HDMI 1.3 or Analog outs for audio?

[Chris_]

Hello all.. I am new to the Home Theater world, so please bear with me...

I am setting up a home theater system now, a projector and Oppo BDP-83 Blu-Ray player are in place. I have a relatively high end 2 channel system for playing vinyl, and this needs to be able to stand alone. I hope to use the main speakers for both systems. ( even if it means switching the input switch on the back of an amp, or some equivalent monkeying around) The speakers are a DIY transmission line horn design, single driver ( Jordan JX92s MTL) and sound quite good. I intend on building a twin mouth horn center channel, or possibly adapting the transmission line plan into a center friendly cabinet. Not sure whether the rear/ sides will be horns or sealed box monitors.

This will be a 5.1 system.

Currently I have a Linn Sizmik 10.25 active sub running, but am considering building a sealed box for an 18" Precision Devices PD1850 driver I have in storage. It would be run from a separate QSC amp, crossed with an external DBX crossover, probably at 100-120hz +/- ( already have all this stuff)

The speakers are good, not sure whether an 18" sub is too much for a home theater...

My question is about receivers......

I am not a Blu Ray fanatic, though picture quality is a plus, Sound quality is important.

I have looked at many available options, and am a bit confused.... I have looked at the Rotel RSX-1550, and also at the Pioneer SC-27. I wonder about connecting direct between the Blu-Ray player and the projector, and using a high quality, but not current HDMI processor, like maybe a Krell, or Anthem, and connecting the audio through the analog outs on the back of the Oppo BDP-83. Even thought about having the analog stage of the Oppo modified to optimize analog output for this. Would it be better to use a newer HDMI 1.3 processor, such as the Pioneer SC-27, or the Rotel RSX-1550?

Will it be acceptable to use an older, but high quality processor, run the HDMI direct to the projector, and use the analog outs for audio?

Is the DAC in the Oppo BDP-83 decent? Worth upgrading? Will the modern HDMI 1.3 be better for audio through a receiver such as the Pioneer SC-27? From an audiophile standpoint, the A/V receivers such as the Pioneer or Rotel, are mainstream junk.

I just replaced a 3 year old Sony DVD player with the Oppo. The increase in picture and sound quality of the Oppo is immediately apparent.

Money is an issue here..... I am willing to do what I need to do, but do not want to spend more than I need to . There are a lot of nice second hand receivers available that no longer meet current HDMI spec.

What benefits will a receiver that handles HDMI 1.3 offer over running direct to the projector? (video)

Is the HDMI sound going to be that much better? Does this come down to which DAC is better, the one in the player, or the one in the receiver? What about preamp quality?

18" sub???

Any help here is greatly appreciated...

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello all.. I am new to the Home Theater world, so please bear with me...

I am setting up a home theater system now, a projector and Oppo BDP-83 Blu-Ray player are in place. I have a relatively high end 2 channel system for playing vinyl, and this needs to be able to stand alone. I hope to use the main speakers for both systems. ( even if it means switching the input switch on the back of an amp, or some equivalent monkeying around) The speakers are a DIY transmission line horn design, single driver ( Jordan JX92s MTL) and sound quite good. I intend on building a twin mouth horn center channel, or possibly adapting the transmission line plan into a center friendly cabinet. Not sure whether the rear/ sides will be horns or sealed box monitors.

This will be a 5.1 system.

Currently I have a Linn Sizmik 10.25 active sub running, but am considering building a sealed box for an 18" Precision Devices PD1850 driver I have in storage. It would be run from a separate QSC amp, crossed with an external DBX crossover, probably at 100-120hz +/- ( already have all this stuff)

The speakers are good, not sure whether an 18" sub is too much for a home theater...

My question is about receivers......

I am not a Blu Ray fanatic, though picture quality is a plus, Sound quality is important.

I have looked at many available options, and am a bit confused.... I have looked at the Rotel RSX-1550, and also at the Pioneer SC-27. I wonder about connecting direct between the Blu-Ray player and the projector, and using a high quality, but not current HDMI processor, like maybe a Krell, or Anthem, and connecting the audio through the analog outs on the back of the Oppo BDP-83. Even thought about having the analog stage of the Oppo modified to optimize analog output for this. Would it be better to use a newer HDMI 1.3 processor, such as the Pioneer SC-27, or the Rotel RSX-1550?

Will it be acceptable to use an older, but high quality processor, run the HDMI direct to the projector, and use the analog outs for audio?

Is the DAC in the Oppo BDP-83 decent? Worth upgrading? Will the modern HDMI 1.3 be better for audio through a receiver such as the Pioneer SC-27? From an audiophile standpoint, the A/V receivers such as the Pioneer or Rotel, are mainstream junk.

I just replaced a 3 year old Sony DVD player with the Oppo. The increase in picture and sound quality of the Oppo is immediately apparent.

Money is an issue here..... I am willing to do what I need to do, but do not want to spend more than I need to . There are a lot of nice second hand receivers available that no longer meet current HDMI spec.

What benefits will a receiver that handles HDMI 1.3 offer over running direct to the projector? (video)

Is the HDMI sound going to be that much better? Does this come down to which DAC is better, the one in the player, or the one in the receiver? What about preamp quality?

18" sub???

Any help here is greatly appreciated...

With the standard and complexity of your system, I would not use a receiver. I have never owned a receiver of any type, and regard putting complex processing circuits in with seven powerful amps as insane.

I have just purchased the Marantz AV 8003 tuner pre/pro and I'm very pleased with it.

You can read my review here.

I reviewed the Audyssey system it sports separately.

There is absolutely no need for complex switching. If you put the Marantz into pure select mode, you have as close to a wire with gain, and processing and video circuits are off, with a signal to noise of 105 db!

I power my system with Quad amps, but any good amps will be fine.

I also use the Oppo BD-83. The new loss less audio codecs are a big improvement by the way.

I'm curious about your speakers as TLs and horns a very different animals.

I'm familiar with your Jordans.

I use a largely TL system, only the surround are not TL. The mains are dual TLs as are the surround backs. The center is a single TL.

You can click on my signature and browse.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The only real advantage of HDMI over analog is convinience and less wires.

With Blu-ray & using 5.1 analog output, you won't hear much difference (if any) in sound quality or picture quality.

Now, with that being said, I think every system is a little different.

In my experience, bitstreaming (via HDMI or Optical/Coaxial) gives ME the best sound quality. It seems to me that the soundstage is more dynamic, the bass and surround sound are more pronounced when I used bitstreaming instead of the 5.1 analog outputs.

But every case may be different.

 

[Chris_]

Oops.. I did not know enough about speaker types to know that Transmission Line is not also a type of horn... But... I do know how to follow plans, and to a lesser degree, how to select them.

After hearing single driver speakers, I am hooked....

For the center channel, since I cannot find a suitable plan, I had planned on either adapting the Jordan VTL plan ( from their website) (It is the VTL cabinet design that are my mains) preserving the dimensions, but making it a horizontal box to fit the space, or building a twin mouth horn like the Cardersound Kyler. I have researched and built enough horn designs to get myself in trouble....

As an aside, there are a number of plans at 'Spawn Family of Double Horns'
Some of these sound quite good.. Also a neat looking design for the Jordan driver at mh-audio.nl

I just picked up a pair of Audio Nirvana Cast Super 8 drivers, couldn't help it, the price was right.. I will probably try them somewhere in the system after they are in cabinets.

The idea of a receiver did give me the 'willies' for the reasons mentioned. I have never owned a receiver either. Space is a concern, the rack is already large, loaded with turntables and associated gear, I was looking forward to a single unit that 'did sound' for the AV portion. It would be a problem if the lesser quality 5.1 system did not sound as interesting for movies as the 2 channel system.

Interesting reading your review of the Audessey system, I wondered if it is necessary.. Theoretically it sounds good, but engineering beforehand, combined with quality gear should go a long way towards this, and keeping the clutter out of the signal chain has it's benefits. The Oppo has a reasonably detailed setup for calculating delay for speaker locations.

What about using an older, but high quality AV pre/pro, only for the sound? Something simple , with no room correction, delays, nothing but a gain to control five channels and a sub.. using the setup in the Oppo for speaker delay.


Also, What about the sub? Is a downward firing 18" in a sealed box too much?

 

[TLS Guy]

Oops.. I did not know enough about speaker types to know that Transmission Line is not also a type of horn... But... I do know how to follow plans, and to a lesser degree, how to select them.

After hearing single driver speakers, I am hooked....

For the center channel, since I cannot find a suitable plan, I had planned on either adapting the Jordan VTL plan ( from their website) (It is the VTL cabinet design that are my mains) preserving the dimensions, but making it a horizontal box to fit the space, or building a twin mouth horn like the Cardersound Kyler. I have researched and built enough horn designs to get myself in trouble....

As an aside, there are a number of plans at 'Spawn Family of Double Horns'
Some of these sound quite good.. Also a neat looking design for the Jordan driver at mh-audio.nl

I just picked up a pair of Audio Nirvana Cast Super 8 drivers, couldn't help it, the price was right.. I will probably try them somewhere in the system after they are in cabinets.

The idea of a receiver did give me the 'willies' for the reasons mentioned. I have never owned a receiver either. Space is a concern, the rack is already large, loaded with turntables and associated gear, I was looking forward to a single unit that 'did sound' for the AV portion. It would be a problem if the lesser quality 5.1 system did not sound as interesting for movies as the 2 channel system.

Interesting reading your review of the Audessey system, I wondered if it is necessary.. Theoretically it sounds good, but engineering beforehand, combined with quality gear should go a long way towards this, and keeping the clutter out of the signal chain has it's benefits. The Oppo has a reasonably detailed setup for calculating delay for speaker locations.

What about using an older, but high quality AV pre/pro, only for the sound? Something simple , with no room correction, delays, nothing but a gain to control five channels and a sub.. using the setup in the Oppo for speaker delay.


Also, What about the sub? Is a downward firing 18" in a sealed box too much?

You have a lot of confusion. Your VTL cabinets are a variety of TL, known as an acoustic labyrinth. It is not a horn. The Spawn Family designs are horns, However they are in no way suitable for the Jordan drivers. For horns you need low Q drivers, and the Jordans are fairly high.

I go back a ways with Ted Jordan. I was present when Ted and Leslie Watts first demonstrated the Jordan Watts Mk1 module in April 1961.

The Mk 1 had a half life of 20 minutes! So over the debacle Ted left and the Mk2 had to be developed.

When I was in Canada during the seventies, I was the Canadian agent for Jordan Watts. I was largely responsible for the Mk 3 module.

Your driver is the direct descendant of the Jordan Watts module.

Here is a link to my Jordan Watts page, where you can also stream an interview I did with Leslie Watts back in 1976.

If you want an older pre/pro then I have one for sale.

I think an 18 sub will be fine, but not down firing. You will need to cross the Jordans over at 100 Hz at least.

I am still a full ranger at heart, however the modules and Ted's unit are outclassed. The unit is a good midrange driver. However for modern digital sources, with the large dynamic range they no longer really cut it.

I do however keep a pair of TL loaded modules as reference to keep mo honest. If any speakers of mine have a significantly different tonal balance to those modules, I know there is trouble to look for.

May be you could post pictures of your rack?

Here is my studio album.

Here is my construction album.

I thoroughly recommend that center speaker. That SEAS coaxial is excellent. Those Audio Nirvana speakers look nasty, with very old fashioned rolled surrounds.

I looked at the TL part of the Ah site, and it is rife with error.

The best small full ranger for horn loading is the Lowther. That is easily the best full ranger for horn loading, with a pedigree right back to Paul Voight who founded the company before WW II.

However even they are outclassed now.

I moved away from single full range drivers in 1984 at the coming of age of the digital era. From then on the current crop of full rangers do not give the required all round performance.

However with the right facilities and money, I'm sure I could develop the JW module into a high powered mid unit from 200 Hz to 6 kHz. If we had a really good high powered midband driver that di not have to be crossed in the speech discrimination band, it would be a big advance.

Let me know if you are interested in the Rotel pre/pro.

 

[jamie2112]

Mark, there are finger smudges on the Marantz.I have come to expect way more from you Doc...

 

[TLS Guy]

Mark, there are finger smudges on the Marantz.I have come to expect way more from you Doc...

I know, I noticed that after I loaded the picture. I will take better pictures next week.

I have to get my loon raft ready for ice out, as soon as I get back to Benedict tomorrow. After the raft is rigged I will get round to it.

 

[Chris_]

Good to see the idlers in your system... currently I have 5 301s, 2 401s, one td124, an SP10 MKII, a couple of LP12s, an Empire 208, and a Teres project. My business is Woodsong Audio, I build plinths for these decks.. Oh yeah, a couple of 1200s in the mix as well...

Yes the Jordan VTLs do lack in the Mid-bass, and might be a bit bright sometimes. I had thought about taking the 10" drivers out of an old set of Klipsch KLF10s, building some cabinets for them and crossing them between about 90hz and 300hz, that would probably solve the mid-bass issue, at least for dance parties..

Pre/pros that had caught my attention are the Krell HTS and the Anthem AVM30... Any thoughts on these?

Also... any feelings against multi-channel amps, like a B&K Ref 200.5? By using the input selector on the back of the amp, the question of how to integrate the front speakers into both systems is answered. Also possible that the Audio Nirvanas might sound good enough to tempt me to keep the Art Audio PX-25, and sell the Artemis Labs LA-1, running direct from the Vinyl Reference into the PX-25, two completely separate systems..

Today, my pile of electronics is just that, all huddled together on mish-mash tables and stands. By the end of the week, the new rack will be complete.. Photos would be embarrassing today.... I will post some photos a bit later on..

 

[jostenmeat]

I am SURE I that I am missing something here, but, I have a pretty hard time understanding why one would forgo HDMI in preference to mch analogs. You cannot add post processing, typically give up a lot in terms of bass mgmt, and perhaps other important things as well.

What is the budget? For Anthem, if it was me, might as well go all the way to the D2v. In researching for someone else here recently, it does use superior supporting chips to the AVM50, at the same price too (or so I was told).

The Denon AVP is a monster pre/pro too. There is a dedicated support/owners page here (which was created with the help of an Audioholics member to boot ):

http://avppoaowners.wetpaint.com/

 

[Chris_]

Guess it comes down to budget... If $$$$$ was not a concern, I would just buy whatever I wanted.. Currently, with the audio going through a decent system, I am getting good sound. With the player going straight to the projector through HDMI, a good picture.. With a 'run of the mill' processor, sound quality goes down. The complete system that is up to current spec, HDMI 1.3/4, and with high quality preamp/ signal processing, is spendy.... Less can sometimes be more...The analog outs on the Oppo BDP are decent, decoded, and the player can be set to delay, gain trim, etc... It seems to me that I will be '95% there', maybe better, by getting a used processor with high quality preamp circuitry, and forgoing HDMI except between the projector and the player... With speaker choice, and decent amplification, the sound should be good, no?

Some of the benefits of the Blu-ray HDMI technology, I can live without...

An older Anthem or Krell processor without HDMI can be had for around $1000, and the remaining necessary amplification another $1000-$1500. I am somewhat doubtful that current spec processor + amplification, in this price range will deliver the same level of sound quality...

Also, mods can be done to the analog output stage in the Oppo to further increase its quality.

The reason I joined this forum, and posted, is for guidance... forgive me, I know not what to do....



Currently, my movies through my 2 channel system sound good... It would be a shame to 'upgrade' to a 5.1 system, and experience a significant drop in sound quality..

 

[TLS Guy]

Guess it comes down to budget... If $$$$$ was not a concern, I would just buy whatever I wanted.. Currently, with the audio going through a decent system, I am getting good sound. With the player going straight to the projector through HDMI, a good picture.. With a 'run of the mill' processor, sound quality goes down. The complete system that is up to current spec, HDMI 1.3/4, and with high quality preamp/ signal processing, is spendy.... Less can sometimes be more...The analog outs on the Oppo BDP are decent, decoded, and the player can be set to delay, gain trim, etc... It seems to me that I will be '95% there', maybe better, by getting a used processor with high quality preamp circuitry, and forgoing HDMI except between the projector and the player... With speaker choice, and decent amplification, the sound should be good, no?

Some of the benefits of the Blu-ray HDMI technology, I can live without...

An older Anthem or Krell processor without HDMI can be had for around $1000, and the remaining necessary amplification another $1000-$1500. I am somewhat doubtful that current spec processor + amplification, in this price range will deliver the same level of sound quality...

Also, mods can be done to the analog output stage in the Oppo to further increase its quality.

The reason I joined this forum, and posted, is for guidance... forgive me, I know not what to do....



Currently, my movies through my 2 channel system sound good... It would be a shame to 'upgrade' to a 5.1 system, and experience a significant drop in sound quality..

The loss less codecs are fabulous. I guarantee the the Marantz Av 8003 would not degrade your sound in any way, and will be far superior to an older unit no matter who made it.

And to be quite honest your speakers though I have a soft spot for them are quite a long way from what can be achieved now. If that were not so, I would be using them.

 

[Chris_]

I am interested in the Rotel...