Have a system 1/2 built, need ideas on the rest

[guaiac_boy]

Hi. I'm a forum admin at another unrelated site but a first-time newbie to this forum. Nice site! I'm looking for some speaker advice. I've been putting together a system for a rather large room in my basement which measures 33' front to back, 22' wide, 8' foot ceiling. The TV is an LG 50" Plasma 1080i/720p. The "sweet-spot" is about 15' back from the TV sort of in the front-middle third of the room.

When we bought the house the guy was in the middle of setting up a 7.1 system. There are 2 in-wall surrounds and 2 in-wall rear speakers which seem to be reasonably situated with regards to the the prime viewing area. They're rbh brand (I know nothing about them) speakers with a 1.5" tweeter and 6" woofer. I've run them a little bit and they seem like they'll do fine for their intended purpose.

I recently picked up a Yamaha RX-V765 receiver. Inputs are a Dish Satellite box, Sony Blu-ray player, and cheap DVD/VHS player for the kiddos, and eventually an i-Pod dock.

I recently picked up a Klipsch RC-52 center for a price I couldn't pass up. That leaves me needing two mains, and subwoofer. I know there is some argument to be made for timbre matching, so I'm wondering if I should stick with Klipsch reference-series speakers for the front. I assume this is less critical with regards to the sub. (?)

Would RF-52's be "enough" to fill a room that size? Would I be better off going larger? Would the added expense of RF-62's or 82s likely justify the jump in price? I'm trying to keep the speaker boxes small enough looking that my wife won't be expecting a new car at the end of the day. At the same time, it's important that it ends up sounding reasonable. Duty will likely be 90% movies/TV and maybe 10% music. I'm not an audiophile by any means, but I do appreciate a nice CD once in a while.

I don't mind spending a few bucks on something that will last for a couple of decades but I'm not looking to spend more than my car is worth either.....

Any ideas on subs? I'd like to keep that particular beast around $300 if possible.

 

[guaiac_boy]

No takers huh?

Bump......

 

[chris357]

Hi, I'm nowhere near a pro here but my 2 cents are :

stick with the surrounds you have for now.. I have never heard of them but they are surrounds so not super critical at least at first, and you never know maybe they are placed really well and end up working great and you never have to replace them.

the next is you mentioned an ipod dock at some point so it sounds like you will play music through this.. are you the type of listener who runs around the house and needs back ground or do you sit in the sweet spot drooling over the awesome sound stage and etc.... if you are teh second then speakers are a big deal.. and I wouldnt let teh deal on the klipsch center hold you back from getting really great towers and then replaceing the center with a matching for the towers you end up with.. I dont think this is super critical for the short term though but the great thing about this hobby is that you can upgrade at your own pace as you, your wife, and your budget see fit.

I'm personally not a fan of Klipsch but that doesnt mean anything.. I really have never heard their current speakers so I have no real basis for my bias probably I am against any brand sold in best buy or the late circuit city)

at least I admist it right ?

i woudl sugest a used pair of B&W's they are amazing speakers and the 600 series (check out for exact model numbers) are pretty good value.


next rather than getting a dock for an ipod I woudl get an apple TV it will blow away an ipod connected to your stereo since it has digital optical outs. which means it will use the DAC in your yamaha which is probably better than the DAC in the ipod. which means the sound quality is way better.. plus you dont have to hassle with your ipod .. if you get the huge 160 gb apple tv you will have enough storage to actually hold a decent sized music library and even have some shows saved on it..

I only use my apple TV for music but there is a ton of stuff you can do with it that is pretty amazing.

also as for buying used stuff there is a website called audiogon that is great you can find alot of really high end stuff used at pretty affordable prices..

the bad part is most people who know about audiogon no the value of their stuff so no screaming deals.. but since most are audiophile types they take good care of their stuff.

I've had great luck with the site.

hope this helps..

again I'm not a pro hear or anywhere.. I'm just an enthusiast who buys what sounds good and looks cool

 

[lsiberian]

RBH's are very good speakers.

As are Klipsch Reference series.

A pair of Klipsch Reference speakers can easily fill your room. You do want to match your front speakers for sure.

Don't short change the sub though.

SVS makes great theater subs. You can also orchestrate a DIY project that would be amazing too. If interested in the DIY orchestration ping me or Wmax. We'd be happy to recommend a sub. I could also recommend a builder too. If your good with wood building a sub is a lot of fun.

 

[m_vanmeter]

+1 on previous comment, since Klipsch speakers use a loaded horn design for upper mid and higher frequencies, they offer a somewhat unique timbre to match and very few conventional dome tweeters will do it. Get matching Klipsch horn L and R speakers. The sub does NOT need to match anything except the recommended low frequency cross over point for your front 3 speakers. Just about any 10" or 12" powered subwoofer (or two for your large room One now and another when the budget recovers) will work. SVS, Hsu Research, Elemental Designs all make super nice subwoofers. Your current surrounds will work nicely with a powerful front 3 from Klipsch. As to which Klipsch RF towers to get.....only your budget knows I am a strong believer in the maxim that a large room needs large speaker cone area to move alot of air and fill the room with sound (that is also why to consider two subwoofers). Get the largest towers that you budget can handle and fit the room esthetics.

 

[lbolts20]

my basement is 22x26 and the back wall bumps out 1/2 way to be about 28' deep and yours is still quite a bit larger.

I agree the front 3 should match and I don't think that center channel will be enough for your size room. What is the size of your viewing area besides 15' back? Do you want to fill the entire room with sound or mainly just your viewing area? My viewing area is about 12-14' back and I currently have a phase tech pc center with dual 5.25" woofers and it's not enough for me.

For $300 you aren't going to get anything you will be happy with for a sub. To at least enjoy the home theater experience you might want to just pick up a cheap used front speaker set and save up to get a really good sub or 2. I personally think the sub is the most important speaker to have. I went to the local stores and brought back several subs to test out under $800 and they all sucked for my size room and it would be even worse in yours. I had annunaki build me a custom sub that I'm very happy with. If you are on a budget and are handy with woodworking building a sub yourself with save you quite a bit of cash and will outperform almost anything you are going to find at your local big box stores. There's lots of great advice in the subs forum for doing it yourself and recommendations on subs to buy.

I also started a thread about new speakers I'm looking to buy for almost 100% home theater. Once I decide what I'm getting I can let you know what I think as with your size room your going to need at least if not more than what I am getting. I am mainly concerned with filling the viewing area with sound other than a good roar from the sub. If your looking to fill the entire room then you'll definately need quite a bit more than what I'm looking to purchase.

 

[sawzalot]

I really cant offer any comments on your front setup as the choices are just too exuburent However the surrounds are indeed very good as I have heard these in other setups, as for the sub woofer I would seriously consider a diy build, there are a few right here in the diy section, for less money than the cost of one commercial sub with enough a$$ to fill that room you can have two with an amp and digital crossover.

 

[guaiac_boy]

Thanks everyone. Wow. Good information. I'm glad to hear about the RBH's. I've hooked them up long enough to run them a little. They seem to have good clean sound - certainly undersized to be mains but for their purpose they should be fine.

I'm personally a little surprised at the emphasis everyone places on the sub(s). I've always considered it to be less critical than the mains, but that doesn't seem to be the prevailing opinion at all. Again, I'm no expert - just a guy looking to put something together that doesn't suck. I also have the wife factor. Knocking plaster off the walls isn't something that I'll be able to do realistically.

I'll probably end up with something from the Klipsch reference series for the L & R main. Which ones exactly will probably come down to budget. I've listened to several Klipsch lines at the local audio shop and I like they way they sound.

As for the sub, sure I'm willing to build one, especially if it ends up nicer and cheaper. I've got a friend with access to a very well-equiped cabinet shop. I'm 100% clueless about where to start though. I assume spending some time in the "sub" forum would help. Any other places to start? It's probably no harder to build two than one..... Is it better to build one nice, large one with quality components or split up the same money for two smaller, perhaps lower quality units?

As for filling up the listening area - the actual zone that I care about is only the front 1/2 of the room behind the TV. It's probably 16' front to back and 22' wide. The back 1/2 of the room is for the fishtank, computer desk, and bookshelves. The rear surrounds are on the far back wall, fairly high up - probably that's fine. The surrounds are slightly behind the prime viewing area and are mounted in-ceiling.

Thanks for the help. Maybe I need to increase my sub budget a little.

 

[Davemcc]

When buying (or building) a sub, you have to consider the entire volume of the room, not just the portion that is the "theater area". The output of a wimpy box store sub will just get swallowed up in that massive room. Since you suggest 90% of this system will be theater use, the sub becomes especially important. The .1 in 5.1 or 7.1 is the dedicated LFE track intended for subwoofers to produce specific effects. If you cheap out on the sub, you cheat yourself out of this dedicated LFE track and your movie viewing experience will be underwhelming, especially in that gigantic room of yours.

The suggestions here to get two subs instead of one are no joke. My own rule of thumb is to find the sub you think is adequate for your space, then double it. This will give you half as much bass as you really want. I don't think it's unusual among movie lovers to have subs worth as much as all other speakers combined.

 

[lsiberian]

Thanks everyone. Wow. Good information. I'm glad to hear about the RBH's. I've hooked them up long enough to run them a little. They seem to have good clean sound - certainly undersized to be mains but for their purpose they should be fine.

I'm personally a little surprised at the emphasis everyone places on the sub(s). I've always considered it to be less critical than the mains, but that doesn't seem to be the prevailing opinion at all. Again, I'm no expert - just a guy looking to put something together that doesn't suck. I also have the wife factor. Knocking plaster off the walls isn't something that I'll be able to do realistically.

I'll probably end up with something from the Klipsch reference series for the L & R main. Which ones exactly will probably come down to budget. I've listened to several Klipsch lines at the local audio shop and I like they way they sound.

As for the sub, sure I'm willing to build one, especially if it ends up nicer and cheaper. I've got a friend with access to a very well-equiped cabinet shop. I'm 100% clueless about where to start though. I assume spending some time in the "sub" forum would help. Any other places to start? It's probably no harder to build two than one..... Is it better to build one nice, large one with quality components or split up the same money for two smaller, perhaps lower quality units?

As for filling up the listening area - the actual zone that I care about is only the front 1/2 of the room behind the TV. It's probably 16' front to back and 22' wide. The back 1/2 of the room is for the fishtank, computer desk, and bookshelves. The rear surrounds are on the far back wall, fairly high up - probably that's fine. The surrounds are slightly behind the prime viewing area and are mounted in-ceiling.

Thanks for the help. Maybe I need to increase my sub budget a little.

Far and away the best design for DIY sub on a tight budget is the Infinity Kappa Perfect thread in the DIY section of this forum. It has every tidbit of info you need to complete a monster sub.

while multiple subs is preferred a single kappa will outperform any sub I've seen below 1000 dollars and is comparable to the top SVS subs. The only concern on this type of build is size. If size is a concern I suggest a JL Audio 8w7 build. The work is a bit more to get the most out of the JL Audio sub. The retail sub using this driver is over 1000 dollars so again your talking about 1000s of dollars you get for 100s of dollars.

I do suggest you go ahead and match your center with a nice pair of bookshelves from the reference series.

There are other options, but for a first timer I suggest either a JL Audio build or a Kappa build.

Of course if you have more cash to spare there are Audiopulse subs that will compete with anything on the planet for home theater. The LMS is widely considered the best sub ever made for home theater applications.

But a Kappa is as loud as a jackhammer(110db) and you can hear those through walls down the street.

 

[chris357]

I know I'm a minority here but at the moment I'm pretty happy with just my towers. I have NHT 2.5i's and they produce an amazing amount of bass on their own. The Sub is there for the explosions and other room rumbling effects.. and at the moment for me my mains handle that stuff ok. Yes i will get probably 2 subs eventually but I think in a good home theater the center is one of the most important since all of the dialogue comes from there. I'm guessing there is more dialoge in even a serious action flick than big booms.

I'm not saying it isnt important especially if you dont have pretty decent mains.

If you are on a serious budget I woudl also recomend Epik subwoofers. they have a great selection at very budget prices with exceptional reviews. I also know the owners brother but seriously check them out you might find the cost to be just a little more than a diy and you save a ton of time.

 

[ozmedia]

WHy not RBH? They are probably still under warranty too

RBH = Roger B. Hassing, founder and CEO of RBH Sound, Layton Utah. One of the few remaining designers and builders of their own product, though SOME assembly for entry level models is done in China, components are made in Layton, they are not 'parts-bin' speakers as so many others seem to be these days.

RBH was famed for their designing and crafting as an OEM for some of the most renowned speakers offered by JBL, Fosgate and MacIntosh.

One benefit for first of all KEEPING your existing speakers, all RBH architectural products, in-wall in ceiling speakers, volume controls etc. are backed with a full 25 YEAR warranty, yes I said TWENTY FIVE YEARS. Meaning that your esiting speakers are most likely still covered as RBH has only offered their own brand for a little over 30 years now.

They are not sold in big box outlets and Internet sales are forbidden, so they are harder to source but well worth it, compared to run of the mill, retail outlet products with high margins to cover expenses.
Best places to look are custom home theatre designers and installers, low voltage electrical installers, as that is RBH's key client base. They are very well known as being one of the best values for money in loudspeakers today.
Audioholics has reviewed and been pleasantly surprised many times by RBH products, a few searches here will find the reviews for you.

So to timbre match your fronts to your existing side and rears (they do make a proper bi/dipole speaker as a surround but you've most likely just got a pair of two way speakers being used as surrounds).

Remove the grills, use a paper clip on the EDGE of the metal grill so as not to damage it, they offer three cone styles.
>Entry level is the common polypro cone you see everyone offering. This is the A series or builder series.
>Mid level is the TK series fibreglass cone, yellow like the B&W cones.
>The aluminum proprietary cone is RBH's MC series, their high end, outrageous output abilities and practically unlimited input power. (reviews everywhere comment about how the aluminum cones don't bottom out no matter how hard you push them.)

There is a Signature Series in-wall, but it is a pretty darn high end and costly product, and has fabric grills. If you have metal grills, they are one of the models above.

Visit the RBH website to find the nearest dealer and get them matched up. You will find that they do offer the best value for money as they are building their own product, not relying on others and then recovering R&D, electrical engineering and multiple shipping costs.

As for a sub, RBH also makes beautiful aluminum sub drivers too, again renowned many times on this website. The MCS-88 is a dual 8" aluminum sub that will pump out more than enough bass for your room size. Being an in-wall, you have no need to pay for an expensive cabinet, and yes they do sound very tight and clean without a backbox. Though only 8 inches, the added rigidity, reduced weight, higher power handling and excursion of their aluminum drivers, equates to that of a much bigger sub.

So there you have it, inexpensive, very high performance home audio that you can't find at your local retailer. I've matched up RBH against some of the most famed names in the industry, Salk, Mordaunt Short, Axiom, KEF, Klipsch, Boston Acoustics and countless other top , they prove to be the better value for money almost every time . I think all the Audioholics reviews support my comments also, as Roger Hassing says, "they are the best speakers you've never heard of".

Hope this helps at least understand who RBH is and how they offer a superior value for money.

If you need more info: http://www.rbhsound.com

If music be the food of love...play on - W. Shakespeare



EDIT NOTE: In addition to once designing and building JBL, Fosgate and MacIntosh, RBH currently builds the more entry level EMP brand (found for sale online here at incredible pricing), the Destination Audio brand as well as the more elite Status Accoustics brand, (like the Status Decimo !!).

 

[ozmedia]

I'm personally a little surprised at the emphasis everyone places on the sub(s). I've always considered it to be less critical than the mains, but that doesn't seem to be the prevailing opinion at all.

Yes subs are very trendy in the HT world today where people want seat shakers. However with decent front mains, you shouldnt have the need to add multiple subs to compensate for lack of bottom end.

If you like RBH, the detail and clarity of aluminum cap tweeters, the MC series has added two nice models recently.

The new MC-553 http://rbhsound.com/mc553.shtml and the classic MC-884 http://rbhsound.com/mc884.shtml (phenomenal 3-way in wall that has a heap O bass response with an accurate 40Hz low end from an 8inch driver) You probably will not need tower mains as the 884 will outperform most towers anyway.

 

[lsiberian]

I know I'm a minority here but at the moment I'm pretty happy with just my towers. I have NHT 2.5i's and they produce an amazing amount of bass on their own. The Sub is there for the explosions and other room rumbling effects.. and at the moment for me my mains handle that stuff ok. Yes i will get probably 2 subs eventually but I think in a good home theater the center is one of the most important since all of the dialogue comes from there. I'm guessing there is more dialoge in even a serious action flick than big booms.

I'm not saying it isnt important especially if you dont have pretty decent mains.

If you are on a serious budget I woudl also recomend Epik subwoofers. they have a great selection at very budget prices with exceptional reviews. I also know the owners brother but seriously check them out you might find the cost to be just a little more than a diy and you save a ton of time.

While towers are great for music they quite frankly rarely cutt the snuff for home theater especially action movies without a sub.

Commerical subs will be nowhere near the performance of a similarly priced DIY sub. This is because they have to pay for Shipping, marketing, and lots of other costs. DIY is the way to get the best for less. They are nice commercial subs of course. You can even get a premade box and have a car audio shop mount the driver and amp for you if necessary.

 

[lsiberian]

Yes subs are very trendy in the HT world today where people want seat shakers. However with decent front mains, you shouldnt have the need to add multiple subs to compensate for lack of bottom end.

I must disagree with youon this. I've not run into any even decent mains that don't benefit strongly from the support of multiple subs in home theater. Not to mention the stress you put on your drivers by pushing them to lfe at high volumes. In a ported design this can easily lead to problems

Also the definition of a decent main could be challenged as well. There are certainly many decent mains that require a sub in home theater. If sonic quality is the goal extension in the mains isn't always your best friend.

It's not a trend to me when I feel the bass in an action movie. It's awesome, but to each his own I suppose.

 

[m_vanmeter]

as mentioned, on the typical Dolby 5.1 soundtrack, the .1 is the LFE or "low frequency effects" channel. It's there for a reason, to give the audio playback some of the "kick" you get at a movie theater. You don't have to drive a powered subwoofer hard to get the benefit, but you will certainly notice the difference when it is "not there".

 

[guaiac_boy]

OK, maybe I'll get better help if I clarify my goals a little bit. I'm trying to figure out just how big (and how nice) of a sub to get. The goal really isn't to be able to wake up the neighbors. One episode of the dishes rattling in the cupboard and the whole system might end up out on the curb while I'm at work .

I'm currently looking at some Klipsch RF-62's or RF-52's for the L & R. As for the sub, I'm not unable or unwilling to pay for something nice. I just don't need to wake the dead. What I really want is nice clarity, minimal distortion, and faithful sound reproduction at reasonable household volumes. I'm not trying to replicate a rock concert and I don't necessarily need to feel the bass. I would like it to sound "right" though and I'd like a full spectrum of sound.

I've looked at the SVS PB10-NSD and the PB12-NSD. The HSU VTF-2 MK 3 would also be an option. They're priced within my (recently expanded) budget. Together with the rest of the system, would there be enough bass to acheive what I've described above?

 

[ozmedia]

EMP/Destination Audio

OK, maybe I'll get better help if I clarify my goals a little bit. I'm trying to figure out just how big (and how nice) of a sub to get. The goal really isn't to be able to wake up the neighbors. One episode of the dishes rattling in the cupboard and the whole system might end up out on the curb while I'm at work .

I'm currently looking at some Klipsch RF-62's or RF-52's for the L & R. As for the sub, I'm not unable or unwilling to pay for something nice. I just don't need to wake the dead. What I really want is nice clarity, minimal distortion, and faithful sound reproduction at reasonable household volumes. I'm not trying to replicate a rock concert and I don't necessarily need to feel the bass. I would like it to sound "right" though and I'd like a full spectrum of sound.

I've looked at the SVS PB10-NSD and the PB12-NSD. The HSU VTF-2 MK 3 would also be an option. They're priced within my (recently expanded) budget. Together with the rest of the system, would there be enough bass to acheive what I've described above?

Pick up one of the EMP's up, they don't sell the separates here, which is odd, but they can be found online at good prices, also Destination Audio, pretty much the same thing as EMP (made by RBH also and just rebranded) .
This will get you a very high quality and reasonably proced product. Accurate and detailed without sounding boomy, as I find Klipsch and KEF sound. In fact, as per my previous comments, I'd just put in the dual 8" inwall from RBH, paint the grill to match the wall and you're good to go. MORE than enough for your needs.

If you want to drop a few bucks, the RBH MS10.1 offers a single 10" aluminum driver (accurate and detailed low end) or the MS 8.1 has dual 8's one front and one down firing. You'd be very hard pessed to find a better value for money and, if you don't want that muddy and rather senseless boombox bass found in a tricked out Honda, you will at least get accuracy and detail this way.

 

[ozmedia]

Read more carefully

I must disagree with youon this. I've not run into any even decent mains that don't benefit strongly from the support of multiple subs in home theater. Not to mention the stress you put on your drivers by pushing them to lfe at high volumes. In a ported design this can easily lead to problems

Also the definition of a decent main could be challenged as well. There are certainly many decent mains that require a sub in home theater. If sonic quality is the goal extension in the mains isn't always your best friend.

It's not a trend to me when I feel the bass in an action movie. It's awesome, but to each his own I suppose.

RBH 1266-SE, 12" side firing sub reaching down to 25Hz, two of these and "you shouldnt have the need to add multiple subs to compensate for lack of bottom end".


Then there is the 1010SE, which is the lower half of a T-2 system, which reaches down to 18Hz (though they are also $8K). You could add 2 other powered subs from Dayton to your system and the T-2's will still be lower, richer and tighter. We are talking Cineplex bass now. In fact even the 1266 (12 " sub, 2X6.5" woofers and a Scan Speaktweeter) offers tighter, richer bass than any Dayton I've heard, though much more expensive. Dayton is okay for an inexpensive sub, but personally I don't like build quality and find they lack detail and speed.

Note that the poster is not seeking earth shattering base either, I have a friend with 61-SE bookshelves that drop to 45Hz and that's enough for an apartment for sure, he didn't even go for the sub. The 1044 drops to 30Hz and even their tiny 641 hits 45Hz. No it is not subsonic but for accurate and detailed bass with a THUMP that you can feel, they all hit the mark very well. I find in most cases a person hearing anything under 45Hz would see it as deep bass, when properly on plain and not dipping 3dB to get there.

Until you've heard RBH's bottom end in an aluminum driver, bass is hard to judge, ever the reviewers here have been bowled over by their output and bass extension that seems to come from the deepest depths to punch you in the chest. I've sold just about every high end speaker you can imagine, over nearly 30 years (I actually worked for Paradigm's FIRST retail outlet, when they were still exclusive and not mass marketed to big box retailers ) and RBH blows my mind everytime I fire up an audition.

I understand you want thunderous bass, but that was not my comment.

I merely said "you shouldnt have the need to add multiple subs to compensate for lack of bottom end."
I've also sold speakers that need a sub just to get ANY bottom end or even low midrange frequencies from them, in which case a sub is imperative. I see your point but it hardly detracts from my own.

 

[chris357]

to clairfy I never said you didnt need a sub.. just that if you are trying to go into HT on a budget and not crush the bank account, you can go without one for a while and since most people dont watch 100% action movies. you may not notice much of a loss without it especially if you have decent towers for mains.

also i know some of you on these forums are all about DIY for value and I'm not disputing that.. some people like the fit and finish of a professionally made product so it has a more furnature look to it. I know I'm handy and could do ok on the wood working and finishing but it woudl not come close to what the finish and quality would be on a nice sub/speaker made by a good manufacture.

as in everything if you do it yourself you get value because you put the time and energy into it some people woudl rather pay more and go golfing or better yet watch a movie on that cool new Home Theater.

i think and this is coming from a person who likes to watch movies and loves his home theater and also I'm willing to spend a little more for good stuff but because I place a high value on it I'd rather buy a premade speaker or sub from a good company that I new was going to be really good.

you can argue the benefit of value and performance on the DIY and I'm never going to make one myself (we can get along cant we?)

I think if you (the original poster) 2k on a sub and look at velodyne, rel, JL audio(used, on audiogon), Epic, SVS I'm sure there are more but thats all I can think of at the moment.. there are some nice subs and they will fill your room well. as you get more involved you can spend more.. infact the mid range Epik subs woudl probably do really nice for about 8-900 bucks.. again you feel you need more low end.. sell the old on Audiogon

I have my bias's that I hold strong and others have there bias's they hold onto.. the best part about this hobby is there really isnt a 100% right and wrong.

i know I'm right for me because I have more than 250 watts from a bad *** amp powering my mains they crush the bass i have bass for days .. I know everyone does not have what I have or will spend what I have spent on some of my stuff.. and my system is still a work in progress. its never ending

i'm rambling but the gist is some people push their opions on people when there are many right ways to do something.. and one particular way may not be the only way to be happy.