Having trouble deciding between budget Pioneer receivers

[DJ in TX]

I had a thread over in the loudspeaker forum as my initial questions revolved more around bookshelf speakers, although we did discuss receivers as well. But, I decided to start a new thread here in the receiver forum to get some new insights as I am having second thoughts.

I am planning to treat myself to some Paradigm Atoms soon, but need to decide on a receiver. At first I was looking at the low end Yamaha, until I was told it doesn't do audio over HDMI. Then I stumbled onto the new Pioneer receivers (VSX-519V-K & VSX-819V-K), and they both provide this functionality.

Up til now, I have been leaning toward the 519 as it is $179 through Newegg.com (as opposed to $249 for the 819), and therefore much better for my budget. But, I can't help thinking about the purchase long term. I am a new to audio, and do not know much, but I know that I don't want to regret the purchase a couple months down the line. An extra HDMI port is nice, but I can live without this if need be to save the extra cost. What I am more concerned with are the spec differences that perhaps I don't fully understand. Seems like they are rated the same for power, but what else do I need to know in order to make the best decision. A $70 difference is a big deal to my budget, so the added features would have to really be worth the upgrade.

Can anyone here break this down into layman's terms and let me know specifically what I will go without by opting for the VSX-519?

 

[RPinney]

I had a thread over in the loudspeaker forum as my initial questions revolved more around bookshelf speakers, although we did discuss receivers as well. But, I decided to start a new thread here in the receiver forum to get some new insights as I am having second thoughts.

I am planning to treat myself to some Paradigm Atoms soon, but need to decide on a receiver. At first I was looking at the low end Yamaha, until I was told it doesn't do audio over HDMI. Then I stumbled onto the new Pioneer receivers (VSX-519V-K & VSX-819V-K), and they both provide this functionality.

Up til now, I have been leaning toward the 519 as it is $179 through Newegg.com (as opposed to $249 for the 819), and therefore much better for my budget. But, I can't help thinking about the purchase long term. I am a new to audio, and do not know much, but I know that I don't want to regret the purchase a couple months down the line. An extra HDMI port is nice, but I can live without this if need be to save the extra cost. What I am more concerned with are the spec differences that perhaps I don't fully understand. Seems like they are rated the same for power, but what else do I need to know in order to make the best decision. A $70 difference is a big deal to my budget, so the added features would have to really be worth the upgrade.

Can anyone here break this down into layman's terms and let me know specifically what I will go without by opting for the VSX-519?

I'm very new to receivers (so don't purely go with my advice) also but I have been doing a lot of research on them. Looking it over, it appears that the only differences are that the 819 will decode the new HD audio formats, where the 519 will not (not a problem if you are using a newer blu-ray player which automatically provides this feature). Also, the 1 extra HDMI input. There are probably other, insignificant differences but those are the main ones that I can see.

 

[DJ in TX]

I have heard this elsewhere, although, I don't have a bluray player currently, and probably wont get one for at least 9 monthsa to a year. Hopefully by then most players will have the built in codecs I would need. Although, not sure how to know which ones I am missing.

So, what about audio output from my DVD player (a very old Sony bought in 1998) or my XBox 360, or Cable box? Are there any worries about audio from these sources?

 

[HDPCsound]

The VSX-519V-K is designed specifically as a high definition A/V control center, features HDMI connectivity for sources such as Blu-ray Disc players and HD gaming. A great choice on my oppinion!

 

[RPinney]

Here is a chart that compares the major features...scroll down a little ways to see it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001U74DAA

I was pretty much right other than I missed that, according to the chart, the 519 does not have iPod capabilities

 

[DJ in TX]

Yeah, I have seen that chart before. I guess I am looking for info that may be a bit more technical and/or obscure that a noob, such as myself, may not be aware of. I sometimes wonder if the jibberish that is a standard spec sheet says somthing important, but that I am unable to translate into understandable terms due to my lack of knowledge.

These two do appear to be very similar though, right down to the weight of the unit. Unless someone here has any sort of warnings to provide against either of these models, then I guess I will have to base this on my budget vs. an extra HDMI port and iPod hookups.

As for the made for iPhone/iPod functionality, it seems weird that I would not be able to find a way to hook up my iPod if I wanted to. Sure, it may not have a frontside USB port for convenience, but an iPod dock with audio out would seem to connect just fine in back. I wonder if there is something else that would be missing...maybe that Pioneer user interface that shows iPod album artwork. Of course even without this, I bet i could successfully connect and listen to my iPod.

 

[RPinney]

They are most likely talking about on screen capabilities. I'm sure you can hook it up and play it no problem...just can't control it on screen / with a remote (is my guess)

 

[timmay8612]

Any of you guys know what the build quality/sound quality is like from these things? I'm also considering a Pioneer VSX 818V-K. The price is right, and it has all the features (and more) I need. Will it hold up? Do they sound good?

 

[RPinney]

Any of you guys know what the build quality/sound quality is like from these things? I'm also considering a Pioneer VSX 818V-K. The price is right, and it has all the features (and more) I need. Will it hold up? Do they sound good?

I haven't personally tested it, but judging by the reviews I see no reason to think it won't sound good / hold up'


also, hello from the twin cities =)

 

[anamorphic96]

Some food for thought to the original poster.

If you are going to get a Blue Ray player in around 9 months make sure you get a receiver that decodes new audio formats. I would also look around at other receivers and not just look at the Pioneer. I understand you looked at Yamaha but you should also look at the Denon AVR 590 or Onkyo TX-SR507. Both cost a little bit more but offer better amp sections as well as the Audyssey room correction system. Which is superior to the basic MCACC system on the Pioneers. If you look around you can find some great deals.

On a side note the Pioneer 1019 was recently bench tested and only produced 28 watts with all channels driven. Granted the all channels driven scenario is not realistic but it does call into question the amp section inside. I would imagine the 519 and 819 would be worse.

The Onkyo and Denon typically bench test better. Plus the Denon offers the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ system which also corrects the subwoofer frequencies. This is major plus in my book especially at the 299.00 asking price.

 

[rnatalli]

Some food for thought to the original poster.

If you are going to get a Blue Ray player in around 9 months make sure you get a receiver that decodes new audio formats. I would also look around at other receivers and not just look at the Pioneer. I understand you looked at Yamaha but you should also look at the Denon AVR 590 or Onkyo TX-SR507. Both cost a little bit more but offer better amp sections as well as the Audyssey room correction system. Which is superior to the basic MCACC system on the Pioneers. If you look around you can find some great deals.

On a side note the Pioneer 1019 was recently bench tested and only produced 28 watts with all channels driven. Granted the all channels driven scenario is not realistic but it does call into question the amp section inside. I would imagine the 519 and 819 would be worse.

The Onkyo and Denon typically bench test better. Plus the Denon offers the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ system which also corrects the subwoofer frequencies. This is major plus in my book especially at the 299.00 asking price.

+1 I would invest in the Denon 590/1610. The 1610 can be had for $279 shipped from Electronics Expo using the "RECEIVERSALE" coupon. EE is an authorized dealer.

 

[DJ in TX]

Some food for thought to the original poster.

If you are going to get a Blue Ray player in around 9 months make sure you get a receiver that decodes new audio formats....but you should also look at the Denon AVR 590 or Onkyo TX-SR507. Both cost a little bit more but offer better amp sections as well as the Audyssey room correction system. Which is superior to the basic MCACC system on the Pioneers. If you look around you can find some great deals.

On a side note the Pioneer 1019 was recently bench tested and only produced 28 watts with all channels driven. Granted the all channels driven scenario is not realistic but it does call into question the amp section inside. I would imagine the 519 and 819 would be worse.

The Onkyo and Denon typically bench test better. Plus the Denon offers the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ system which also corrects the subwoofer frequencies. This is major plus in my book especially at the 299.00 asking price.

Hey Anamorphic, I'm glad you posted this reply because it brings up some good questions. All along I felt like maybe I didn't have the full picture of the Pioneers, but no one was providing any criticisms of them, or linking to expert reviews. I tend to put a lot of stock in expert reviews (assuming they are not biased). So I assumed the Pioneers were among the best for the price point ($200 or less).

It's also interesting that you specifically mentioned the Onkyo TX-SR507, because I was going to ask some questions about this very receiver first thing this morning. I read about it in another thread here last night, and was surprised at seeing an Onkyo at such a low price $249.

Then I got to comparing the specs of this Onkyo to the Pioneers (vsx-519 & vsx-819) and this is where a whole new load of confusion started for me. It seems like these receiver brands spec sheets are written by completely different electronics standards or something. Some of the manufacturer claims/ratings are similar, but then the Onkyo seems to indicate a very different method for handling power. Here are some examples:

Onkyo - Power Output
Front L/R 75 W + 75 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
100 W + 100 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%,
2 channels driven, FTC)

Pioneer- Power Output 110W x 5

Those are very different amounts of data, and I am unable to decipher exactly what this means for the Onkyo, and have no clue why the Pioneer would not give more detailed info like the Onkyo. I think the Paradigm atoms that I am getting are 8 ohm speakers, so that would seem to tell me that the Onkyo receiver will be sending 75 Watts per channel at 8 ohms. If so then this would seem to be 35 Watts per channel less than the Pioneer. But maybe I am trying to compare apples to aardvarks here. And maybe I am not interpreting the data correctly. If the Onkyo is capable of sending different amounts of power depending on the ohm rating, does this happen automatically, or would I have to manually adjust this? It os a little troubling if I have to do it manually and then know that if i do it wrong I could hose my brand new speakers.

If anyone can explain the difference in the above power ratings between these two brands, or any other notable differences to where I might be able to understand (like I am a 5th grader maybe), that would be very helpful. I realize it must be very frustrating to try to give guidance to someone with so little knowledge, so I do appreciate your patience and willingness to help. It feels like I need an electrical engineering degree to be able to intelligently shop for a AVR.

Thanks!

 

[DJ in TX]

+1 I would invest in the Denon 590/1610. The 1610 can be had for $279 shipped from Electronics Expo using the "RECEIVERSALE" coupon. EE is an authorized dealer.

FYI...I looked up both of these on the Denon website, and used their compare item tool...they have identical specs apparently, yet the 590 was released one month after the 1610 for $30 less. This seems very odd to me.

 

[anamorphic96]

FYI...I looked up both of these on the Denon website, and used their compare item tool...they have identical specs apparently, yet the 590 was released one month after the 1610 for $30 less. This seems very odd to me.

If you look closer they have some minor differences in features.

 

[DJ in TX]

So does anyone have any thoughts on my above question about the differences in power handling between the pioneer and onkyo receivers I listed above? I really want to try to understand if at all possible. (See post #12 above).

Thanks~

 

[lsiberian]

Some food for thought to the original poster.

If you are going to get a Blue Ray player in around 9 months make sure you get a receiver that decodes new audio formats. I would also look around at other receivers and not just look at the Pioneer. I understand you looked at Yamaha but you should also look at the Denon AVR 590 or Onkyo TX-SR507. Both cost a little bit more but offer better amp sections as well as the Audyssey room correction system. Which is superior to the basic MCACC system on the Pioneers. If you look around you can find some great deals.

On a side note the Pioneer 1019 was recently bench tested and only produced 28 watts with all channels driven. Granted the all channels driven scenario is not realistic but it does call into question the amp section inside. I would imagine the 519 and 819 would be worse.

The Onkyo and Denon typically bench test better. Plus the Denon offers the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ system which also corrects the subwoofer frequencies. This is major plus in my book especially at the 299.00 asking price.

Most players decode the new formats. So he can certainly avoid that part cost wise.

I've used AS and it's not any better than any other system I've used for calibration. Except it's a bigger PITA to run correctly. No system sets crossovers correctly either.

If you want to correct your sub you should get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer.

As far as a bench test goes. 28 watts for all channels is actually pretty good for a low end receiver. Reference level volume is considered 75 db which requires less than a watt to produce. The biggest issue in amps comes with to low of an impedance load.

 

[anamorphic96]

Hey Anamorphic, I'm glad you posted this reply because it brings up some good questions. All along I felt like maybe I didn't have the full picture of the Pioneers, but no one was providing any criticisms of them, or linking to expert reviews. I tend to put a lot of stock in expert reviews (assuming they are not biased). So I assumed the Pioneers were among the best for the price point ($200 or less).

It's also interesting that you specifically mentioned the Onkyo TX-SR507, because I was going to ask some questions about this very receiver first thing this morning. I read about it in another thread here last night, and was surprised at seeing an Onkyo at such a low price $249.

Then I got to comparing the specs of this Onkyo to the Pioneers (vsx-519 & vsx-819) and this is where a whole new load of confusion started for me. It seems like these receiver brands spec sheets are written by completely different electronics standards or something. Some of the manufacturer claims/ratings are similar, but then the Onkyo seems to indicate a very different method for handling power. Here are some examples:

Onkyo - Power Output
Front L/R 75 W + 75 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
100 W + 100 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%,
2 channels driven, FTC)

Pioneer- Power Output 110W x 5

Those are very different amounts of data, and I am unable to decipher exactly what this means for the Onkyo, and have no clue why the Pioneer would not give more detailed info like the Onkyo. I think the Paradigm atoms that I am getting are 8 ohm speakers, so that would seem to tell me that the Onkyo receiver will be sending 75 Watts per channel at 8 ohms. If so then this would seem to be 35 Watts per channel less than the Pioneer. But maybe I am trying to compare apples to aardvarks here. And maybe I am not interpreting the data correctly. If the Onkyo is capable of sending different amounts of power depending on the ohm rating, does this happen automatically, or would I have to manually adjust this? It os a little troubling if I have to do it manually and then know that if i do it wrong I could hose my brand new speakers.

If anyone can explain the difference in the above power ratings between these two brands, or any other notable differences to where I might be able to understand (like I am a 5th grader maybe), that would be very helpful. I realize it must be very frustrating to try to give guidance to someone with so little knowledge, so I do appreciate your patience and willingness to help. It feels like I need an electrical engineering degree to be able to intelligently shop for a AVR.

Thanks!

Acutally the Pioneer only puts out 80 watts per channel at 20hz to 20khz. Which is full bandwidth and what you want to look at. The other spec you saw was the single frequency 1khz rating which is easy to produce and shows an artificially inflated power output. Many manufactures do this to make their products look more powerful. When in fact they are not. What I copied and pasted below is from the 819's manual off the Pioneer website. So what you now see is only a 5 watt difference. Which is negligible. The Onkyo also produces less distortion at .08% compared to .2% of the Pioneer.

Continuous average power output of 80
watts* per channel, min., at 8 ohms, from
20 Hz to 20 000 Hz with no more than
0.2 %** total harmonic distortion.
Front (stereo) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80 W + 80 W
Power output (1 kHz, 8 Ω, 0.05 %)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .110 W per channel Miscellaneous

In a nutshell the Pioneer receivers are really not that great until you get to the Elite line. Which starts at 699. Stick with the Onkyo or better yet the Denon due to its more advanced room correction system.

Now about your speakers. With speakers you should mainly look at impedance and sensitivity. Your Atoms which are an outstanding speaker have a sensitivity of roughly 92db 1w/1m. What this basically states is that with one watt of power applied at 1 meter distance your speaker will produce 90db of sound pressure. Which is pretty efficient. Anything above 89db is pretty darn efficient.

The other number is the impedance and anything 6 ohms and above and your in good shape as pretty much all mass market receivers can handle this. It's when the speaker has an impedance of 4 ohms is where need to be careful.

Also keep in mind while the Atoms are real efficient and great speakers they are geared to smaller rooms and may not work all that great in larger rooms. This is when you might want to look at the Mini Monitor.

 

[jostenmeat]

Plus the Denon offers the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ system which also corrects the subwoofer frequencies. This is major plus in my book especially at the 299.00 asking price.

Wow, and with Dynamic EQ and Volume as well. Impressive. If it could only handle audio via hdmi, these would sell like hot cakes.

 

[rnatalli]

Wow, and with Dynamic EQ and Volume as well. Impressive. If it could only handle audio via hdmi, these would sell like hot cakes.

The 1610/590 does handle HDMI audio and has HD decoders as well.

DJ in TX, ignore power ratings as they pretty much mean nothing. How receivers test on the bench is what truly matters.

 

[anamorphic96]

Most players decode the new formats. So he can certainly avoid that part cost wise.

I've used AS and it's not any better than any other system I've used for calibration. Except it's a bigger PITA to run correctly. No system sets crossovers correctly either.

If you want to correct your sub you should get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer.

As far as a bench test goes. 28 watts for all channels is actually pretty good for a low end receiver. Reference level volume is considered 75 db which requires less than a watt to produce. The biggest issue in amps comes with to low of an impedance load.

You make some valid points. But the Behringer for a new guy would be very complicated not practical. Plus it adds another 100 dollars.

At this point with receivers there is no reason not to get the new formats as the cost difference is negligible.

While its is true none of the auto set up systems get the crossovers correct all the time. This is due to the reciever manufactures choice with Audyssey and not Audysseys choice. There FAQ section on their website explains this.

Plus when you offer more mic measurements you get a more even tonal balance. The THX standard is actually 4 positions for cinema use. But more positions do not hurt. The Audyssey sub correction with MultEQ at its price point is not offered by any other manufacture other than Denon and does a pretty respectable job.