HDMI 1.3 Q&A Session

<A href="http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/HDMI13specificationQA.php"><IMG style="WIDTH: 93px; HEIGHT: 100px" alt=[CIEchart] hspace=10 src="http://www.audioholics.com/news/thumbs/CIEchart_th.jpg" align=left border=0></A>HDMI 1.3 has been the talk of the forums lately. Everyone wants to know what's going on with the new spec and what it means to the current and future crop of AV devices. We were fortunate enough to be able to do a brief Question and Answer exchange with Leslie Chard, President of HDMI Licensing, LLC to get a better idea of the recent changes to the HDMI spec. In particular we were interested in both the audio and video differences found in HDMI 1.3. Read on to find out the interesting results of our Q&amp;A session.

[Read the Article]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D

davo

Full Audioholic
This seems to be the tip of the iceburg as far as 'future proofing' is concerned. Now I can splash out on gear that will be good for 10 years, not 2.
Prospective set up:

NAD pre-amp, 8.2 channel
NAD 8 channel power amp
PS3
150 cm plasma/lcd/OLED display
current speakers will have to do for a while
massaging recliner:p

Just got to tell the wife...:eek:
 
Canada North

Canada North

Audioholic Intern
This is Very Misleading and not accurate

The following statement from the article is very misleading and makes it sound like they just "invented" colour.

"(1)The new xvYCC color standard is a real innovation. (2)Current color standards represent only a small portion of colors that are viewable by the human eye. Take a look at the diagram (below). This is a standard type of diagram used to display color spaces (the colors that can be depicted by a given device). (3)The shaded area represents the colors in nature that the human eye can see. The triangle is a representation of the RGB color space. These are the colors that this color space can define. As you can see, this means that such devices cannot accurately represent many colors that exist in nature – leading to the sometimes (4)“cartoony” look that you see on some displays. (5)What is worse is that current display technologies, such as backlit LCD displays, can display colors far beyond those described by previously existing color space standards. R B G"

(1)The first thing to point out is the xvYCC colour standard is only a real innovation for Digital Display and Recording.

(2)Colour is created with light. Without light there is no colour. The RGB Colour space is still the largest available. I have not heard of any devise that can display more colours than RGB. That would be a huge headling in the graphics industry. This is why all of those people with CRT's are still holding on to them with a death grip. A good quality CRT will still display the largest colour space

(3)The Colour space in nature is much larger. We have not been able to produce a consumer appliance that can enlargen the colour space. It has been done in a lab using CRT type equipment. In nature there is a constant variation in Luminosity, also wave lengths of colour may only be partially represented (Example on a forest floor under all of the trees, in nature, much of the green color spectrum is removed dynamically by the tree canopy above. This will make colours that you can not see mechanically. Any display technology that we have created to date will not "produce" the green colour to give you "Like" colours, not "filter" out the green.

(4) I have yet to see anything other than a Cartoon look Cartoony on my 21" Viewsonic CRT monitor or any good CRT television. The banding comes "not" from being unable to define a colour, it comes from not being able to display all of the colours it is supposed to. The devise is unable to produce the required light wavelength.

(5) This is complete marketing "hyper-speak" and completely false. This is only true if one speaks of Digital descriptions of colour. I can describe every colour in the universe using a digital code, and my LCD monitor may understand each digital code, but it still can't display all of those described colours (see point 3).

People seem to miss the most important point with colour. If you look at the colour space picture, it is not how large the triangle is, its how smooth and even it is. This is why CRT's always looked good. LCD's usually have a colour space that leans towards the red wavelengths. I have always found that red can look absolutly spectacular on LCD's. but LCD's clip the corners of the green and blue wavelengths. Plasma is known for producing amazing blue colours. But nether one of these technologies produces more colours than an RGB CRT screen. Different yes, larger no.

But if it all came down to picture quality, "just picture quality", I would still buy a CRT.
 
J

JackT

Audioholic
Regarding your point 4 above, I thought that was a little odd myself. I never heard of banding on a display being caused by insufficient bit depth of the color information. The dynamic range of the display is far lower than the dynamic range of the display data. Is this basically what you were saying there?
 
Canada North

Canada North

Audioholic Intern
JackT said:
Regarding your point 4 above, I thought that was a little odd myself. I never heard of banding on a display being caused by insufficient bit depth of the color information. The dynamic range of the display is far lower than the dynamic range of the display data. Is this basically what you were saying there?
Yes and No. If the bit depth drops really low you can get a lot of banding. 8 bit colour will show a lot of banding, 16 bit will show some banding. Above this level there is no visible banding in digital terms.

The thing to remember is that CRT's were designed before the digital revolution. When they designed the technologies they did a great job. They created cabling, TV sets, cameras that could produce what amounts to 24 bit colour. The original television standard was not RGB but the L*A*B" colour space. Lab is based on Luminosity from 1 to 100 and two chroma components (red to green/blue to yellow). So for a CRT the dynamic range of the display is far lower than the dynamic range of the display data.

The key to the new Digital system is "algorithms". With LCD's the colour gamut is going to be controlled by the colour(Warmth) of the source florescent. Knowing this I can use an Algorithm to define all of the colours that the display can show and create a smooth graduated picture. (Example:
I can not produce Yellow Value 51588, but I can produce Yellow Value 51286, I would substitute the values and run an algorithm to produce a smooth gradiant using the new Yellow Value 51286. This is what Sony has done with thier really high end displays. The electronics and processing are very expensive.

The banding though is inherent in the technology because LCD's and Plasmas still cannot produce 24 bit colour(which basicly is the entire RGB spectrum 16.7 Million Colours).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for all your insights. It would appear that you are in this field of light, perhaps in research up in the cold North?
 
Canada North

Canada North

Audioholic Intern
mtrycrafts said:
Thanks for all your insights. It would appear that you are in this field of light, perhaps in research up in the cold North?
:p I've spent years in graphic design and printing. I've had to sit through every Adobe and Quark Express seminar known to man. I then became known as the monitor calibration guy so I spent many a day locked in Viewsonic's labs with very energetic engineers. They could tell you about the most insignificant detail of a colour control chip to the point that your ears were ready to bleed.

I still remember the day that we sent a entire magazine for printing and the printer sent back a proof to my office... Every bit of skin tone through the entire magazine was purple/grey... I phoned the printer and asked them to look at the proof, his reply... "I thought it was supposed to be that way" ... My reply..."you didn't notice the F**king Safeway logo is Turd Brown"... all one hour before press:eek:
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
I agree with Mtry. Excellent post Canada North! :)

SheepStar(Proud CRT owner)
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
......good stuff, Canada North....if you continue to post on a regular basis, your monthly Audioholics dues will be waived.....
 
E

ellover009

Audioholic Intern
But honestly guys is the wait worth it? I want to get a ps3 and hopefully take advantage of it's features, Home audio receiver's is not something you replace often, it's once of those once in a decade or more things unless something really drastic changes the ways things are. I had my eyes on the Denon 2807, but would love to be a little more up to date because it's one of those once in a great while things. So long story short, get the denon or wait a few more months for the new hdmi?
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Canada North said:
...This is why CRT's always looked good. LCD's usually have a colour space that leans towards the red wavelengths. I have always found that red can look absolutly spectacular on LCD's. but LCD's clip the corners of the green and blue wavelengths. Plasma is known for producing amazing blue colours. But nether one of these technologies produces more colours than an RGB CRT screen. Different yes, larger no.

But if it all came down to picture quality, "just picture quality", I would still buy a CRT.
I agree with you regarding CRT's, but I have to say, blues and yellows - at least to me, look outstanding on LCD's. I've always felt reds and greens were superior on plasma displays.
 
Canada North

Canada North

Audioholic Intern
ellover009 said:
But honestly guys is the wait worth it? I want to get a ps3 and hopefully take advantage of it's features, Home audio receiver's is not something you replace often, it's once of those once in a decade or more things unless something really drastic changes the ways things are. I had my eyes on the Denon 2807, but would love to be a little more up to date because it's one of those once in a great while things. So long story short, get the denon or wait a few more months for the new hdmi?
I would say that it is going to be more than a couple of months. More like years! If this is the only thing holding you back, then bite the bullet and buy! :D

In my experience with all technologies, we can introduce them, but it takes us ages to actually get them to work efficiently. Take computers for example. Game Software is finally being written that take full advantage of Direct X7, but they are just about to release direct X10. Yes they may say that they use Super Scaling Goblty Gook 5 which is only available in Direct X10. But by the time Video Cards can use this feature they are on Direct X11 and no one remembers the game any more. Such is the way of technology in the twenty first century.

Think about it... they released Blu-Ray Disks and Players... but they can't even manufacture High Density Blu-Ray Disks(50GB) reliably... This is after how may years of planning???? The whole release of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD just reaks of Many Moron Monkeys! as a friend of mine would say.:p
 
Canada North

Canada North

Audioholic Intern
Buckeyefan 1 said:
I agree with you regarding CRT's, but I have to say, blues and yellows - at least to me, look outstanding on LCD's. I've always felt reds and greens were superior on plasma displays.
This is true now. LCD's use to use the harshest blueish white backlight to give high contrast ratios. This had the side effect of producing really great reds and oranges. It is amazing what changing the backlight can do to the image. I think now that they purposely manipulate the colour to make the greens and blues pop. They are manipulating the target market... Males
 
E

ellover009

Audioholic Intern
I have a sony fw900 sony crt 34inches of pc goodness, I am not trading this baby in for any lcd just yet. LCD suck at scaling, I wanna play a game and standar resolution slows down, I tell the monitor and it bends over to a lower rosolution, I wanna crank it up I can crank it up, love flexibility.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top