Harmon Kardon 630 vs denon 2805

[dralign2]

I am going to purchase the axiom speaker setup (v60's, 150,8's &500) and I was going to get the denon 2805 but was recently referred to the HK 630 for a better choice. ANy input would be appreciated.

 

[sjdgpt]

I own the 2805, so I a bit biased.

The 2805's big sister 3805 has tested better... a bit more power, better S/N ratio versus the HK 630.

I would rate them as a near toss up, with a slight edge to the 2805.

That said, the HK is cooool looking.

 

[marky]

get the HK 635. The 7300 is the best one, its about 1400 dollars though.

 

[shokhead]

I have the 2805 and am happy but i took a hard look at the 630,it got great reviews. I found a refurb one by HK for 650 bucks but got the Denon instead.

 

[WooHoo]

I would think that the newer HK 635 is a better comparison to the Denon 2805 but the 630's can be found at pretty good clearance pricing. I think the newer HK has video upconversion and better EQ functions that closer match the Denon features.

 

[shokhead]

I could live without either easy and if i found the 630 under 600,i'd go for it. I belive it has a better bass management.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

What price are you getting on the 2805 and 630? The Denon's are a tad brighter. The HK's are softer. HK's are known for their hi-current amps, so wattage means nothing with HK (it's a lot better than listed). I bought the 3805 over the HK 7300 because of pricing issues. $840 versus $1400. Check these sites out...

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail.asp?dpno=470069

www.jr.com/OMBasketDetail.process?RestartFlow=t&OMProductId=4020307&PEEK=BOO&AddToBasket.x=15&AddToBasket.y=6

http://www.dakmart.com/website/items.asp?cID=111&p=3

Dakmart has an excellent deal on the Denon 3805.

 

[shokhead]

I paid $670 for my 2805,BStock from dakmart.com. Full factory warr from Denon.

 

[PENG]

The HK's are softer. HK's are known for their hi-current amps, so wattage means nothing with HK (it's a lot better than listed)

This so called high current thing does not mean too much neither. It is an instantaneous rating, and HK honestly states that it is instantaneous. Most receivers at the $1K price point, e.g., the Denon 3805, has big enough power supply (tranformer/capacitors/rectifiers) that can deliver high instantaneous currents as well. They just don't emphasize it as HK does.

As many had posted here before,
P(watts)=V(volts) X I(amps) X power factor, or
P(watts)=I(amps) square X R(the resistive component of Z, the impedance)
So watts always mean something if you want hight current as these numbers are all inter-related, you cannot have one without the others.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

High current means everything. The lowest end HK receivers perform flawlessly. Put the AVR135 at 40 watts per channel up against Sony's STR-DE 597 at a claimed 100 watts with an inneficient speaker, and your jaw would drop. I should have said HK's wattage is closer to spec than others. For instance, Denon's 3805 power isn't really 120x7, but in fact much less. Taken from the Audioholics' reveiw: "Based on the fuse rating of 7.1 amps, we can deduce that the power transformer is around 850VA (7.1A x 120V). Taking into account amplifier and power supply efficiency and processor overhead, true output power in 7-channels all-channels-driven would be about 850 x 0.7 – 50 = 545 Watts / 7 = 77 watts per channel." I don't know where I saw the complete table, but there were a few receivers that had more watts per channel than others per their respective specs, HK and Pioneer Elite being two that come to mind.

 

[e30cabrio]

I have an H/K AVR 310 (55wpc X 5 @ 35amps) I run 4 Infinity RS10's & an RS 5 non floor as a center and in a mid sized room it gets too loud. I got a deal on an AVR 7000 (100 wpc X 5 @ 70 amps) and really heard no differance for the day it worked. I am waiting for an AVR 430 and really think it is the perfect solution as it has all of the features of the 7300/630 for a hell of alot less. I can't wait to get it!

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

This so called high current thing does not mean too much neither. It is an instantaneous rating, and HK honestly states that it is instantaneous. Most receivers at the $1K price point, e.g., the Denon 3805, has big enough power supply (tranformer/capacitors/rectifiers) that can deliver high instantaneous currents as well. They just don't emphasize it as HK does.

As many had posted here before,
P(watts)=V(volts) X I(amps) X power factor, or
P(watts)=I(amps) square X R(the resistive component of Z, the impedance)
So watts always mean something if you want hight current as these numbers are all inter-related, you cannot have one without the others.

Good article if you haven't read it. Especially page two. www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/receiverpower.php

 

[PENG]

Buckeyefan1, sorry I didn't express myself correctly in my previous post. I agree with you that high current does mean a lot. I was trying to point out the fact the HK's claim of high current, i.e., 35, 50, 70A, are all instantaneous values. Most receivers cannot handle that kind of current on continuous basis. Also, Denon, NAD, Yamaha, and others, do claim high current capability as well, but they don't seem to emphasize it as much as HK does.

Regarding Audioholics estimation of the 3805's 7 channel output, I thought they made the assumption that the specified 7.1A is maximum consumption. I am not sure if this is necessarily the case. If you visit S&V magazine's site, http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/DenonAVR-3805lab.pdf, you will see that the 3805 did 7X93W. True, it is not even closed to 7X120W but it is still higher than many receivers at its price point, including HK's AVR630/635. Also, H.T. magazine tested both the AVR630 and the AVR3805 in the same issue by the same reviewer/tester. The 3805 measured significantly higher outputs than the HKAVR630 in 1,2,&5 channel, especially into a 4 ohms load.

I would also like to make the point one more time, that there is a definite relationshp between power, voltage, and current. If you hold voltage constant, higher current will get you higher watt, and higher watt (yes I mean those "honest" watts) will get you higher currents, as long as the amplifier can handle the impedance (e.g. 4 ohms).

If you claim that Sony DE receivers don't put out their advertised watts, that may be fair. To say "wattage means nothing", and imply that only current matter (which it does), is misleading. The fact is, at a given voltage and power factor, higher currents will always mean higher watts, conversely, higher watts into a load of say 8 ohms or 4 ohms will mean delivering higher currents into that load. I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to highlight some basic engineering principles that I feel are relevant.

 

[PENG]

Good article if you haven't read it. Especially page two. www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/receiverpower.php

I did read it, more than once, thanks. Did you read the "The All Channels Driven Amplifier Test Controversy"? I thought it was an excellent article too.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Buckeyefan1, sorry I didn't express myself correctly in my previous post. I agree with you that high current does mean a lot. I was trying to point out the fact the HK's claim of high current, i.e., 35, 50, 70A, are all instantaneous values. Most receivers cannot handle that kind of current on continuous basis. Also, Denon, NAD, Yamaha, and others, do claim high current capability as well, but they don't seem to emphasize it as much as HK does.

Regarding Audioholics estimation of the 3805's 7 channel output, I thought they made the assumption that the specified 7.1A is maximum consumption. I am not sure if this is necessarily the case. If you visit S&V magazine's site, http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/DenonAVR-3805lab.pdf, you will see that the 3805 did 7X93W. True, it is not even closed to 7X120W but it is still higher than many receivers at its price point, including HK's AVR630/635. Also, H.T. magazine tested both the AVR630 and the AVR3805 in the same issue by the same reviewer/tester. The 3805 measured significantly higher outputs than the HKAVR630 in 1,2,&5 channel, especially into a 4 ohms load.

I would also like to make the point one more time, that there is a definite relationshp between power, voltage, and current. If you hold voltage constant, higher current will get you higher watt, and higher watt (yes I mean those "honest" watts) will get you higher currents, as long as the amplifier can handle the impedance (e.g. 4 ohms).

If you claim that Sony DE receivers don't put out their advertised watts, that may be fair. To say "wattage means nothing", and imply that only current matter (which it does), is misleading. The fact is, at a given voltage and power factor, higher currents will always mean higher watts, conversely, higher watts into a load of say 8 ohms or 4 ohms will mean delivering higher currents into that load. I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to highlight some basic engineering principles that I feel are relevant.

Peng,

I agree with you. I think we both know whats at issue, but sometimes there's not enough space to say it. I get into these debates all the time with a friend of mine who designs lasers for the military. Is a whiz in physics and EE. We both agree (and that's very seldom) that any receiver can output a ton of watts. What the better ones do is manage it. The best units are extremely heavy, due to massive heat sinks. The more heat you can dispurse the less likely the unit will break down, overheat, or quit. Distortion has a lot to do with power. I had a Sony STRDE 925 rated at 110 watts x 5, but at .1 distortion. It was only 21 lbs compared to my Denon 3805, which is almost double that. Sound and Vision Mag is the site I read up on the specs. Thanks. Another friend and myself are into car audio as well. We understand the need for voltage to drive these hungry class D car amps, along with expensive caps. Another big issue is speaker sensitivity. Having a true 100 watt amp is fine but using 89db Polks as opposed to 97db rated Klipsch speakers will have a big impact on how efficient that amp has to work. Larger magnets (like in JL Audio car subs) need more power to move the cone, and are less efficient because of the size of the parts-especially dual voice coil. Efficient speakers don't mean they'll sound better than inefficient ones. So a lot has to do with brand name. You "usually" get what you pay for in home audio, but finding the best "match" for your money is sometimes the hardest part. Wattage does mean a lot if, like you said above, everything else measures out. I can't stress enough to read up on the Sound and Vision Mag review and the lab tests, as well as Audioholics reviews. PS, did you compare the lab spec of the Denon 3805 to the HK 7300? Huge difference!

 

[PENG]

did you compare the lab spec of the Denon 3805 to the HK 7300? Huge difference!

Thank you for taking the time to write in more detail this time. I read their exclusive 7300 review and yes it is way more powerful than the 3805. H.K probably has the most powerful 7 channel receiver in the 2 to 4K price range. This thing weighs 55 lb, that is 17 lbs heavier than my current 3805 and 10 lbs heavier than my Ex-Sony DA-4ES. By the way, while the Sony DE models are light, their ES counterparts(not the digital ones) are heavy.

I would have bought the 7200 instead of the Denon, but they were going for C$2,400 even in their final days. I like the sound and features of the 630 but I don't like that cooling fan. Besides, its Canadian price at the time was at least C$250 more than the 3805.

I think I have read enough reviews to suspect that H.K. receivers (except for the flag ship 7X00 series) tend to have a huge power supply to get you the "high instantaneous currents" and impressive all channel driven power, but their amplifier section may not be able to deliver equally impressive 1 & 2 channel continuous r.m.s. power. I know I am saying something contrary to the popular belief that they have strong amp sections; but, look at those reviews by H.T. mag, S&V mag, What hi-fi mag.etc., they can't be all bias against HK. All those lab measurements showed lower (but higher than their specified numbers) 1,2 channel power into 8 and 4 ohms than others within the same price range. Sure the numbers are true as advertised, but that doesn't make them higher!

There are people who argued that those test results should not be taken seriously for various reasons, e.g. S&V measures output at clipping, 1 Khz, and H.T. mag measures output at 0.1 and 1% distortion etc. To me, as long as they apply the same methodology/standard to everything they test, the results should still allow us to compare the tested products in relative sense.

Now that I know you also have the popular 3805, I am happy to report that after experimenting with hooking up the front L&R pre-outs to my separates, first an old Adcom 555, then my new Bryston 4B SST for a couple of months, I have finally disconnected the 4B permanently after convincing myself that the improvement was not that noticeable except at ridiculously loud level. The amp section of the 3805 is just "that" good. It does not have the power(not even close) of the 7X00 HK receivers, but its SQ may be just as good.

Back to the original poster's question, I would recommend the 2805 over the 630. The 2805 offers roughly the same power, at a much lighter weight, has PLIIx, auto EQ, and does not have a fan. No matter how quiet, a fan is an extra source of noise. I would assume the 630 has a much larger power supply to get you the superior all channel driven power, if that's important to you.

 

[Dave@audio]

I have the 2805 and am happy but i took a hard look at the 630,it got great reviews. I found a refurb one by HK for 650 bucks but got the Denon instead.

Could You Be So Kind As to Point Me to Those Reviews
I'm Looking Into the 635 and so far haven't found any.

Thanks

 

[Ryonius]

Asking for Advice

I am relatively new to the world of home theatre systems and would like the help from anyone willing to provide me with some information.

I am debating on using the H/K 7300 or the Denon 3805. Does anyone have any thoughts on which receiver is better if one is looking for the best quality system with multi-room capabilities?

A friend recommended the H/K 7300, but the price point on the Denon seems to be a little better.

Any thoughts on the Denon DVD 2910 vs. the H/K 31? Both seem to perform progressive scan, but the price difference is pretty noticeable.

Canton Speakers/sub vs. Definitive?


Thank you.

................................................................................................

Thank you for taking the time to write in more detail this time. I read their exclusive 7300 review and yes it is way more powerful than the 3805. H.K probably has the most powerful 7 channel receiver in the 2 to 4K price range. This thing weighs 55 lb, that is 17 lbs heavier than my current 3805 and 10 lbs heavier than my Ex-Sony DA-4ES. By the way, while the Sony DE models are light, their ES counterparts(not the digital ones) are heavy.

I would have bought the 7200 instead of the Denon, but they were going for C$2,400 even in their final days. I like the sound and features of the 630 but I don't like that cooling fan. Besides, its Canadian price at the time was at least C$250 more than the 3805.

I think I have read enough reviews to suspect that H.K. receivers (except for the flag ship 7X00 series) tend to have a huge power supply to get you the "high instantaneous currents" and impressive all channel driven power, but their amplifier section may not be able to deliver equally impressive 1 & 2 channel continuous r.m.s. power. I know I am saying something contrary to the popular belief that they have strong amp sections; but, look at those reviews by H.T. mag, S&V mag, What hi-fi mag.etc., they can't be all bias against HK. All those lab measurements showed lower (but higher than their specified numbers) 1,2 channel power into 8 and 4 ohms than others within the same price range. Sure the numbers are true as advertised, but that doesn't make them higher!

There are people who argued that those test results should not be taken seriously for various reasons, e.g. S&V measures output at clipping, 1 Khz, and H.T. mag measures output at 0.1 and 1% distortion etc. To me, as long as they apply the same methodology/standard to everything they test, the results should still allow us to compare the tested products in relative sense.

Now that I know you also have the popular 3805, I am happy to report that after experimenting with hooking up the front L&R pre-outs to my separates, first an old Adcom 555, then my new Bryston 4B SST for a couple of months, I have finally disconnected the 4B permanently after convincing myself that the improvement was not that noticeable except at ridiculously loud level. The amp section of the 3805 is just "that" good. It does not have the power(not even close) of the 7X00 HK receivers, but its SQ may be just as good.

Back to the original poster's question, I would recommend the 2805 over the 630. The 2805 offers roughly the same power, at a much lighter weight, has PLIIx, auto EQ, and does not have a fan. No matter how quiet, a fan is an extra source of noise. I would assume the 630 has a much larger power supply to get you the superior all channel driven power, if that's important to you.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

A friend recommended the H/K 7300, but the price point on the Denon seems to be a little better.

It's in no way better if you are able to purchase the AVR7300 from the Harman store on ebay for around $900. That's only $200 better than you can buy a 3805 "B" unit for right now. No comparison. I'd even jump on a AVR7200 for $700 if you can still find one.

 

[korgoth]

HK 630's are selling for $500 flat (465-535)
HK 7300's are going around 1000.. maybe a little less.

i was looking at marantz 8400, but they seemed to jump back up in price so i found the harman audio store and steered my cousin towards the 630. if i upgrade in the next year or 2 i think ill go to the 7300, unless somethin even better comes out for that price.