Harmon Karden 3480 impressions

L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
My first post and would like to start by thanking all the members for so much insight and information and to Clint for working around my stubborn ISP to get me logged on. I am no audiophile but I so appreciate all the information I've received from this forum I wanted to share my experiences.

My recent listening experiences have revolved around an inexpensive Onkyo HTIB Onkyo HT-S767c Home Theater in a Box which has served its purpose pretty well up to now. Then began the upgrade train of which I find myself firmly on board.

Our room is about 15 x 20 and the first stop was an upgrade to Axiom M22's, based solely upon reviews, great service and good price.

We also noticed we don't watch movies much, so we jetisoned the surround speakers. The Axioms were a major improvement over the Onkyo speakers which weren't exactly horrible but no where near the axioms and as mentioned we listen to stereo music about 80% of the time.

Next stop was a new sub. We don't like big bass either but wanted to fill in the bottom end a bit so we chose a Mirage Omni S8 to replace the blubbering mess that was the original Onkyo subby. This added a lot of musicality to the Axioms and was plenty of bass for our rather quiet listening habits.

Next stop was on to find a nice 2 channel receiver or integrated amp (since we don't use the tuner either) that had plenty of power, bass management for the sub, and a great list of features.

The ONLY 2 channel receiver I could find that even came close was the Oulaw RR2150 but as you all know you can't have one. You can only go to the web site and read the review and specs - and drool.

But I wanted to begin learning about different receivers, their power ratings and general character and through a lot of research and this forum discovered the HK3480

Also learned they were available refurbished on e-bay for about $150.00. So with little to lose I purchased one (I overpayed at $165.00) and set it up yesterday. Took 2 days from Arizona to San Diego and set up was really easy, even though the manual pretty much sucked. No pictures to show set-up options, just text to guide your adventure and if I didn't have the Onkyo to disect and duplicate the hook-ups, it would not have been that easy for the rank beginner.

Got everything working and noticed what I knew was going to be the biggest limitation of the 3480 - features. No digital or coax input so I assume I'm using the DAC from the Onkyo cd player and routing that analog signal into the 3480 and no way around it I also assume. I knew going in that for $150.00 I wasn't buying features, but instead 120 watts of power into 2 channels.

The rest of the set-up was pretty undramatic and straight forward. Then we threw in a cd and both my wife and I noticed a dramatic difference. Much better clarity and a smooth dynamic but a strange reverb kind of thing that caught my ear. Was wondering what was up then discovered the dreaded VMax. Turned VMax off and it came alive.

Clear and rich and way easier to listen to than the Onkyo. The Onkyo was just loud when turned up and the HK seems to be much clearer at the same SPL which of course should come as no surprise. So even though it was no surprise it was a pleasnt upgrade to say the least.

Another feature lacking is bass management. It does have a sub pre-out but no crossover management (I have read it is set at 100Hz) which doesn't seem to be such a big deal. I'll miss it one day though I am sure.

So overall much better sound, seriously lacking features, but for $165.00, well worth the effort.

The remote is also pretty weak and I SO miss the ability to adjust each channel's volume, especially the subby from the remote but will learn to adjust.

STILL want the Outlaw 2150 and really hope the features are up to an AVR's though that may be indeed too much to ask.

I imagine I'll keep it for a while and learn about Harmon Kardon's sound and character then upgrade again - perhaps to the RR2150 or to another feature rich 2 channel receiver/amp if there were to be anything of the sort appear in the near future.

Again thanks to everyone and I hope my experience will help someone else with their decisions.

Larry
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
.....great first post, LHawes, and welcome to AH....you use your head and make a buck count....bravo.....
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Welcome to the forum LHawes. I suspect you can do bass management through the sub. At least you can on all the subs I have seen. Main speaker cables from the receiver to the sub and from the sub to the speakers and dial in the crossover point you wish on the back of the sub.

Nick
 
L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
Nick250 said:
Welcome to the forum LHawes. I suspect you can do bass management through the sub. At least you can on all the subs I have seen. Main speaker cables from the receiver to the sub and from the sub to the speakers and dial in the crossover point you wish on the back of the sub.

Nick
Yeah Nick, May end up with that set up some day but still a very low tech guy and would rather not route two sets of wires to and from the subby. Am also VERY pleased with the 100 hz crossover. Seems to blend very well with the M22's.
have played a couple more cd's and am really liking the receiver.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
don't be dismayed by the Harman Kardon 3480's lack of digital coaxial or optical inputs ... I have yet to see a 2 channel setup with digital ins.

to get bass mngt in a 2 channel unit, you'd need at least 600 bucks for the pre amp and more for the amp to get something with bass mngt. (anthem TLP1 + amp) so, in terms of price nothing comes close the 3480 for bang for the buck.

aesthetics ... honestly, I'd pay 150USD just for the case and blue light with nothing inside. :)

use RCA analog cables left and right output of the player to the inputs of the 3480

if you intend to add an external amp, this unit also has pre-outs :) (voila, a good pre-amp)

btw, I have a 3480 myself ... if you have other questions, don't hesitate to ask. welcome to AH
 
L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
mike c said:
don't be dismayed by the Harman Kardon 3480's lack of digital coaxial or optical inputs ... I have yet to see a 2 channel setup with digital ins.
I just checked the Outlaw RR2150 and it has analog inputs as well. Mike do I understand correctly that if one uses the analog inputs then the digital to analog/DAC conversion is taking place in the CD player? And if it is digital coax/optical that the DA/AD conversion takes place in the receiver/processor? And does that make the choice of a CD player that much more important?

to get bass mngt in a 2 channel unit, you'd need at least 600 bucks for the pre amp and more for the amp to get something with bass mngt. (anthem TLP1 + amp) so, in terms of price nothing comes close the 3480 for bang for the buck.
Still makes the RR2150 look pretty good for bass management but I'll tell ya the more I listen the more I like the 3480.

aesthetics ... honestly, I'd pay 150USD just for the case and blue light with nothing inside. :)
Agreed, a very nice looking unit.

use RCA analog cables left and right output of the player to the inputs of the 3480

if you intend to add an external amp, this unit also has pre-outs :) (voila, a good pre-amp)
Yeah the pre outs are a pretty cool feature.

btw, I have a 3480 myself ... if you have other questions, don't hesitate to ask. welcome to AH
Thank you very much

Larry

EDIT

Mike, what speakers do you use with the 3480? The M22's seem like a great match.
 
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N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
LHawes said:
Yeah Nick, May end up with that set up some day but still a very low tech guy and would rather not route two sets of wires to and from the subby. Am also VERY pleased with the 100 hz crossover. Seems to blend very well with the M22's.
have played a couple more cd's and am really liking the receiver.
Keep it in mind, because in most cases this will yield a noticeably improvement in sound quality.

Nick
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
LHawes said:
I just checked the Outlaw RR2150 and it has analog inputs as well. Mike do I understand correctly that if one uses the analog inputs then the digital to analog/DAC conversion is taking place in the CD player? And if it is digital coax/optical that the DA/AD conversion takes place in the receiver/processor?
yes

LHawes said:
And does that make the choice of a CD player that much more important?
I wouldn't know ... but since you are listening to 2.0/2.1, digital/analog connection shouldn't matter much.

LHawes said:
Mike, what speakers do you use with the 3480? The M22's seem like a great match.
I tested them with the Infinity BETA 50 ... but am now gonna use it as a pre-amp for pipe-in music (JBL Soundpoint SP6C)
I needed something cheap but with a radio tuner. (it has RDS too!)
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
mike c said:
to get bass mngt in a 2 channel unit, you'd need at least 600 bucks for the pre amp and more for the amp to get something with bass mngt. (anthem TLP1 + amp)
WTF? This is so totally and completely incorrect and off the wall it boggles my mind. Doing bass management via the sub is a solid, well established method which yields excellent results and buying expensive pre pros amps would not benefit the OP one whit.

Nick
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Nick250 said:
WTF? This is so totally and completely incorrect and off the wall it boggles my mind. Doing bass management via the sub is a solid, well established method which yields excellent results and buying expensive pre pros amps would not benefit the OP one whit.

Nick
LHawes said:
Another feature lacking is bass management. It does have a sub pre-out but no crossover management (I have read it is set at 100Hz) which doesn't seem to be such a big deal. I'll miss it one day though I am sure.

the OP was looking for a unit (int.amp, receiver, pre-amp) with built in bass management.

I was trying to tell him that buying an expensive unit was unnecessary.
 
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L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
Nick250 said:
WTF? This is so totally and completely incorrect and off the wall it boggles my mind. Doing bass management via the sub is a solid, well established method which yields excellent results and buying expensive pre pros amps would not benefit the OP one whit.

Nick
Yeah Nick, Am looking for built in bass managament and appreciate the advice about using the sub, but I am such a newby and so busy with my business I'm not motivated right now to try the subby, bass management routine what with running new wiring and all. May try it some day but weird thing about my baby Mirage Omni S8 is that has only one set of high level speaker inputs which seems difficult or impossible with that single set. See page 3 on the manual.

Mirage S8 Manual

Anyway I'll keep the sub bass management idea in mind for a not so busy weekend and see what I come up with.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
LHawes said:
Yeah Nick, Am looking for built in bass managament and appreciate the advice about using the sub, but I am such a newby and so busy with my business I'm not motivated right now to try the subby, bass management routine what with running new wiring and all. May try it some day but weird thing about my baby Mirage Omni S8 is that has only one set of high level speaker inputs which seems difficult or impossible with that single set. See page 3 on the manual.

Mirage S8 Manual

Anyway I'll keep the sub bass management idea in mind for a not so busy weekend and see what I come up with.
This what you need to know when/if you decide to manage the bass. Pretty straigt forward stuff IMO.

Method 2 – Speaker Level – For Music Applications
1. The other way to connect your subwoofer to your receiver is using
a High-Level (#8) (speaker wire) connection. First remove the highlevel
vibration dampeners that are installed between the terminals
and then simply connect the speaker wires from the Front Left and
Right Speaker Outputs on your receiver to the Left and Right Inputs
on the rear of the subwoofer (#8). It is imperative that speaker
polarities be maintained, one must connect the positive and
negative wires to the appropriate positive and negative terminals.
Failure to do so will result in an out of phase connection, severely
limiting the amount of bass in your system.
2. After connecting the High-Level (#8) (speaker wire) between your
receiver and subwoofer, ensure no fray wires are touching, as this
could cause a short circuit and damage your electronics. Plug your
MIRAGE® subwoofer into an AC outlet. Do not use the AC outlet
on the rear of your receiver.
3. See Final System Adjustments, below.
Do NOT connect both RCA (#7) and High-Level (#8) connections
simultaneously, as this will damage your MIRAGE subwoofer.
FINAL SYSTEM ADJUSTMENTS
1. The Subwoofer is equipped with a master power switch which must
be engaged prior to use. After having completed the break-in
process, select the correct position for the Power Mode switch (#6),
either On or Auto depending on your system. The Auto selection
will leave the unit in a self-sensing mode, such that should the unit
sense an audio signal it will turn itself on and then shut down after
several minutes without signal, while in the On position the
subwoofer always remains on. Should the system not be used for
an extensive period of time, it is recommended that the subwoofer
be unplugged from the AC outlet.
2. Adjust the Level Control (#1) on the front panel of your MIRAGE®
subwoofer so that the volume of your subwoofer matches the
overall system volume. This ensures a smooth transition between
the low and high frequencies of your system.
3. Adjust the Frequency Setting (#3) on your MIRAGE® Speakers
subwoofer so that the frequency range of the subwoofer blends
well with that of the front speakers (For use with all settings, except
when in Filter Mode Off). Setting the crossover too low will create
a gap between the frequency response of the front speakers and
that of the subwoofer, while setting the crossover frequency too
high will create a doubling of certain frequencies, making the music
sound boomy. When using small satellite speakers, the appropriate
crossover frequency should be from 95Hz to 120Hz, for the
bookshelf speakers 65Hz to 95Hz and for the large crossover
floorstanding speakers 40Hz to 65Hz.
4 Adjust the Phase control (#4) so that the subwoofer integrates fully
with the rest of your audio system. This control is adjustable to
either 0 degrees or 180 degrees, and ensuring that the subwoofer
operates in phase with the rest of the system is critical, as an out of
phase subwoofer will either sound like it is lacking in bass
performance or that its timing is off. This setting will be
determined by your listening position, the characteristics of your
listening room and its interaction with your MIRAGE® subwoofer.
An out of phase speaker means that the speaker cone is moving
inwards when it should be moving outwards, like the other
speakers in your system, causing cancellations of certain
frequencies. By adjusting the phase control, one can ensure that all
speakers move in the proper direction, at the same time.
5. Steps 2, 3 and 4 might require repeating in order to fine tune your
system. Ensuring the proper blending between the speakers and
the subwoofer is critical to the performance of your system, as a
whole.
 
L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
Thanks Nick,

I've read that part about 50 times and am missing smething.

....and then simply connect the speaker wires from the front Left and Right Speaker Outputs on your receiver to the Left and Right Inputs on the rear of the subwoofer....
I am no audiophile but did I miss the part where the main speakers are hooked up, either from the receiver - or the sub?

How do the mains get any signal following those instructions? If I 'simply' connect the speaker wires from the front Left and Right Speaker Outputs on the receiver, what happens next?

I have another subwoofer with 4 high level ins, which I assume come from the receiver, and 4 high level outs, which I assume go to the mains speakers.

This has only 4 high level terminals with no way back out to the speakers?

I feel a bit lame. What am I missing?

Larry
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Ok, I have done some research and here's the deal. The sub does not have the type of pass through that I thought it would. The Mirage contradicts it's self on how to connect from the receiver to the sub. But I have outlined what is the best way IMO.


*TURN OFF THE SUB AND RECEIVER BEFORE STARTING THE SETUP*

1. Use the RCA sub out from the back of the receiver to connect to the sub.

2. It looks like it has two sub RCA outs on the back of the receiver, but I can't tell for sure using the pdf below.

http://manuals.harman.com/hk/QuickStart Guide/HK3480-RearPanel.pdf

If it has two outs, I would get a two into one RCA adapter and connect the two RCA outs of the receiver to the one RCA in on the back of the sub. If the receiver has only one RCA sub out then you don't need the adapter. You may well not need the adapter in either case, but I would be happier with the two in one adapter if there are two RCA outs just in case.

3. Put "filter mode" switch to "on" or "yes". This will allow you to use the sub for bass management as you receiver does not have that capability on its own.

4. "Adjust the Level Control (#1) on the front panel of your MIRAGE®
subwoofer so that the volume of your subwoofer matches the
overall system volume. This ensures a smooth transition between
the low and high frequencies of your system."

You will need to experiment a bit with the above to have the level that sounds best to you. For music you should not really "hear" a sub so much as it filling in the lower frequencies subtlety. A properly adjusted sub for music should be noticed more by it's absence than by "thumping".

5. Read the quoted text below, but I would set the crossover to 80Hz.

"Adjust the Frequency Setting (#3) on your MIRAGE® Speakers
subwoofer so that the frequency range of the subwoofer blends
well with that of the front speakers (For use with all settings, except
when in Filter Mode Off). Setting the crossover too low will create
a gap between the frequency response of the front speakers and
that of the subwoofer, while setting the crossover frequency too
high will create a doubling of certain frequencies, making the music
sound boomy. When using small satellite speakers, the appropriate
crossover frequency should be from 95Hz to 120Hz, for the
bookshelf speakers 65Hz to 95Hz and for the large crossover
floorstanding speakers 40Hz to 65Hz."

5. Be mindful of the phase as described in the manual:

"Adjust the Phase control (#4) so that the subwoofer integrates fully
with the rest of your audio system. This control is adjustable to
either 0 degrees or 180 degrees, and ensuring that the subwoofer
operates in phase with the rest of the system is critical, as an out of
phase subwoofer will either sound like it is lacking in bass
performance or that its timing is off. This setting will be
determined by your listening position, the characteristics of your
listening room and its interaction with your MIRAGE® subwoofer.
An out of phase speaker means that the speaker cone is moving
inwards when it should be moving outwards, like the other
speakers in your system, causing cancellations of certain
frequencies. By adjusting the phase control, one can ensure that all
speakers move in the proper direction, at the same time."

I probably missed something or was unclear, but it's been a long day. Good luck and keep us advised on how it's going.

Regards, Nick
 
L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
Thanks so much for the effort Nick. I have e-mailed Mirage just to see WTF they had in mind with the back panel. Still have no idea how to hook up line levels from the receiver to the sub then to the mains with only one set of connections but the sub is working great with the factory settings and the bypass on. I'll try turning off the bypass a
and adjust at the sub and see what I come up with.

Thank again for the effort and great advice.

larry
 
S

simpleHT

Audioholic Intern
I do own the HK 3480 myself. I use it to drive my Phase Tech PC3.1II for bedroon music listening. It sounds pretty good for the money (as well got it refurbished from Ebay). I A/B the receiver with my BA AVR7120 with stereo input, the sound is below the BA, but very close and respectible.
 
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N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
LHawes said:
Still have no idea how to hook up line levels from the receiver to the sub then to the mains with only one set of connections
Based on the info I could glean from the sub manual it does not have this capability. The only connection you should make from the receiver to the sub is the RCA connections I refered to in my previous post. You speaker outs from your receiver should only go directly to your main speakers.

LHawes said:
but the sub is working great with the factory settings and the bypass on. I'll try turning off the bypass a and adjust at the sub and see what I come up with.
Bypass?
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Nick250 said:
WTF? This is so totally and completely incorrect and off the wall it boggles my mind. Doing bass management via the sub is a solid, well established method which yields excellent results and buying expensive pre pros amps would not benefit the OP one whit.
Mike C. I was looking at this thread and while I was in disagreement with what you had to say, I in no way should have responded in such a crass and attacking way. I was out of line. My apologies.

Regards, Nick
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Nick250 said:
Mike C. I was looking at this thread and while I was in disagreement with what you had to say, I in no way should have responded in such a crass and attacking way. I was out of line. My apologies.

Regards, Nick
apology accepted. no problem. ;)
 
B

bandit

Audioholic
I think it is pretty tough to beat the H/K at the price. I bought one of these for my son the same way you did. It is connected to a pair of JBL L3's and the sound is amazing in my opinion. HK was also great during the process as our first one arrived damaged.. they sent me a printable return UPS slip and sent us another when they recieved the damaged unit. No questions asked.

It would hard to beat at that price anytime. I like the little blue lights too : )

Bandit.
 

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