of the device.
It disappears to the eye, it's all black and looks like a pizza box on top of the AVR. Makes zero discernible noise.
And it autosenses a point where it turns on the exhaust fans and when the AVR cools down it turns off the fans.

And how does the OP compare one days result from another ? Memory?
(See my comments on us as humans being a bag of worms.) Memory would be the worst way.

Absolutely longevity of equipment is my goal hear!!!!

 

[highfigh]

I should get a small fridge and place them in it.

Or, one of these-

The World's Smallest Mobile DC Air Conditioner Unit.

RIGID Micro DC Aircon is a compact solution for small & confined space cooling, like vans, trailers, pets, batteries, and electric vehicles.

rigidchill.com

 

[Focus SE]

I would say my understanding of electricity as it relates to a home is pretty good. Not a journeyman electrician but I get it. BUT, when it comes to small electronics it gets way more complicated for me. There is a lot happening there. One certainty is that it is much easier to blow your stuff up by starving it for power not overloading it. Brown outs are bad!!!!

The amps are still using current. This is the quiescent current, and that will create some heat. It all comes down to the bias point between class A and B. The more it is biased to class A, the higher the quiescent current, but the better the low signal quality. Your Cinema 60 has a quiescent power draw of 45 watts, which is 7% of the full power draw. However, a 45 watt light bulb makes quite a bit of heat. So even when not using the amps to power speakers, it is still like having an old 45 watt incandescent light bulb inside your receiver. The only way round this is to go with separates and use an AVP. Even then, good ventilation is still required, and you need at least 5" of clearance all above and to the sides.

I highly doubt your line voltage is sagging, and if it is your power company is out of compliance. You can easily check this with a multimeter.

This makes sense I think? you are correct I metered the outlets and there is no voltage fluctuation. but for curiosity I want to measure the amps on that circuit while in use. Buckneked correctly pointed out many variables. I’m now wondering if my music source being streaming and not cd or album. If It could very well be a fluctuating in internet service not electricity. Could a slow down in down load affect sound? I don’t have noise I seemingly lose brilliance and volume. Not even sure if that’s possible but hey it’s me.
If my wife can decorate a Christmas tree and have it pull 13 amps I have to be close to pushing my 15 amp circuit controlling a tv, computer, cable box, turn table security camera system, dvd, Avr, and amp. No they are not all running at the same time but all plugged in and pulling juice. What I don’t truly understand about residential electricity is when you flirt with the limits of a breaker, how much electricity acts like it’s in brown out mode before it trips? ( I have never tripped anything, I’m just discussing theory and I understand and intend on breaking the circuit into three sources. Three circuits has to be better than heating up 14g wire to its max. I am a work in progress.

 

[Focus SE]

Where do you live, that you see 114VAC?

The caps mainly filter the 'ripple' from the rectified current- they're not for maintaining power at the supply line level and they operate in the DC realm.

I live in Illinois I’ve been trying to hunt down the variance but have been able to. Everything is conduit so I’m not dealing with a double boned ground and the 114 is within tolerance so it hasn’t bothered me on nothing sensitive is on that breaker. It’s baffling. The 117 is on the higher side of many of the houses I’ve worked in. I am not a trained professional but I know how not to kill me or others. Again I don’t do this for a living but the closer to Chicago I go the closer to 110 I get. Is that my unprofessional opinion? Most likely

 

[Focus SE]

How are you able to compare these events other than from memory?

As crazy as it sounds I am retired and have done extensive long day listening and I believe that’s how I perceived it to be so because it happened in real time as I was listening. It wasn’t that I came back and it sounded different. If that makes sense?

 

[Focus SE]

Oh, I did see it.
Mine is a different challenge to him.

Yeah guys, I get it I wasn’t clear it happened in real time yes I’ve listened hours and hours on end. If I’m awake I’m listing. My friend warned me that most people I talk to about this will look at me like I have three heads. Of the few that do get the difference in sound will not think it’s worth the money or time to sit and listen. He could not have been more right. Explaining all the nuances of this hobby in a forum post is nearly impossible and a lot of assumptions are made on poster and respondent. These amplifiers are complicated marriages between very high and low voltage all producing sound pleasing to one person and annoying to another. My daughter yells at me for not listening to her speak when she mumbles but says there is no noice coming from her car with a bad wheel bearing that sounds like she’s dragging a refrigerator behind her car and says it’s not making any noise.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you That is a good point on pre amp setting when I went through the set up I definitely did not put it in pre amp mode. As far as heat I guess that’s a relative term. But with no surface thermometer not sure the exact temp. All I can say is (because this whole system is new to me I’m pushing it to see what it will do) when I get close to the 50 mark on the volume dial the internal fan on the amp kicks in. And I’ve only done that a handful of times once to 62 and imminent hearing loss was a serious concern and I like it on the louder side. (I fully understand in those moments heat is going to be generated and a lot of it) my question was referring to when I hover around the 35 mark. I am pushing big 4ohm speakers with a unit that only publishes ratings to 6ohm measurements. I’m not in fear of overheating it just gets warm and I will definitely revisit set up

Are those volume scale readings after you calibrated the system using the absolute scale? Or?

Interesting that the fans are audible on the amp.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Or, one of these-

The World's Smallest Mobile DC Air Conditioner Unit.

RIGID Micro DC Aircon is a compact solution for small & confined space cooling, like vans, trailers, pets, batteries, and electric vehicles.

rigidchill.com

Thanks, exactly what I need.
Hate to ask them for a quote.

 

[mtrycrafts]

As crazy as it sounds I am retired and have done extensive long day listening and I believe that’s how I perceived it to be so because it happened in real time as I was listening. It wasn’t that I came back and it sounded different. If that makes sense?

Yes, but.
You still relied on your memory of the past which is longer than 10 seconds. And, you didn't listen to the same passage looped over and over again, all day long, right?
Very subjective and unreliable as a real yardstick.
Just enjoy what you have and don't worry about it. And don't be distracted by worrying about this.

 

[Focus SE]

Are those volume scale readings after you calibrated the system using the absolute scale? Or?

Interesting that the fans are audible on the amp.

Yes they are the volume settings I was using after I did the calibration. The amp fan ( after giving it a good work out) actually sounds like a computer fan.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes they are the volume settings I was using after I did the calibration. The amp fan ( after giving it a good work out) actually sounds like a computer fan.

Seems you don't need a lot of volume at least then (and was it more movies or music?). You don't hear the amp fans from your seat, do you?

 

[Focus SE]

Seems you don't need a lot of volume at least then (and was it more movies or music?). You don't hear the amp fans from your seat, do you?

Since putting the system together I have not watched any movies so that will be an entirely new set of issues. Let’s just say my room is an acoustical mess. The intent now that I’m an empty nester, is to set up a designated listening room. So for now I’m in a family room that is a great location in my house but the layout is poor for music. As far as the fan kicking on yes I can clearly hear it kick in. Total disclosure the average person would not ever have a problem because you really need to have it at a high volume before it kicks in. It’s new and I’m having fun but it’s not daily listening. The equipment is almost directly to my left about three feet away and the speakers are 13 feet in front of me. The point of this thread wasn’t that I had a constant heat problem it’s really just me trying to get a better understanding of how these things tick without having to get a doctorate in electrical engineering with a masters in sound. I went to the axpona show here in Illinois. And I can tell you I listened to some really cool stuff. Not one room I went into could I say that sounds bad. But what I can tell you is some rooms it sounded like something I want to hear in my house. Equipment matters to my ears. But my budget for what I want to do is laughable to a lot of audiophiles but much higher than the average bear. I appreciate the reasoned dialog
Thanks

 

[PENG]

Marantz and Denon share a lot of features. I do believe his has a dedicated pre-amp mode, which does turn off some of the amp circuitry involved (but in terms of heat may be negligible, don't know). @PENG may have some thoughts on that angle.

As far as I could tell, the preamp mode for those amps such as the 3700 and likely the same for the 3800, only disconnect the pre outs to the internet power amp inputs, and automatically engaged eco to lower the rail voltage.

At least that's the case for the 3700 as confirmed by D+M(not 100% as that's based on distant memory but it could be key word search on forums where someone might have linked response from Denon, or Marantz). Time permitting I might search AVSF and see if I could find something. It had also been measured with the cheap and dirty sort of "kill-a-watt" type plugs that showed much lower consumption in preamp mode, mostly due to ECO being turned on by the premap mode. The 3800/4800/C50/40/60 may have features that further lower the rail voltage in preamp mode than what ECO does but I have not seen any official words on that.

 

[PENG]

How are you able to compare these events other than from memory?

He must have at least a clock, if not other things to tell him that!!

He said "My second curiosity is power supply to my home. I thought I was crazy that the performance of my speakers fluctuates depending on the time of day. "

 

[PENG]

Searching any forum including this one is like calling an automated customer service number. It never has the options you’re looking for. Here is my question, I am currently using my Marantz cinema 60 for 99.9% streaming audio. I am running two sets of speakers (one set is hardly ever on) both are powered by a Marantz 7055 amp. So the avr is merely a processor at this point because the speakers are hooked to the pre-outs. However the receiver still gets hot when it’s not pushing anything. Im Curious as to why when there is no load on the avr it would still get hot.
My second curiosity is power supply to my home. I thought I was crazy that the performance of my speakers fluctuates depending on the time of day. Early mornings and at night I appear to get more clarity and volume at the same setting. I looked it up on line andI guess it’s a real thing. According to PS audios Paul McGowan it is absolutely an issue in their factory. Of course they sell a power supply to correct that for 12k. I know there has to be more reasonable solutions. Has anyone even experienced this and found a solution?

Trying measuring the temperature by pointing the

, or something like that but make sure it is a good quality one (not something listed for under $15, just an example...) at the same spot when the thing sounds good, and not as good, to you.

It would be normal/possible what you perceived was real, if the temperature was much higher when it doesn't sound as good. Any subtle difference would likely not be real because of "bias".

As to what Paul McGowan said, it is hard to say if that was real, valid, bs, or something in between. If you have a multimeter, you can also measure the voltage in the morning, afternoon, evening etc., to see how much it fluctuates, chances are it won't fluctuate more than 5% any time of the day, otherwise you should complain to your electricity supplier.

 

[Focus SE]

He must have at least a clock, if not other things to tell him that!!

He said "My second curiosity is power supply to my home. I thought I was crazy that the performance of my speakers fluctuates depending on the time of day. "

And ears that I think can still hear enough to know when the volume dips and clarity is diminished in the middle of a song and it happens frequently in the mornings

 

[Focus SE]

Trying measuring the temperature by pointing the View attachment 62461, or something like that but make sure it is a good quality one (not something listed for under $15, just an example...) at the same spot when the thing sounds good, and not as good, to you.

It would be normal/possible what you perceived was real, if the temperature was much higher when it doesn't sound as good. Any subtle difference would likely not be real because of "bias".

As to what Paul McGowan said, it is hard to say if that was real, valid, bs, or something in between. If you have a multimeter, you can also measure the voltage in the morning, afternoon, evening etc., to see how much it fluctuates, chances are it won't fluctuate more than 5% any time of the day, otherwise you should complain to your electricity supplier.

The Paul McGowan comment was more satire on my part. Because of the $12k price tag to solve my issue. There may be some truth to it and good quality speakers, which I believe I have will really show detail good and bad. I have metered the circuit being used and others at the time in volume and clarity drop. There is zero change or fluctuations. I am now thinking the changes may be coming in a download rate but I haven’t gone down that path yet. The avr and amp are new and really sound good. 99.9 percent of my listening is steamed Apple Music Bluetoothed to the avr. I’m now leaning towards the source being my issue. I’ve had iTunes for a long time and cds I’ve imported sound horrible yet the streamed version is much more brilliant. So now I’m into a bit rate download speed conversation way above my head. Thanks
Also I have checked all power cords outlets and wires in the houses electrical panel and none are warm to the touch. Not scientific but enough to tell me I’m not to overloaded

 

[PENG]

The Paul McGowan comment was more satire on my part. Because of the $12k price tag to solve my issue. There may be some truth to it and good quality speakers, which I believe I have will really show detail good and bad. I have metered the circuit being used and others at the time in volume and clarity drop. There is zero change or fluctuations. I am now thinking the changes may be coming in a download rate but I haven’t gone down that path yet. The avr and amp are new and really sound good. 99.9 percent of my listening is steamed Apple Music Bluetoothed to the avr. I’m now leaning towards the source being my issue. I’ve had iTunes for a long time and cds I’ve imported sound horrible yet the streamed version is much more brilliant. So now I’m into a bit rate download speed conversation way above my head. Thanks
Also I have checked all power cords outlets and wires in the houses electrical panel and none are warm to the touch. Not scientific but enough to tell me I’m not to overloaded

Yes, download speed/rate could definitely do that to you. Anything is, I will not use Apple music as I don't want to be limited to anything less then 24b/192 kHz. I do not believe the need for anything higher than 16bit/44.1 kHz either, but I do believe (I actually know by experience) that there are far more above 24b/48 kHz) contents that are of the better recording/mastering quality than those below that resolution. When it comes to perceived sound quality, I am 100% sure the recording quality of the contents trump anything else, assuming we are talking about audio gear used are on the side of the point of diminishing return curve.

 

[Focus SE]

Yes, download speed/rate could definitely do that to you. Anything is, I will not use Apple music as I don't want to be limited to anything less then 24b/192 kHz. I do not believe the need for anything higher than 16bit/44.1 kHz either, but I do believe (I actually know by experience) that there are far more above 24b/48 kHz) contents that are of the better recording/mastering quality than those below that resolution. When it comes to perceived sound quality, I am 100% sure the recording quality of the contents trump anything else, assuming we are talking about audio gear used are on the side of the point of diminishing return curve.

I believe you may have narrowed my issue to an understandable way for my brain. As far as recordings you could not be more right. My favorite artist growing up was Bob Seger. When I set this system up I was like “WTF” I just wasted all my money! Starting with Night Moves all the way through Like a Rock there is zero dynamics. Don’t even get me started on REO Speedwagons Roll with the changes, it’s un-listenable on my speakers. I asked why in the heck can I now like the sound of things I didn’t listen to and and dislike my favorites. In another forum I asked about getting a good quality switch so I can hook up my old school infinity’s and would love to find a good pair at a decent price of Kappa 9.1’s they played my favorites a little better but that being said I couldn’t be happier with my sound with good recordings. I just can’t get enough!!!
Thanks I’ll look into anther streaming service
As it relates to your diminishing returns point I have reached that curve in my budget. One bit of advice I got was that you don’t need to spend a lot of money to get good sound. He was exactly right. But that being said a friend of mine has the same speakers and hi end equipment and it certainly is a better sound than I have. However my budget stops here. And now there is only one person I know with, IMO, has a better sound pleasing to my ears and I’m ok with second place because I don’t have four times the money to get there.