GR Research Hot topic?

j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
There are many strange constructs in the world of physics/mathematics that can be very hard for one's common logic and his sense of truth (as perceived by his senses) to accept, y'know? For instance, if i said, hey, Mr. Garcia, you are not really sitting there in front of your computer, but, you are appearing and disappearing a gazillion times every nanosecond. Amir Majimoomoo's noggin and his li'l Klippel are both going to implode if they heard that. A subatomic particle like the electron itself is a very questionable li'l thing (wave like nature, particle like nature, all kinds of interesting stuff)..And the listener himself...We might as well start with the clinically deaf composers and musicians out there...Generally, it may be a better idea to not have strong beliefs and disbeliefs with these types of things, it could be a better idea to try and relate to these things instead (IMO, of course).

But, if a guy tries to sell another guy a cable and connector that costs as much as a truck, you know he's got the guy on all fours and is liberating him real hard. A profound piece of wire and a connector could never cost more than 50 bucks. As long as we hang on to this profound truth, we should all be ok ;).
I mean, we all know about snake oil products. I realize not everyone understands or even tries to understand how these things work. Some people just want to believe and you can't really do much about that. Not everyone is going to come to someplace like AH and read real info and debunk claims. Those believers hear "blind test" and think we're crazy and we hear "cable risers" and think the same. I totally agree that expensive cables with all their ridiculous claims serve no purpose other than to line someone's pocket, but trying to convince certain people of that is nigh impossible. You can lead them to water... We can't save them all lol. When you don't see those same kinds of cables being used for anything else on earth, there's a good chance they're snake oil; caveat emptor.

Unfortunately, many people find AH after buying some wild product because they still have a question about it or it didn't do what they expected and they've come to the conclusion they've been taken. People want to validate their purchases after the fact. The people who research first are less common. I stumbled onto an AH article while researching something or other as I recall, and I've been here ever since.

I get Dennis and others are saying, there's a big difference between offering something and actually trying to convince people.
 
J

JLB

Audiophyte
I had just started to notice the GR-Research videos after I began research on some speakers (I ended up recently purchasing 2 x RP-6000F on sale $349.99ea CDN). I have also auditioned these speakers so I know I am happy with them (especially at the sale price).

"Ohhhh Klipsch" - it's as though you've never made speakers before. Hyperbole doesn't phase me.

GR sells 'the components' meaning the cross-over circuit has not changed. I assume he tweaks some of the component values AND as he says, offers higher quality components. I am a little curious as to the 'tweaking' of component values to 'flatten response' and perhaps this should be tested, although I am more skeptical about component quality. I think this does not matter in terms of PCB material and the PCB is not part of the 'cheese'. The only parts in a cross-over are resistors, capacitors, and inductors in simple filter arrangements. Resistors that can handle watts of power come in various compositions and tolerances and voltages. My guess is resistance value is the most important quality. All other resistor properties like tolerance, temperature coefficient, and composition like metal film/wire wound/ceramic all make a MINIMAL impact that wouldn't be noticed. I can't imagine that a 10 ohm wire wound resistor would make a difference compared to a 10 ohm metal film resistor. I would need proof in this respect.

I see a kit exists for the 6000f. I'd love to see what the kit does before spending a truck-load of cash.
 
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T

ThunderClap

Audioholic
He’s a clownass Texan

Send me your speaker and I’ll let you know how it is to fix .

Okay Jimmy Swaggert


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
He implies that they would sound a lot better with more expensive parts. But to your point, if they already sound good why bother regardless of the parts quality.
In most of the speaker videos I watched, he does modify them and show you before and after results. Usually his best results are with the really budget speakers, but then his crossover kits can cost as much, or more, than the speakers did! I'd love for Audioholics to review one of these Kits.
Danny won't submit his products for 3rd party testing. I've asked several times in the past. He actually recently did a video inviting me out to his place which I thought was nice but I'm not driving half way across the country just to get a chance to listen to his product and still not be able to do 3rd party testing of it. I appreciate his demeanor and I'm sure it would be fun to get together one day. But, I do find many of his claims about cables and upgrade parts to be questionable and anecdotal at best.

 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Danny won't submit his products for 3rd party testing. I've asked several times in the past. He actually recently did a video inviting me out to his place which I thought was nice but I'm not driving half way across the country just to get a chance to listen to his product and still not be able to do 3rd party testing of it. I appreciate his demeanor and I'm sure it would be fun to get together one day. But, I do find many of his claims about cables and upgrade parts to be questionable and anecdotal at best.

He was so pretentious in that video it made me sick and it really, really turned me off to record day. I truly do dislike GR research and Danny.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Chief
Danny won't submit his products for 3rd party testing. I've asked several times in the past. He actually recently did a video inviting me out to his place which I thought was nice but I'm not driving half way across the country just to get a chance to listen to his product and still not be able to do 3rd party testing of it. I appreciate his demeanor and I'm sure it would be fun to get together one day. But, I do find many of his claims about cables and upgrade parts to be questionable and anecdotal at best.

I'm probably a bit more skeptical than you on his cable and parts claims, but I am open minded enough to look at an independent technical review of his work.

@gene One of the members here => @Pandaman617 had his SVS Ultra Center "upgraded by Danny. He said in an earlier post" I’ve got the REW graphs and pics of the SVS before and after somewhere and if I can find them I’ll upload them." Hopefully he'll do it soon, but you can see the Danny's video on it starting at 6:05 here:

SVS Ultra Center YouTube

He posts his graphs (before and after) at about 9:11.

Gene, I have an idea, if Pandaman617 would send you his modified SVS Ultra Center for review, would you do it and post the results here? Of course it would be great to compare the new results to the data sent (before and after) that Danny sent to Pandaman617. I don't remember it Audioholics already did a review on SVS Ultra Center, but I'm thinking it has been done.

Sounds like great content for the Site, and perhaps a monster YouTube video too!
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I'm probably a bit more skeptical than you on his cable and parts claims, but I am open minded enough to look at an independent technical review of his work.

@gene One of the members here => @Pandaman617 had his SVS Ultra Center "upgraded by Danny. He said in an earlier post" I’ve got the REW graphs and pics of the SVS before and after somewhere and if I can find them I’ll upload them." Hopefully he'll do it soon, but you can see the Danny's video on it starting at 6:05 here:

SVS Ultra Center YouTube

He posts his graphs (before and after) at about 9:11.

Gene, I have an idea, if Pandaman617 would send you his modified SVS Ultra Center for review, would you do it and post the results here? Of course it would be great to compare the new results to the data sent (before and after) that Danny sent to Pandaman617. I don't remember it Audioholics already did a review on SVS Ultra Center, but I'm thinking it has been done.

Sounds like great content for the Site, and perhaps a monster YouTube video too!
I'd like to get James Larson to do this and get a fresh sample from SVS so he can measure stock vs modded if it happens.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Danny won't submit his products for 3rd party testing. I've asked several times in the past. He actually recently did a video inviting me out to his place which I thought was nice but I'm not driving half way across the country just to get a chance to listen to his product and still not be able to do 3rd party testing of it. I appreciate his demeanor and I'm sure it would be fun to get together one day. But, I do find many of his claims about cables and upgrade parts to be questionable and anecdotal at best.

Very diplomatic! Lol
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
So I rarely do rebuttal videos but I felt this was appropriate:
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Field Marshall
He’s a clownass Texan

Send me your speaker and I’ll let you know how it is to fix .

Okay Jimmy Swaggert


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Sure sounds like a smooth talking fast Eddie Jimmy Swaggart. The dude to his right with his t-shirt of a UFO, with a dude being beamed up, say enough. Lol
 
P

PacketofCrisps

Audioholic Intern
I was never really a fan of Danny tbh, but this latest video went to far imo, calling out other reviewers while he is using Youtube to sell his products, products that sell on the premise that all speakers require his upgrade kits!, it's not exactly impartial is it, I'm not sure how so many of his followers don't see this, or at least take this into consideration.

So I rarely do rebuttal videos but I felt this was appropriate:
You took the video down?


edit -

Up again now, thought you might of had seconds thoughts!
 
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S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Bottom line is invitations presented in public rather than private turns the invitation into a provocation to called-out reviewers. This suggests the called-out reviewers are not fully credentialed and are in need of more training; thus, a predicament, whereby the called-out reviewers will suffer credibility whether they accept or reject the invitation. This would upset me if I was a credentialed reviewer. One more thing, if the motivation for the invitation is to enlighten, acceptance of it means the called-out reviewer is also accepting GR Research as a master of excellence and, of course, that is problematic.
Now, there are plenty of reviewers out there in all manner of expertise who have no credentials to profess or even make an informed opinion. My expertise is in the arena of Long-Range Shooting, and I can tell you there are folks on YouTube telling me how to do it who do not have a clue about how to do it. Thing is, a novice does not know these how to do it videos are presented by folks that do not know that they don't know, thus, "I learned it on the Internet" may be suspect.
 
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H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I can't stand his little catch phrases or cliche words like "cheese" or now "green". So fucking pretentious. I truly can't stand him.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Sure sounds like a smooth talking fast Eddie Jimmy Swaggart. The dude to his right with his t-shirt of a UFO, with a dude being beamed up, say enough. Lol
true.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
P

PacketofCrisps

Audioholic Intern
Re-watching Danny's video, I really hate this statement he comes out with,

"You don't come across as audiophiles, you're not there yet, your reviewing budget level gear",

It's this type of antiquated pompous attitude that put's people off this hobby, there is no budget for being a 'audiophile', all that is required is being enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and it's quality,

He calls out 'bedroom' reviewers due to a bed being in the corner of the room, and people having lack of room treatment, and although I understand the importance setting speakers up optimally that just isn't a luxury many of us have.

He says you can't really trust these reviewers based on their less than optimal environments, but does he really know the danger of trusting speakers review and measurements done in a studio or treated listening room, you then fall into potentially a worse trap which many people do at their local hi-fi store, we all know what's it like to hear a speaker in a local stores listening room and be wowed, only to get it home and feel disappointed, I think more speakers should be tested and reviewed in 'normal' environments tbh, I mean ultimately that's the sound that will most probably be more relatable.
 
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A

Am_P

Full Audioholic
Danny won't submit his products for 3rd party testing. I've asked several times in the past. He actually recently did a video inviting me out to his place which I thought was nice but I'm not driving half way across the country just to get a chance to listen to his product and still not be able to do 3rd party testing of it. I appreciate his demeanor and I'm sure it would be fun to get together one day. But, I do find many of his claims about cables and upgrade parts to be questionable and anecdotal at best.

He is not saying he won't send his products to any reviewer. He is saying that he won't waste his time sending stuff to the weasels and dimwits on Youtube. In fact, he said he liked you. If you can't go, why don't you send ...say Matthew Poes? He can receive the GR speakers and measure it every way possible. I doubt it will be any different from the measurements GR himself releases for his speakers (He is no anti-measurement weasel like your other buddy at Synergistic Research). But, as a measure of reciprocation, it would be fair if Matthew Poes also went down to Texas and did some subjective listening tests in the GR Lab/Room where the designer also did his listening tests before he called it good. After all, you can't measure everything you can hear, can you? You can't hear everything you can measure, can you?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
He is not saying he won't send his products to any reviewer. He is saying that he won't waste his time sending stuff to the weasels and dimwits on Youtube. In fact, he said he liked you. If you can't go, why don't you send ...say Matthew Poes? He can receive the GR speakers and measure it every way possible. I doubt it will be any different from the measurements GR himself releases for his speakers (He is no anti-measurement weasel like your other buddy at Synergistic Research). But, as a measure of reciprocation, it would be fair if Matthew Poes also went down to Texas and did some subjective listening tests in the GR Lab/Room where the designer also did his listening tests before he called it good. After all, you can't measure everything you can hear, can you? You can't hear everything you can measure, can you?
Sounds great but who will pay Matthew Poes for his time and travel expenses? This would be a win/lose scenario for me. GR Research wins by getting free publicity, I lose by spending thousands of my own money for this exercise. We don't run a 401c here. Things cost money and I chose to spend my money wisely on content creation for this magazine.
 
Pandaman617

Pandaman617

Full Audioholic
I'm probably a bit more skeptical than you on his cable and parts claims, but I am open minded enough to look at an independent technical review of his work.

@gene One of the members here => @Pandaman617 had his SVS Ultra Center "upgraded by Danny. He said in an earlier post" I’ve got the REW graphs and pics of the SVS before and after somewhere and if I can find them I’ll upload them." Hopefully he'll do it soon, but you can see the Danny's video on it starting at 6:05 here:

SVS Ultra Center YouTube

He posts his graphs (before and after) at about 9:11.

Gene, I have an idea, if Pandaman617 would send you his modified SVS Ultra Center for review, would you do it and post the results here? Of course it would be great to compare the new results to the data sent (before and after) that Danny sent to Pandaman617. I don't remember it Audioholics already did a review on SVS Ultra Center, but I'm thinking it has been done.

Sounds like great content for the Site, and perhaps a monster YouTube video too!
Hi guys I have no issue sending my center to Gene for review! I had the REW data stored on my icloud and must have deleted it a while ago as I don’t pay the extra $ for additional storage. That being said I do have the center still and would pay to send it to Gene out of my pocket. I trust him and Audioholics in general and would love to see my personal feelings that it didn’t do anything validated. The graphs I had showed It did absolutely nothing but without empirical evidence I don’t want to make that claim and would love to have a professional like one of you guys do it.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Senior Audioholic
Staff member
He is not saying he won't send his products to any reviewer. He is saying that he won't waste his time sending stuff to the weasels and dimwits on Youtube. In fact, he said he liked you. If you can't go, why don't you send ...say Matthew Poes? He can receive the GR speakers and measure it every way possible. I doubt it will be any different from the measurements GR himself releases for his speakers (He is no anti-measurement weasel like your other buddy at Synergistic Research). But, as a measure of reciprocation, it would be fair if Matthew Poes also went down to Texas and did some subjective listening tests in the GR Lab/Room where the designer also did his listening tests before he called it good. After all, you can't measure everything you can hear, can you? You can't hear everything you can measure, can you?
Can Matthew Poes have a say in this?

I would happily review his gear. When this idea first came up, I sent Gene some products from his website that I said seemed most appropriate. I suspect my measurments will be a bit better than his. My stand is 6.5’ tall and if we put this stand outside I should be able to get a clean IR with no other reflections but the ground. I now have 12” anechoic wedges that I have found reduces the strength of the ground bounce. This allows the gates measurements to be clean down to 200hz and less corrupted down to 150hz. His measurments appear to be done inside at a relatively close distance with gating at 3-4ms. His measurements are very smooth below 800hz.

I am not super keen on going to his place for a number of reasons. First, I don’t know his reference and my surroundings would be unfamiliar. I couldn’t be very objective about my subjective experience. I’ve heard lots of very enjoyable systems that I knew were flawed and hears those flaws better when I could either listen under more controlled conditions or in my own space. I have a 2yr old, 7 yr old, essentially 3 jobs, my wife has a business that keeps her working a lot. If I do this, we have to pay someone to stay with my wife for the entire time I am gone to help with the kids. It’s hugely expensive. I just don’t do this kind of thing for free anymore. My time has become too valuable.

I also found the video quite pretentious. It made a lot of presumptions about people like me without data to make such claims. He believes his reference is better than mine? Why? I have no idea how my reference compares to his. I have no idea what he had for equipment. Or a room. I professional design and treat room. I am working on some of the largest projects in the country. Multi-million dollar rooms. My own listening room isn’t done yet, but it’s my second such room. Sound mitigation, floating floor, will be fully treated. Excellent room ratios. You can’t do a room as good as mine without spending at least what I did. Without my design services or the cost of speciality materials I got at cost or donated to the project, that room was an additional $50,000. I would estimate another $10-15k in specialty materials. Retail on the acoustic treatments is around another $25k. And quite frankly I don’t think you need all that to evaluate the quality of a speaker. As Toole and Olive have noted, most typical living rooms with typical “stuff of life” are close enough to work fine. Dedicated rooms like mine need treatment specifically because they have no stuff of life in them (and because a dedicated room is going for predictable performance that meets a certain objective and requires engineered solutions to achieve that).
 

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