HD signal on a SD CRT - Wow; Why?

[Buckeyefan 1]

Out of curiosity, I started surfing the 700 channels on my Explorer 8300HD. I still have a 36" Toshiba CRT -non HD ready- in the family room - very happy with the picture (at the time is was their top of the line). The TWC cable guy didn't have any "non HD" DVR cable boxes, so I got "stuck" with a HD/DVR receiver. I put on TNT-HD Friday night - something like channel 750 through Time Warner. They were showing Jurassic Park III.

First off, I was a little surprised my tv was able to receive the signal. It was shown (obviously) in wide screen - gray bars on the top and bottom as opposed to the black ones on a DVD. I thought that picture seemed a little too sharp and "perfect" for my CRT. It seemed better than (probably equal to) DVD with the sharpness and contrast all the way up! I put on our normal TNT channel - something like channel 29 and kept hitting "prev ch." The difference is night and day.

I then checked the rest of the HD channels to see if they were all of superior quality compared to standard cable feeds. They were. Now I've been in numerous stores, seen HD on numerous types of TV's, and am amazed at the clarity, color, and contrast of this standard CRT set with a HD signal. The Explorer 8300HD is still reading 480I, so I'm sure I'm not getting HD, but if you saw the difference in the standard cable feed compared to the HD feed, your jaw would drop.

What's the deal? Are standard higher quality CRT's more capable than we all thought? Is it more the signal than the TV? Does this mean with a 1080i set, you definitely want to go with a higher end set? This really opens up a can of worms. I'd love to bring home a 32" HD ready CRT, a 32" flat screen LCD, and a 42" plasma display to compare them all side by side. I've never seen a 42" EDTV plasma with a picture this good - even the Panasonic's. And I've been shopping.

 

[Duffinator]

What's the deal? Are standard higher quality CRT's more capable than we all thought? Is it more the signal than the TV? Does this mean with a 1080i set, you definitely want to go with a higher end set? This really opens up a can of worms. I'd love to bring home a 32" HD ready CRT, a 32" flat screen LCD, and a 42" plasma display to compare them all side by side. I've never seen a 42" EDTV plasma with a picture this good - even the Panasonic's. And I've been shopping.

They are more capable but it's the higher resolution picture that's making the difference. And it would be even better if your set accepted 480P. BMX is always suggesting to people to buy an EDTV if they are sitting far enough away. A downconverted HD picture does look much better than an SD picture on a non-HD set. You will notice the quality of an HD display more compared to an ED sitting closer to the set. It's an option for those that want to save on the set but I'll be buying nothing but HD capable sets going forward. I guess the same will apply to an HD DVD format DVD as well using component cables at 480P.

 

[mkossler]

Let me get this straight. I also have a 36" Toshiba CRT, their "Cinema Series" that was the best non-HD available at the time.

You are telling me I can enable HD on my digital cable, and I will be able to view the content? Which inputs are you using? Component ("Colorstream")? S-Video?

If the picture is that much better, and I can get digital sound, I'm soo there for the 9.95/month Comcast charges for HD!

Ohhhh, Billy Baroo! Please, please please...

 

[Jedi2016]

Is your TV one of those that supports anamorphic widescreen on a 4:3 display? Because that will increase the display quality of widescreen images (like DVDs). Or is that one of those TVs that someone already mentioned? (call me a newb, but I've no clue what an EDTV is.. hehe).

 

[Duffinator]

Is your TV one of those that supports anamorphic widescreen on a 4:3 display? Because that will increase the display quality of widescreen images (like DVDs). Or is that one of those TVs that someone already mentioned? (call me a newb, but I've no clue what an EDTV is.. hehe).

EDTV is 480P. So in other words it able to display a progressive scan image from your DVD player, cable box, or HTPC at 480 lines of resolution. HD is either 720P, 1080i, or 1080P.

mklosser, you got it. Does your set support 480P? If so it will look even better than Buck's.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Let me get this straight. I also have a 36" Toshiba CRT, their "Cinema Series" that was the best non-HD available at the time.

You are telling me I can enable HD on my digital cable, and I will be able to view the content? Which inputs are you using? Component ("Colorstream")? S-Video?

If the picture is that much better, and I can get digital sound, I'm soo there for the 9.95/month Comcast charges for HD!

Ohhhh, Billy Baroo! Please, please please...

That's mine! Cinema Series with dual tuner PIP. 4:3 aspect ratio. I'm using the Toshiba's Colorstream input from my Denon's component out. I'm also using component cables from the Explorer 8300HD cable box to the Denon's component "input." For audio, I use a digital coax to the receiver. For 480i, it's unbelievable. It's DVD plus quality.

 

[MDS]

I have access to a few HD channels but when I try them on my Toshiba 32" CRT, all I get is sound and a black picture. The problem no doubt is that this tv doesn't have component video inputs.

 

[BMXTRIX]

CRT is still the gold standard when it comes to video. DLP, LCD, LCoS, and plasma don't come close to the quality of CRT.

So, if you were to compare a 36" CRT HDTV with a clean HD signal to a 37" HD plasma, the CRT will simply blow it away in most regards. Thin comes with a price and that price is felt, most definitely, in image quality.

Now, I am all for EDTV from the right distance, but EDTVs most DEFINITELY accept 720p and 1080i inputs. That is not the same as a CRT which does not accept those inputs. Especially considering how schmuckity 42" 'HD' models are.

FYI: HD is not specified in televisions as 720p, or 1080i. It is specified as any display that is native 16:9 format and has at least 720 lines of resolution. So, the weird sizes like 1024x768 count when it is a 16:9 format.

Heck, if I were to make a single pixel, REALLY wide, you could have a 1x720 setup and call it 'HDTV' and it would be accurate according to 'official' standards.

Blech - that was off subject.

HDTV is far superior to DVD, if you think it is only slightly better, than you definitely are missing out on what HD looks like on a native HD setup. HD contains about four times as much information as DVD. Not to shabby. So, if you think DVD looks great, imagine what 4 times DVD looks like.

Now, compared with the analog channels down in the sub 100 range of your cable box, there is no question that HD looks way better. Also, if you have HBO, compare the HD channels to digital HBO which should look really good. Near DVD quality. The step up to HD with a true 16:9 native ratio screen in CRT will blow everything away.

But, the size limitation may kill you if you want to go BIG.

 

[Topher]

I don't have cable so I'm not sure, but wouldn't the HD channels be less compressed than the regular channels?

 

[Duffinator]

I don't have cable so I'm not sure, but wouldn't the HD channels be less compressed than the regular channels?

I think the opposite is true and I believe all digital signals have some sort of compression going on from cable and sat providers. But HD has more lines or resolution and a lot more pixels available and that's what gives you the better picture quality. I believe the new MPEG 4 standard has the ability to compress the video signal more than MPEG 2 but delivers the same or better picture quality.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I don't have cable so I'm not sure, but wouldn't the HD channels be less compressed than the regular channels?

There is a LOT more data in a HD channel than in a SD channel. So, even if the compression algorithym were the same - if it makes the video 1/10th of the original size, the HD channel would still be far 'larger' in size than the SD channel.

I really am not sure what level of compression is run on HD vs. SD channels, but they are converting everything to MPEG2 format (for digital channels) and that certain channels most definitely have more compression than others. While digital HBO looked great at my home, HBO 3 didn't look nearly as good. They were both digital, but anything that wasn't 'HBO' was knocked down a bit in quality to free up space I imagine. It makes sense that less viewed channels would not be allocated the same resources as more viewed channels.

I'm really interested in seeing what happens when MPEG4 becomes more of a standard and how that migh affect things.

 

[SacKen]

Let me get this straight. I also have a 36" Toshiba CRT, their "Cinema Series" that was the best non-HD available at the time.

You are telling me I can enable HD on my digital cable, and I will be able to view the content? Which inputs are you using? Component ("Colorstream")? S-Video?

If the picture is that much better, and I can get digital sound, I'm soo there for the 9.95/month Comcast charges for HD!

Ohhhh, Billy Baroo! Please, please please...

If your Comcast is the same as Comcast here in Sacramento, then the HD channels are broadcasted in the free-and-clear (i.e. unscrambled). When I first got my TV that had a built-in HD tuner, I only had analog cable. I was able to get the HD channels from the coax plugged directly into my TV without upgrading my service. I upgraded to their digital package just so I could get the guide and built-in DVR.

If you have had your digital box for a few years (since before Comcast had HD) then you will probably just need to swap your box for their latest model that is HD capable. A 1-time fee and not a monthly upgrade cost.

 

[SacKen]

I don't have any experience with the satellite companies, but @#$! Comcast Cable seems to compress the HD picture so much that you get serious pixelation if there is any major movement in the picture. Maybe if they stopped adding all of the stupid channels that only 3 people watch, then they would have more bandwidth for higher quality on the channels that matter.

 

[mkossler]

Ay-yi-yi! Great news, Duff & Buck! I will be definitely talking to Comcast tomorrow about turning on HD.

Buck, I have things set up identically to yours. Not for nothing, but this has been one great non-HD telly. DVD display quality has been outstanding IMO given the limits of the available technology on this Cinema Series platform, but now I'm totally psyched to try HD sources.

SacKen, I'm sure it's the same Comcast, but HD is not enabled by default. At any rate, I would have to assume that a decoder that supports ATSC and cable card would be a minimum requirement. At any rate, I feel your pain WRT to the thrice-damned compression that I see on nearly every digital channel.

All I'm saying, is I really think they could go ahead and skip the "Wings- Kitchen Utensils" or "Discovery - Dog Hair" channels with little impact to the existing customer base...