Harman Kardon AVR-354 vs. Onkyo TX-SR805. Harman Kardon wins!

[wire]

Where else would all these misfits go then if not here

This is true .

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is true .

You see, we are after truths, after all.

 

[wire]

You see, we are after truths, after all.

Not always , almost never 4 me . The truth does take alot of work to find and sometimes find things you really don't want to find .

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Alright guys, I didn't realize how my reply's I would get.

Anyways, I didn't have any SPL meter or anything so I did the best I could make the volumes exactly the same (again, I did this by ear).

I set both receivers to stereo mode, cross over was both at 80hz, everything was EXACTLY the same. I made sure bass treble and everything was at 0db. Don't think that I am bias'ed toward Harman Kardon because before this test I thought Onkyo receivers were a lot better than harman kardon.

I don't know what to tell you guys but from what I heard, the harman kardon receiver had a lot more power than the 805. Some of you say that if i dont have any measurements it is not credible but based on what I heard, the harman kardon really out did the onkyo.

 

[wire]

Alright guys, I didn't realize how my reply's I would get.

Anyways, I didn't have any SPL meter or anything so I did the best I could make the volumes exactly the same (again, I did this by ear).

I set both receivers to stereo mode, cross over was both at 80hz, everything was EXACTLY the same. I made sure bass treble and everything was at 0db. Don't think that I am bias'ed toward Harman Kardon because before this test I thought Onkyo receivers were a lot better than harman kardon.

I don't know what to tell you guys but from what I heard, the harman kardon receiver had a lot more power than the 805. Some of you say that if i dont have any measurements it is not credible but based on what I heard, the harman kardon really out did the onkyo.

Yeh
years ago
A freind of mine worked @ a Midrange hi fi shop . We took the time and did a set up to compare 2 different amps .
We used the source , same speaks , same wires .
We decided to use some JBL ( 8 ohm and 91 db ) .
We compared a Denon intergated ( i think around 40 x 2 rms ) costless than the yammy by alot .
Yammy 70 x 2 rms
The little Denon Owned the Yammy , it was quite a eye opener . We did hook up a Carver Amp / pre , to join the fold , but the little Denon couldnt compete .

 

[mtrycrafts]

Anyways, I didn't have any SPL meter or anything so I did the best I could make the volumes exactly the same (again, I did this by ear).
...Don't think that I am bias'ed toward Harman Kardon because before this test I thought Onkyo receivers were a lot better than harman kardon.
.

Well, your setup was not properly matched and bias controlled, regardless you thought the Onkyo better in the start. You do have a subconscious bias, we all have one, and cannot be switched on or off at will.
That is why bias control is imperative, along with proper level matching.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Well, your setup was not properly matched and bias controlled, regardless you thought the Onkyo better in the start. You do have a subconscious bias, we all have one, and cannot be switched on or off at will.
That is why bias control is imperative, along with proper level matching.

I used to think Onkyo receivers was the best brand my job carried. I thought this way for atleast 13 months until that day i compared the two. I'm telling you guys, I was completely shocked at how much fuller and warmer the Harman Kardon sounded. I'm not trying to convince any of you that Harman Kardon is great or anything like that, I am just confused why it sounded a lot better to me. Again, I spent a while trying to match the levels. I had my friend controlling the volume on both receivers while I stood right in the middle with the two speakers facing me and told him to raise each according to what I thought was EXACTY equal. Both recievers had the same exact source (Ray Charles and I started each test at the beginning of the same song) had the EQ at 0db. Also they both had the same speakers, and I also made sure there was no positve and negative mix ups.

Again, I am not trying to convince anything to any of you. All I am asking is why it sounded a lot better to me. Why did it sound so much more full and warm sounding than the Onkyo? Why did the avr 354 at 75 watts outperform (in my opinion) the sr805 at 130 watts?

Also, what does the whole high current thing mean with harman kardon?

ALSO! If i accidentally say 347, I mean 354

 

[wire]

I used to think Onkyo receivers was the best brand my job carried. I thought this way for atleast 13 months until that day i compared the two. I'm telling you guys, I was completely shocked at how much fuller and warmer the Harman Kardon sounded. I'm not trying to convince any of you that Harman Kardon is great or anything like that, I am just confused why it sounded a lot better to me. Again, I spent a while trying to match the levels. I had my friend controlling the volume on both receivers while I stood right in the middle with the two speakers facing me and told him to raise each according to what I thought was EXACTY equal. Both recievers had the same exact source (Ray Charles and I started each test at the beginning of the same song) had the EQ at 0db. Also they both had the same speakers, and I also made sure there was no positve and negative mix ups.

Again, I am not trying to convince anything to any of you. All I am asking is why it sounded a lot better to me. Why did it sound so much more full and warm sounding than the Onkyo? Why did the avr 354 at 75 watts outperform (in my opinion) the sr805 at 130 watts?

Also, what does the whole high current thing mean with harman kardon?

ALSO! If i accidentally say 347, I mean 354

This is the confusing thing about the way the industry rates there amps , its been like this probably before most of us where born .
H/K has always had a warmer sound to it , even when i was i a teenager and for High Current , they always been that also . Alot like the midfi stuff you can buy and buy 20 years ago , nothing has really changed in Amps over those years .
High Current or Headroom , will give your speaks the ability to dig abit deeper in 2 channel and give you what your speaks demand . It reminds of the 1st NAD amp i had .
If you look @ older Amps , they will begin to leek and you willbe left with what most of the reciever give you and of course the Older amps will have tobe serviced .
Oh yeh
With amps , it all starts @ the power supply .

 

[PENG]

Alright guys, I didn't realize how my reply's I would get.

Anyways, I didn't have any SPL meter or anything so I did the best I could make the volumes exactly the same (again, I did this by ear).

I set both receivers to stereo mode, cross over was both at 80hz, everything was EXACTLY the same. I made sure bass treble and everything was at 0db. Don't think that I am bias'ed toward Harman Kardon because before this test I thought Onkyo receivers were a lot better than harman kardon.

I don't know what to tell you guys but from what I heard, the harman kardon receiver had a lot more power than the 805. Some of you say that if i dont have any measurements it is not credible but based on what I heard, the harman kardon really out did the onkyo.

The following are the problems I perceived from your findings:

1. The 354 weighs almost 30 lbs lighter (31.5 vs 50.9).
2. If you look through the top of the casing, the 354 has a fair size transformer but not any bigger than a similarly priced Yamaha and I don't know where they hide those big caps that you could clearly see inside other receivers by Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon.
If size/weight doesn’t count, fair enough, but look at one lab measurements:

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/pdfs/HCC/152/HCC_152_054.pdf

Onkyo 805

175W (2 channels driven, 8Ω,
0.5% THD)
281W (2 channels driven, 4Ω,
0.5% THD)
146W (5 channels driven, 8Ω,
0.5% THD)
207W (5 channels driven, 4Ω,
0.5% THD,)
Fidelity firewall: 162W
(0.05% THD, 8Ω, 1kHz)
THD @ 50W: 0.0018% THD
(1kHz, 8Ω)
Frequency response: 20Hz-
20kHz +/- 0.06dB

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/pdfs/HCC/124/076_HCC_124.pdf

HK 635 (almost 10 lbs heavier than the 354, 41 vs 31.5)
Measured power @ 1kHz
2ch driven: 110W into 8Ω
5ch driven: 90W into 8Ω
2ch driven: 160W into 4Ω
5ch driven: 125W into 4Ω
Fidelity firewall @ 1kHz/2ch
100W: into 8Ω (0.05%THD)
Distortion @ 1kHz
0.02%THD @ 50W (8Ω)
Frequency response
20Hz-20kHz +/-0.2dB

So not only by specs., even by lab measured data, the Onkyo beat the 354's older but bigger brother by a significant margin in terms of real power output.

So your findings, if true, it defies science/engineering. I for one do not believe too much in published specs and that's why I always try searching out those lab measurements in order to add credibility to manufacturer's published specs. I have no problem believing a 20WX2 Luxman amp can out perform a 90WX7 Yamaha but that 20W amp weighs almost 50 lbs and listed for $5K whereas the HK AVR-354 does not seem to have caps big enough to be visible from the outside.

One other thing, if your main objective is to compare the power outputs of the two receivers, it is futile to certain extent to test in Stereo mode and crossover at 80 Hz. I am sure you know the reason. Try doing another level match test in pure direct to make the speakers are getting full range linearly amplified signal and you may get different results.

I am sorry for not taking your initial post too seriously. I blame Seth, laugh can be contagious.

 

[wire]

So your findings, if true, it defies science/engineering. I for one do not believe too much in published specs and that's why I always try searching out those lab measurements in order to add credibility to manufacturer's published specs. I have no problem believing a 20WX2 Luxman amp can out perform a 90WX7 Yamaha but that 20W amp weighs almost 50 lbs and listed for $5K whereas the HK AVR-354 does not seem to have caps big enough to be visible from the outside.

.

Yeh
But you r confusing the fella comparing a Class A Lux VS a crapped out SS .
Compare this Tube amp to your SS .
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Stereo-Tube-Amp-Amplifier-Pair-Telefunken-KT88_W0QQitemZ180275596145
There is no comparison , you can throw any speaker @ that Carver/Paravinci amp and the Watts per channel do not add up until you make the Tube amp work , then its pure magic .
It is really unfair to compare the superiour Luxman to a Average SS reciever .
Guitar
Those class A are step above in warm in sound than with the H/K and will deliver in clipping ( or even close to ) where a SS reciever will crapp out . Because of there headroom and particular the Bob / Tim amp will out perform almost any amp out there , especially with electrostatics .

 

[PENG]

Yeh
But you r confusing the fella comparing a Class A Lux VS a crapped out SS .
Compare this Tube amp to your SS .
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Stereo-Tube-Amp-Amplifier-Pair-Telefunken-KT88_W0QQitemZ180275596145
There is no comparison , you can throw any speaker @ that Carver/Paravinci amp and the Watts per channel do not add up .
It is really unfair to us the superiour Luxman to a Average SS reciever .

I agree with you but I was just trying to make the point that I do not follow published specs blindly either. I should have picked a more appropriate example.

 

[wire]

I agree with you but I was just trying to make the point that I do not follow published specs blindly either. I should have picked a more appropriate example.

Thats what i explained in a earlier post . Specs in any amp , its all different and most of it is a outright lie .
I believe in the posted specs on my Bryston , because i got it serviced just before the warrenty expired ( it was tested much over its advertised 250x2 rms ) .

 

[DD66000]

HK receivers and amps have always been conservatively rated, as for as watts. Many other brands are stretching their supposed watts into never, never land.
And as far as Onkyo/HK comparision, I'll take a HK over the Onkyo any day, just for its superior SQ. Just mho.

Of the receivers I've ever had, in the order I'd pick them
HK
Marantz
Sansui
Denon
Yamaha
Sony

 

[wire]

HK receivers and amps have always been conservatively rated, as for as watts. Many other brands are stretching their supposed watts into never, never land.
And as far as Onkyo/HK comparision, I'll take a HK over the Onkyo any day, just for its superior SQ. Just mho.

Of the receivers I've ever had, in the order I'd pick them
HK
Marantz
Sansui
Denon
Yamaha
Sony

DD
You list a old Sansui , never owned one , but i see ppl. in demand for those old recievers .

Off topic . Anyone know where i can get off board DAC @ a good price for my puter ?

 

[DD66000]

DD
You list a old Sansui , never owned one , but i see ppl. in demand for those old recievers .

Off topic . Anyone know where i can get off board DAC @ a good price for my puter ?

In '79 I replaced the '69 Sansui receiver with a Yamaha interated amp and tuner. I'm not sure that was an upgrade.
But the HK Citation pre-amp and power amp, I bought 1 1/2 years ago, late '70's vintage, beats them all.

 

[no. 5]

Again, I am not trying to convince anything to any of you. All I am asking is why it sounded a lot better to me. Why did it sound so much more full and warm sounding than the Onkyo? Why did the avr 354 at 75 watts outperform (in my opinion) the sr805 at 130 watts?

I realize you aren't trying to convince any of us of anything, you did the comparison for your own benefit and you wanted to shair the results. You did the best comparison you could in the circumstances, but as Mtrycrafts pointed out, biases can not be switched off at will. And biases are more than a favored brand, it could be loudness, it could be appearance, it could be an ad copy in your memory, it could be any number of things. If you have access to an SPL meter it would make things much easer; to remove loudness as a bias, levels must be within 0.2dB to 0.1dB of each other, but I doubt that anyone could level match by ear much better than 1dB.

For fun, try the test again, but with one difference; after you have matched the levels, have your friend pick one of the two receivers at random (maybe flip a coin) and turn its volume up a small amount (perhaps 0.5dB to 1.5dB). Do not let your friend tell you which one has a higher volume, close your eyes as he's doing it if need be.
Then do the comparison a few times, doing the things outlined above each time. Have your friend keep a log of which receiver ends up with a higher volume, and you keep a log of which receiver sounded better, after you're all done, compare notes to see if there was a correlation between loudness and preference.

By the way, are you using the same speakers, and swapping which receiver was doing the amplification, or are you using two pairs of the same make/model of speaker?

Also, what does the whole high current thing mean with harman kardon?

Absolutely nothing, it's marketing.

 

[Ron Temple]

guitarplayer, you heard what you heard and had a preference. That's all that matters and that's totally fine. I tend to agree with you having compared HK to Onk, Pio and Denon in my home in hopes of replacing the HK. Just couldn't do it. Even as a pre/pro it still aced the Denon for music. The 805 is a bit higher up the foodchain than the units I tried and I'm sure many would prefer it... just not you and probably not me . Yes, I'm biased, but with reason.

 

[Seth=L]

I think the point of this thread should be that the HK is not more powerful than the Onkyo, and that can be proven.