Headphones, another change?

[nm2285]

I currently own Sennheiser HD590s and although I am happy with them, I am not thrilled. They are very nice headphones, just not quite to my personal tastes. They're a bit too dark and saturated in the low midrange and bass. I'm looking for a headphone (supraural) that has a more neutral sound. Right now the front runners are the AKG K501 and the Beyerdynamic DT880 or DT860.

Does anyone have experience with these? Any other recomendations?

As a side note, I've tried the Senn HD497, HD280; Sony MDR-V6; Shure E2C; Etymotic ER-6 (own); and Grado SR60, 80, 125. The ER-6s have more of the sound characteristics I'm looking for, I just want them to be more refined. I prefer my HD590s to everything on this list.

 

[WmAx]

I'm looking for a headphone (supraural) that has a more neutral sound. Right now the front runners are the AKG K501 and the Beyerdynamic DT880 or DT860.

Does anyone have experience with these? Any other recomendations?

If you want my personal opinion: I don't care for the DT880. I have not used the DT860. I have used most of the high-end headphones at one point or another, whilst looking for what I prefer. The AKG K501 is one of my favorite for classical, jazz and acoustic music with the provision that it is slightly modified and driven from approx. 120 ohm source impedance. It sounds like the most natural to me(so far). In stock form, I don't care too much for the AKG K501. With the modification, I like it more(on the aforementioned genres) than the Sony R10 and Stax Omega II, for example. I can post the AKG modification and resultant measurements if you desire. For other music genres such as rock, electronic and most modern pop music, I don't care for the AKG K501 headphone(modified or stock). I think the Stax Omega II is a better rounded headphone, it does not sound quite as good on acoustic, jazz and classical, but it sounds better over a wider gamut of music genres. However, the price is prohibitive and the unit is not suited for portable use without some handywork. The AKG K1000 is another option, and it has a similar sound to the AKG K501, but I have not seriously listened to the AKG K1000, therefor I don't have a solid opinion on whether I think it's better, overall, as compared to the AKG K501. However, the AKG K1000 definately has a better defined soundstage, as you can angle the drivers(they are on hinges attached to the headband) outwards from your ears at a considerable angle.

Note: I realize that it can be very difficult to audition a selection of high quality headphones. It's simply difficult to find a store/outlet that has a large(or any) selection. I am probably going to a headphone meeting this weekend that has an expansive selection of high quality headphones. If you wish, I could use music tracks that you specify and give you my impressions of specific differences between headphones that you instruct me to compare. You can arrange this through IM or e-mail.

User Steve1000 on this website has used many of the high-end headphones, also, and may be able to help you, provided that he reads this thread. He has also heard my modified AKG K501 compared directly to a stock AKG K501, so he could also comment on this issue.

-Chris

 

[Nick250]

The Senns HD580 is my favorite. A portable listening device will not have enough umph to drive it, but through a receiver or head phone amp it sounds very natural and acurate and sounds great to me. With a portable listening device one of the Grados is my preference.

 

[Sheep]

HD570's

i use the HD570's with my portable player, and they sound great. they go loud, but don't distort, even at max. so, you really need to audition them with what ever device you use.


sheep

 

[nm2285]

Chris:

Thanks for the detailed post. My listening preferences are classic rock, jazz, blues (probably in that order). So I'd certainly like a headphone that performs well with all of them. Like I said, I'm not a huge fan of the Grado sound (too forward/dynamic for my tastes) and I prefer but am not in love with the Sennheiser sound. Do you have any other recommendations?

What is it that you don't like about the DT880s. What is it that you dislike about the k501s? What is it that you prefer with the mod?

I appreciate the offer for the listening impressions, but I won't bother you since I'm sure our ears are different. I'm not sure how helpful it would actually be. If you could just keep an ear out for headphones that you find to sound neutral, maybe even dry, and pleasant with most types of music, that'd be great!

It's unfortunate that a decent selection of headphones is so difficult to find in stores.



Nick and Sheep:

Thanks for the recommendations, but having experienced 3 sets of Senn headphones, I don't think either one of those will be quite what I'm looking for just based on my personal preferences.


Keep the recommendations coming!

 

[20to20K]

The Senns HD580 is my favorite. A portable listening device will not have enough umph to drive it, but through a receiver or head phone amp it sounds very natural and acurate and sounds great to me. With a portable listening device one of the Grados is my preference.

Considering that the HD590's replaced the HD580's, I'm thinking they may not be a great suggestion for this person. I own the 590's myself and I enjoy them. I like their bass extension...my only minor quibble is them being a tad bright on certain recordings.

I got them on a steal ($110 open box at Tweeter) so I'm not complaining.
I don't listen to headphones that often anyway...

 

[nm2285]

20to20K:

Do you use any external amp for your 590s? They certainly are nice headphones. I'm just thinking I could find some I prefer. I also got them for around that price barely used (which makes it hard to consider giving them up!).

 

[Steve1000]

I can vouch for WmAxs AKG501s with compressed earpads. On direct A/B comparison, the tonal balance seemed smoother and better balanced than that of even the most expensive headphones when listening to acoustic popular, jazz and classical music. The AKG 501s with unmodified stock pads are of course very nice phones but they are to me a little light in the bass area.

If you are happy but not thrilled with the HD590s, you might also look into the Senn HD555s and the HD595s, which I do not believe are as saturated in the low midrange and bass than the HD590s, though I have only very limited experience with these phones.

I currently own Sennheiser HD590s and although I am happy with them, I am not thrilled. They are very nice headphones, just not quite to my personal tastes. They're a bit too dark and saturated in the low midrange and bass. I'm looking for a headphone (supraural) that has a more neutral sound. Right now the front runners are the AKG K501 and the Beyerdynamic DT880 or DT860.

Does anyone have experience with these? Any other recomendations?

As a side note, I've tried the Senn HD497, HD280; Sony MDR-V6; Shure E2C; Etymotic ER-6 (own); and Grado SR60, 80, 125. The ER-6s have more of the sound characteristics I'm looking for, I just want them to be more refined. I prefer my HD590s to everything on this list.

 

[WmAx]

Chris:

Thanks for the detailed post. My listening preferences are classic rock, jazz, blues (probably in that order). So I'd certainly like a headphone that performs well with all of them.

Well, the AKG K501 might be a contendor, in this case. The AKG K501(modified) basicly sounds very good on high quality recordings. On poor quality recordings(most modern pop, modern pop rock, etc. releases) it sounds terrible/annoying. For most modern pop/electronic music, I use a modified(I don't like it stock) Sony MDR-CD3000 headphone. Not a nuetral headphone by any means, but it's distinct coloration(s) make many modern pop/electronic releases sound very good.

Like I said, I'm not a huge fan of the Grado sound (too forward/dynamic for my tastes) and I prefer but am not in love with the Sennheiser sound. Do you have any other recommendations?

I feel exactly the same way about Grado(but have you heard the PS1? It's not forward like many of the other Grados--thought it's still not something I like due to it's very heavy bass balance). I also don't like Sennheiser particularly, at least in reference to the Sennheiser HD580, HD600 and HD650.

What is it that you don't like about the DT880s.

They sounded like they had basicly an even tonal balance, but they sounded too harsh, compared to the best headphones I have used. Something was off in the midrange. But realize that my standards are distorted, and might be considered unreasonable: I have a low tolerance for sound signatures that differ even slightly from my preference(s).

What is it that you dislike about the k501s?

The K501 has a relative low amplitude bass balance. The(stock) K501 has a brittle(a depression in the midrange band) sound that I find annoying.

What is it that you prefer with the mod?

The modification removes the hole in the midrange.(measurements available upon request) This makes the headphone much smoother sounding. In fact, it sounds more natural/balanced on high quality acoustic/jazz/blues/classical than any other headphone that I have heard to date, regardless of price.

I appreciate the offer for the listening impressions, but I won't bother you since I'm sure our ears are different. I'm not sure how helpful it would actually be.

Actually, when using the same music, and listening in the same manner(in controlled settings), trained listeners/audio enthusiasts tend to prefer the same sound most of the time, according to credible perception research.

If you could just keep an ear out for headphones that you find to sound neutral, maybe even dry, and pleasant with most types of music, that'd be great!

Modified AKG K501, if you use it only on high quality recordings. The Ergo A.M.T. might be even more versatile, but not quite as natural sounding on high quality acoustic recordings. However, the Ergo A.M.T. is costly, if you can find one to purchase. AKG K1000 is also interesting, but as I said earlier, I have not had an opportunity to evaluate this headphone thoroughly.

-Chris

 

[nm2285]

I'm thinking that if I do ultimately decide to switch, the k501s are the way to go. Could you explain the mod to me?

Thanks again, you've been of great help

 

[WmAx]

I'm thinking that if I do ultimately decide to switch, the k501s are the way to go. Could you explain the mod to me?

The modification is to compress the pads to almost 1/2 the original thickness. The easiest way for me: place them(cushion side down) in a simmering(almost boiling) large pan of water, and using about 5lbs of force, pressing down with pressure for about 40 seconds. Then remove from water and place on thick dry towels with 10lbs placed on top for several minutes. Then change the towels for dry ones and place 10lbs on them again for several minutes until dry.

Here is a compressed pad beside a stock pad:

I use a special jig to measure headphones/modifications of headphones. The jig is very consistant, and removes nearly all effect of high frequency boundary reflections/nulls caused by the measurement baffle.

Blue = Modified Pads, Green=Stock Pads

Additionally, here is the difference between using a low output impedance jack and a high output impedance jack(these measurements were made using modified pads).(Note: AKG headphones are apparently designed to work with the IEC 61938 international standard that states headphones should be designed to work correctly with a 120 ohm source impedance.)

Blue=122.5 Ohms, Green=3.5 Ohms

Thanks again, you've been of great help

Anytime.

-Chris

 

[Nick250]

Considering that the HD590's replaced the HD580's, I'm thinking they may not be a great suggestion for this person. I own the 590's myself and I enjoy them. I like their bass extension...my only minor quibble is them being a tad bright on certain recordings.

I got them on a steal ($110 open box at Tweeter) so I'm not complaining.
I don't listen to headphones that often anyway...

The Senns HD580s are better than the 590s for my ears. I bought and returned the 590s, too bright for me. They are easier to drive however and you can use them on a portable listening device. There is still large demand for the 580s and they continue to sell well. When all is said and done however, headphones are like speakers, you get what sounds good to you within your budget.

 

[20to20K]

Nope...

20to20K:

Do you use any external amp for your 590s? They certainly are nice headphones. I'm just thinking I could find some I prefer. I also got them for around that price barely used (which makes it hard to consider giving them up!).

Plug them right into my 3805. Do you think I would get significantly better
sound with and external headphone amp? The comfort level of them are extremely high. It feels like your wearing...nothing at all!

 

[WmAx]

Plug them right into my 3805. Do you think I would get significantly better
sound with and external headphone amp?

It depends. If the device you currently use has audible distortion(s), insufficient voltage output and/or noise, then another amp would be beneficial. Additionally, while it might not make a difference on most headphones, some may be more suited to a 120 ohm output source impedance; using them on a low output source impedance(most headphone jacks) may affect frequency response in a subtle, but audible degree. Please refer to my prior post for an example resultant graph of one such headphone. You can make a low source impedance 120 ohms by adding a 120 ohm resistor in line with with + L and + R feeding the headphone.

-Chris

 

[nm2285]

Well I received the AKG K501s just the other day and let me say, they were definately the right choice! Such clarity and definition! Thanks for the recommendations for them. They're very much to my tastes.

I'm considering the mod because they could use a bit more prominence in the bass region. However, keeping my hands off the open part of the exterior, i pushed the phones closer to my head to try and model the sound of the mod. I dont like that the soundstage collapsed some and therefore the instruments and singers were less well defined in space. Also, much of the sound sounds "thicker" but not in a more robust way, just somewhat bloated.

Does the mod impart these characteristics on the cans or is my attempt to model not an appropriate method?

Thanks again!
Nick

 

[nm2285]

I just tried the blu tac mod (see: http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=125648&page=2&pp=20&highlight=akg+k501+mod )

and it seems to have emphasized the bass some. I havent had the headphones for very long so its hard to say for sure. Would someone be able to/interested in taking measurements using this mod?

Note: I only put the blu-tac on the center 3 holes. Putting it over all of them seemed to bloat the bass too much. The center 3 seemed to just make it more prominent.

 

[WmAx]

Does the mod impart these characteristics on the cans or is my attempt to model not an appropriate method?

Thanks again!
Nick

Doing it this way is not a very good way to model the effect. The low frequency vibrations from the assembly seem to transmit through your hands and throw off the judgement by screwing up your perception. Also, the entire lower midrange, midbass and bass range is shelved upwards using this technique to model the response. The pad modification, btw, does not increase any bass or 'thickness' of sound, this only happens when you use your hands to physically press in the headphone to your head. The smoothness correction in the midrange is also not achieved by pressing in the pads as you attempted. I have two set of pads[one compressed, one stock] and I have had two K501s at my disposal in the past to compare them side by side. I prefer the sound of the pad modification. I happened to have the appropropriate measurement files saved on this computer, that represent the relative differences between the discussed states, so here they are:

1: OEM pad pressed down physically.
2. OEM pad. Fingers placed around the edges in the configuration used to press down on 1. This is a control measurement, used to determine differences caused by finger/hand obstruction(s) involved in 1.
3: Modded pad.
4: OEM pad.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Would someone be able to/interested in taking measurements using this mod?

Note: I only put the blu-tac on the center 3 holes. Putting it over all of them seemed to bloat the bass too much. The center 3 seemed to just make it more prominent.

I'll try to get around to doing a set of measurments this week. So far as 'anyone', I do suppose you were referring to me? Actually, I have not noticed anyone on the head-fi forum that can produce consistant/reliable measurements on headphones, since they seem to refuse to put a little bit of effort into assembling a jig to get repeatable measurements.

-Chris

 

[nm2285]

Yeah that'd be great if you could do them. I only said anyone in case others were able to so as not to just bother you. I'm excited to see the results, because I do believe there's an emphasis on the bass now. However, since I haven't had them long nor have a second pair without blu-tac to compare, I can't be sure.

 

[warpdrive]

Did you ever consider the 595's? I heard these and like them very very much. A slightly more forward treble than the Sennheiser 580/590/600 but still very accurate tonally across the range