Green Mountain Audio revisited

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C

Captain Audio

Audiophyte
I happened upon the now closed Green Mountain Audio speaker discussion and would like to weigh in. .

The EuropaMax's were the first speaker that allowed me to overcome the anxiety of analyzing transducers. You know the feeling, the highs are good but the mids are a little lean. Or maybe, the bass and the mids are nice but the highs are edgy. The list goes on.

With the Europa Max, I had found a clarity of sound that was revelatory. It was the first time that I wasn't concerned with one aspect of the frequency spectrum but now more focused on being amazed at the clarity at which this transducer presented the music. The dynamic ease and driver integration is second to none. The Europa's have the ability to cast a soundstage that is both wide and deep with appropriate hieght. All aspects of the frequency spectrum are balanced and presented with bell lke clarity. At no time are you distracted by harsh highs, sibilant vocals, muddy bass or a midrange suckout.

I am not much of an engineer so I can't say whether it was due to time and phase relationships of the design. Frankly, I dont care. As for the measurements, I don't care about those either. It could be maintained that those with the bigger advertising budgets measure better. I DON'T CARE. MY GOAL IS TO LISTEN TO MUSIC WITHOUT A SACRIFICE IN RESOLUTION AND MUSICALITY. I DO NOT WANT TO THINK ABOUT A DESIGN BEYOND WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE! If your goal is buying based on measurements and great advertisements then you are not a music lover. No, you are not.

If a loudspeaker/audio system stirs your soul and you stay up late to listen to music, you are tired for work the next day from it, you are amazed at the rendition of that piece of music, you are enticed by the clarity of sound, then you are a music lover. The Green Mountain Audio sound lets you get back to the business of loving music. How they do it, who gives a crap. What wire they use, big deal. Can you afford the blood and sweat put into the R&D? If yes, make it your business to give them a trial. If you dont like them then move on to the next pair of whatever it is that you like.

My belief is that without a full understanding of the science behind any design, that you are foolish to state an argument for or against it based on the way it was engineered. As a matter of fact, this foolishness is what drives most consumer markets. The technology for speaker design is not what should matter to the music lover.

Look, I have a lot to say about Green Mountain Audio. Most could care less so I will end it by saying that I have owned speakers from ProAc (D15/D25), B&W (Nautilus 805/803 and have a friend who still owns the better sounding first gen Nautilus 801's), Coincident (Triumph UHS/Partial Eclipse), Alon (Capri/Lotus SE) and Vandersteens (1C/2CE). Of all the speakers that I have owned, the only pair that compels me to LISTEN TO MUSIC is my Europa Max's.

I live next to a former dealer ( friend) for them and was privey to hearing the full line of GMA offerings. I can honestly say that as you go up in price you just get more of everything. He now owns the GMA EOS HD's and all I can say is that they will leave you a few thousand short in the bank account after hearing them!

Anyone in the NY Metro area that would like to get a listen, just send me a PM. For those that are techie and feel the need to talk about why they are what they are and why this and why that, well PM someone else. I don't have time for that. All I can say is that I now own a speaker that is considerably less costly that most everything I have owned in the past and that I am exponentially happier listening to music. Why? Well because everything sounds better to me through my speakers!

Stop sweating why things are what they are and go out and enjoy life. And remember, in the game of life, noone gets out alive! If tech talk is your thing then pontificate such. Just dont cram misinformation and truely uninformed opinions down others throats. The internet is full of those that offer opinions and advice that is either unfounded or untrue.
 
S

Slee_Stack

Junior Audioholic
I'm glad a fellow enthusiast has found speakers that fulfill his needs. I never really heard of Green Mtn Audio before. I checked out their website. They certainly integrate Art into their speaker design!

They are not for me however, being they are a bit beyond my financial means.

Some people appreciate and are willing to pay more for art. Personally, I appreciate nice finishes and cood cabinetry work and will pay a bit more for it. But I don't see myself every purchasing 'sculptured' speakers.

Then there are some who wouldn't pay $1 more for appearance and are 100% function, 0% form.

Regardless, with more options, everybody wins.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
So the contribution of reoppening this topic is exactly what we already heard?

"I have no supporting measurements, I cannot even precisely describe sound, but green mountain speakers are wihout flat and entirely different from anything else in the history of audio. Further: despite the sheer perfection of (insert model) the more expensive meddle are even more perfect.

Really? I look forward to a quick closing of this thread.
 
C

Captain Audio

Audiophyte
Perception is funny. I personally don't see the art aspect of the design. I don't think they are ugly but they arent my first choice in looks either. My decision for buying them was as follows: eyes closed, familiar disc in the spinner with the lights out. What do I hear? When properly set up, what I heard for the first time was an out and out performance. Of course it's not live but holy s*$t there a presence in the room. The clarity and the transparency was amazing. No haze, no brightness, no rolled off highs. Nothing but music that was accurate and liquid.

The clarity and the staging was unlike anything I have ever heard. The only time I have heard something that was close was in the Sonus Faber Amati Homage which I couldn't afford. The bass on the Homage was much deeper also. I have a friend that has a pair of Homages and they are killer. They do sound slightly phasey compared to the Green Mountains though. Not sure why but maybe it was the gear or whatever. Again, I dont care but impressive they are.

The Green Mountains do everything right to my ears. The rest of my system consists of:

CEC belt drive transport
Channel Islands DAC 2
George Wright AU 1500 two chassis pre
Golden Tube SE 40 (Sonic Craft Modified)
Harmonic Tech Pro 11 speaker cables
Audience Au24 interconnects

Again, it's is funny how perception plays a part in life. Before I heard them, I thought they were kinda ugly. When I finally plopped down for a listen, they became beautiful!
 
C

Captain Audio

Audiophyte
Hey Jerry Love. Sorry that you cant hear what I hear. I know that you need an in depth discussion on the physics behind the design but as I have already stated, I don't care.

What I do find concerning though is that if you havent called Roy Johnson and just talked with him. How is it that you could look for such answers on this site when noone here designed them. Also, last time I checked, there is noone here with the physics backround that Roy has. Even more important is that in my belief, since you do not possess the necessary knowledge in physics and mathematics, will you just refute what he has to say anyway. Or, will you be satisfied with Roy's explanation on the matter. Something tells me that you will not be satisfied no matter what. Its seems from your previous posts on the topic of Green Mountain that you would rather just make presumptions without any real investigating. In other words, you JUST LIKE IT WHEN YOU HAVE A CAPTIVE AUDIENCE! Yes, I was yelling :)

GIVE ROY A CALL. I am sure he would be glad to tell you why they sound how they do. He's easy to talk to and fortunately for you, he loves to talk about his designs. I personally dont care. He seems like a nice guy but I dont have much to say to him so please report back to what the actual designer has to say.

Also Jerry, it is up to you to investigate what Roy tells you and scientifically prove that he is telling the truth or not. Who are you to say that because the field of science hasnt proved something that it isn't true! It's not blind faith Jerry, it's just that maybe noone has done the math. It sure seems that you havent either.
 
C

Captain Audio

Audiophyte
And while I'm at it. Why is the science behind the design so important to you? For those that are passionate about Green Mountain designs, that is great. For those that like anything else, that is great also. However, regarless of the design. math, physics or whatever, the true test is how they sound.

I am going to attempt to entertain Jerry now, so here goes.... Before I do that, I was wondering if I have been using too many commas? Whatever!

The description of what I hear from the Green Mountain Audio Europa Max's.

A dynamic that usually comes only from single driver or horn designs. The start and stop of percussion intruments is startling. The full tone burst of notes are readily heard. A light brush stroke on a cymbal followed by a thwack on a snare drum could be cause for the need for Depends big Jerry.

Transparency that lets you hear more deeply into the soundstage. This could be attributed to many factors BUT I can only make comparisons to other designs that I have heard. Since the GMA's allow me to hear more deeply into the recording venue without the sensation that everything is recessed or laid back, I find that it is truely transparent without trying to sound that way.

Bass that is tight and accurate in its tonality in comparison to what I hear live and unamplified. I have had the pleasure to hear many great local acts at a venue that does not use a PA system. Being a drummer, I know what most instruments sound like.

Mid range purity. Vocals have a purity that sounds real. Not hyper fat syrupy real. Just real. As a human (maybe not according to my wife), I know what the human voice sounds like. No other design has gotten this nearly as right as Green Mountain.

Thats it. There is more but I am done trying to explain what you cannot hear. I make no excuses for Green Mountain being as good as they are.

Lastly, if there was something better that I have heard and could afford then I would buy it. I could own more expensive but I now do not find the need. The synergy that my system makes is not hard to hear. That is science. The science of my ears!
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Hey Jerry Love. Sorry that you cant hear what I hear. I know that you need an in depth discussion on the physics behind the design but as I have already stated, I don't care.
We really going to go through this again? *sigh*

What I do find concerning though is that if you havent called Roy Johnson and just talked with him.
I did.

How is it that you could look for such answers on this site when noone here designed them.
Roy Johnson is a registered user who posted in the first Green Mountain thread. He is the designer of these speakers.

Also, last time I checked, there is noone here with the physics backround that Roy has.
Be honest though, fact-checking isn't exactly your best skill is it?

Even more important is that in my belief, since you do not possess the necessary knowledge in physics and mathematics, will you just refute what he has to say anyway. Or, will you be satisfied with Roy's explanation on the matter. Something tells me that you will not be satisfied no matter what. Its seems from your previous posts on the topic of Green Mountain that you would rather just make presumptions without any real investigating. In other words, you JUST LIKE IT WHEN YOU HAVE A CAPTIVE AUDIENCE! Yes, I was yelling
Interestingly: I had agreed to buy a pair of Europa's off of a friend of Shakey's. I was ready to finish the deal last week but he was out traveling. I got an email this morning he's ready to complete but I think you may have just talked me out of the purchase.

I'm not going to do any more point-for-point; there is no (no pun intended) point. You have started with a number of blatantly false presumptions (see my responses above) and attempted to form conclusions from them.

Worse: you don't seem to be discussing the speakers at all, but rather an ad-homonym (discussion about the poster).

I haven't once bashed the sound on GMA speakers. Not once. Why? Because I haven't heard them and so don't know what they sound like.

Roy was nice enough in the last thread to post at some length. Unfortunately, not everything that concerned me was addressed. I do wish there were a local dealer: I would have been there long ago. I do wish someone with GMA speakers wanted to loan them out (to me or to Gene). I do wish that someone whose taste I am more familiar with auditioned GMA speakers and put up their experiences (TLS Guy, Jaimie, WmAx, Alex, etc).

I'm glad your happy with your speakers. I'm not sure what you are thinking in posting: but it seems that your happiness is all that can be gleaned. The rest sounds like one of the "testimonials" on white-van brands like Panamax.
 
C

Captain Audio

Audiophyte
You're right Jerry Love. I'm not very good at fact-checking or fact finding for that matter. Sorry about that.

Your buying GMA's doesn't concern me. Truth be told that's just one more thing I really don't care about.

Oh, and my reason for posting was because I want to get my opinion of Green Mountain designs out there. Isn't that novel. Not that much different than you asking about them.

Oh, and in the future, I guess I will save my "white van" testimonials for the more common folk like myself. Maybe you feel that way but I am sure there are others who dont.

It's shameful that the only feel that I get from you is one of a smug lab nerd! AND PLEASE REMEMBER, you engaged me first. Dont for one second think that this site is about you. If you dont like my post, go elsewhere. If you didnt comment we wouldnt be here right now!

Mind your business if you dont want to hear about Green Mountain again!
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Captain Audio.

Hi. You're free to enjoy your speaker all you want.

However, when driving a car, you can drive it very fast, or slow, or very very very fast.

The only way to know how fast "very very fast" is relative to another car is with quantification. Likewise with a speaker, knowing more about a speaker costing as much as a car is a worthwhile venture. If a car is designed to go 200km/h, and you're happy with just knowing that, good for you. Some of us would like to know whether 200km/h is worthwhile by weighing the consequences, as there's 100s of cars out there that may not do the same thing, but may do other things more effectively.

Regarding phase coherance, Roy argued that it's audible. IN berry berry fast terms, it's like saying there's a perceivable difference between 179.5 km/h and 180km/h. There was a lot of discussion on wether something minute should have an effect.

As someone who clearly knows little on the subject, no one is stopping you from enjoying the speakers. But claims made by the engineer regarding performance are going to be open to criticism if said performance has other drawbacks or otherwise compromises the sound, or if said performance, as with the GMA speakers, seems questionably attainable with current technology. No one is bashing GMA. None/Few of us have heard it. But we're skeptical because there's still, to our minds, little to show us why GMA is a choice worth examining.

I'm not antagonizing you either. Maybe in fact, the GMAs are excellent speakers, both subjectively and objectively.

I'm just saying that it's nice that you love your speakers. But you, like all the others in the GMA thread, literally have 5 posts on this forum, 4 of which are in this thread. When you create an account just to talk about a speaker, it kind of blemishes your immediate credibility. How are you to convince to hear a speaker which can't be found anywhere near me, when everything you've said could easily be said about the worst boses and the best revels and the worst sonys.

Preference is a fickle thing. I can invite you to come listen to, say, the Lambda Unity Horn, because people say it sounds great. What does that mean to you? Not a thing. Maybe it sparks your interest, but how much further will you take it beyond that?

Now if you go look at the website, you'll see design explanations etc. Those are what someone like Jerry Love could look at and help see if it's worth the effort. The same applies to the Green Mountain stuff and that's why there was much discussion in that thread. Understanding speaker design isn't important, but once you begin to, you start to recognize the designs which sound great. It becomes easier to find speakers you'll probably love and identify ones you probably will not. Why do you have a problem with this?
 
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C

Captain Audio

Audiophyte
Your assumption to me knowing little on the subject is incorrect. I assume you are referring to loudspeaker design?

Where shall we start and what is it that you would like to debate in regard to, let's say crossover design? What is your experience with time coherence and phase shift within the parameters of loudspeaker design? Why is it that since you feel they are of minor importance or of potential "compromises in sound" that we should accept that as fact?

Could it be that those that hear the effect of time coherence and phase shift are all just bowing to the Piper?

Please, let's pontificate a little further. Because I dont go on audio sites and espouse the virtues of a specific technology and dissect it to it's minutia, doesn't mean that I know little on the subject matter. Just so happens that I might know more than you think. I disnt feel the need to delve into the science behind it.

Shall we start with driver selection and proper matching? Cabinet construction, filter slopes, passive versus active crossovers? cabinet damping and bracing, insertion loss in higher order slopes?

Please do not make assumptions from atop your perch about my knowledge on anything. Your response is eagerly anticipated.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Your assumption to me knowing little on the subject is incorrect. I assume you are referring to loudspeaker design?

Where shall we start and what is it that you would like to debate in regard to, let's say crossover design? What is your experience with time coherence and phase shift within the parameters of loudspeaker design? Why is it that since you feel they are of minor importance or of potential "compromises in sound" that we should accept that as fact?

Could it be that those that hear the effect of time coherence and phase shift are all just bowing to the Piper?

Please, let's pontificate a little further. Because I dont go on audio sites and espouse the virtues of a specific technology and dissect it to it's minutia, doesn't mean that I know little on the subject matter. Just so happens that I might know more than you think. I disnt feel the need to delve into the science behind it.

Shall we start with driver selection and proper matching? Cabinet construction, filter slopes, passive versus active crossovers? cabinet damping and bracing, insertion loss in higher order slopes?

Please do not make assumptions from atop your perch about my knowledge on anything. Your response is eagerly anticipated.
Quit trolling.
 
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