Getting started with surround system

[Silverstorm]

Hi all,

I'm quite new to the surround sound arena. Never had surround before, but the house we bought last year has the speakers and wiring already installed, plus an obvious place to mount a TV (already done). I'm primarily looking for video setup, so pure audio would be a secondary concern right now. In doing a lot of reading, I think most things make sense, but I do have some questions.

First, about the current speakers I have. They're Proficient Audio in-ceiling speakers. 4 are the C790 (125W), and the 5th is C800 (150W) model. What's weird to me is that the 150W one is in the front right, and that doesn't make sense. It seems that it should be the center. I haven't investigated the wiring (pre-installed wall plate has 5 pairs of red/black clips and a sub jack) too thoroughly, but should I look at swapping it to the center? Does it really matter? What difference would I notice?

Second, watts. I understand that watts = power, and I think that the watt ratings on speakers are what they can handle continuously. Assuming I'm correct on that, then does it even make sense to look for receiver/amps that output more power than that?

Another watt question. My budget isn't too big, so what's the difference between getting a receiver that can drive the speakers, but only at 75wpc, compared to a receiver with preouts that goes to an amp that could drive 125wpc? Is it quality, volume, or something else?

Information discovery, does that consist of going and downloading manuals to find things, or is there an audio equivalent of Newegg's power searches, where I can say that I want so many HDMI, these codecs, this many outputs, this real power capability, etc.?

Thanks!

 

[AVRat]

1. It probably won’t matter since you’ll probably cross them to a sub at 80 Hz, the woofer material is different and allows the 800 a lower frequency response thus the higher power handling capability, but for ease of mind you could swap them.

2. Speakers are more easily damaged by underpowering and overdriving than the opposite. IOW it’s good to have some extra power on hand. If you don’t listen at loud volume, a decent 75W receiver should be fine.

3. Yes, manual/spec research. No easy feature search engine. Actually, members here are already a wealth of information and most, like myself, can recommend good options based on your requirements. A lot of times the problem is not enough info provided. Generic questions suck!

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Hi all,

I'm quite new to the surround sound arena. Never had surround before, but the house we bought last year has the speakers and wiring already installed, plus an obvious place to mount a TV (already done). I'm primarily looking for video setup, so pure audio would be a secondary concern right now. In doing a lot of reading, I think most things make sense, but I do have some questions.

First, about the current speakers I have. They're Proficient Audio in-ceiling speakers. 4 are the C790 (125W), and the 5th is C800 (150W) model. What's weird to me is that the 150W one is in the front right, and that doesn't make sense. It seems that it should be the center. I haven't investigated the wiring (pre-installed wall plate has 5 pairs of red/black clips and a sub jack) too thoroughly, but should I look at swapping it to the center? Does it really matter? What difference would I notice?

Second, watts. I understand that watts = power, and I think that the watt ratings on speakers are what they can handle continuously. Assuming I'm correct on that, then does it even make sense to look for receiver/amps that output more power than that?

Another watt question. My budget isn't too big, so what's the difference between getting a receiver that can drive the speakers, but only at 75wpc, compared to a receiver with preouts that goes to an amp that could drive 125wpc? Is it quality, volume, or something else?

Information discovery, does that consist of going and downloading manuals to find things, or is there an audio equivalent of Newegg's power searches, where I can say that I want so many HDMI, these codecs, this many outputs, this real power capability, etc.?

Thanks!

Welcome Silverstorm,

Here are the product descriptions:

For bigger rooms, the C790 gives you more of a good thing, thanks to the increased power handling and more low end bass from its 8" woofer. What's more, it is assembled using the finest components for years of trouble-free service.

Features:

* Design: 2-Way coaxial in-ceiling
* Tweeter: Pivoting 1” silk dome
* Woofer: 8” polypropylene cone with butly rubber surround
* Sensitivity: 92dB
* Frequency Response: 36Hz-20kHz
* Impedance: 8 Ohms
* Power Handling: 5-125 Watts
* Speaker Dimensions: Diameter 11-1/8” X Depth 4-1/4”

The C800 is perfect for the high-power sound system configured in a big space. High fidelity components; such as a 1” aluminum cone tweeter and 8” injection molded graphite (IMG) woofer; give it a powerful bass response, higher sound-pressure output and stunning dynamic response. This is the speaker for a high-end home theater or main listening room.

Features:

* Design: 2-Way coaxial in-ceiling
* Tweeter: Pivoting 1” aluminum dome
* Contour Switches: +3dB Bass and +3dB Treble
* Woofer: 8” Injection molded graphite (IMG) cone with rubber surround
* Sensitivity: 92dB
* Frequency Response: 28Hz-22kHz
* Impedance: 8O
* Power Handling: 5-150 Watts
* Speaker Dimensions: Diameter 11-1/4” X Depth 4-1/4”
* Cut-Out Dimensions: 9-7/8”
* Cut-Out Dimensions: 9-7/8”

As you can see the driver materials are different. I believe you will notice. I would try to find another C790 personally but if I wasn't looking to spend any money right away I would move the C800 to the center position so the left and right are the same for stereo tracks.

These speakers have a very efficient sensitivity rating so you don't need a ton of amplification unless the room is huge. Keep it simple and stick with a receiver. Audioholics has/had a receiver guide somewhere...I did a quick search but didn't see it.

As long as you have amps that can drive the load your speakers present then more wattage will give more dynamic range (to a point). I would buy as much power as you can afford.

Good luck and let us know what you wind up with!

-SBF1

 

[Silverstorm]

The room isn't big at all, but it is fairly long due to being the combined kitchen, dining, and living area. It's about 14' wide and 36' long, with the TV on one of the 14' walls. So we sit about 10' from the wall, and have ~25' open space behind us. It definitely isn't huge, so I doubt I'll really need much amplification at all.

AVRat, I'm curious about your comment on damaging speakers by underpowering them being an easier way to damage them. Since the power handling on these is 5-125W, doesn't that mean 75W should work fine, and not present any damaging problems?

As far as needs from the receiver, we're planning on swapping from cable to a combo of Netflix and Hulu (or other internet streaming from PC) since I'm sick of Comcast. We currently have a Pioneer DVD player, but once we get Netflix going, I'll be looking for a BD player, and I understand that the PS3 is the way to go. So I think we'll only need 2, maybe 3 HDMI inputs, which means I'll probably want to get something that has 4. I'm not anticipating adding side surround, but I don't have to stick with 5.1 if all my options are 7.1. 2nd zone isn't required, since I'm not looking at running cable between rooms or floors any time soon. 1080p scaling would be forward-looking, since our Samsung LN-T3253H only does 720p. We've discussed something larger, but that will likely be a ways out.

I've been looking at things like Denon's AVR-790, Onkyo's 508 and 608, Pioneer's 819 / 820 (the iPod connection is nice, since my wife has a Nano). I don't have a lot of ventilation room, so I'm hesitant on the Onkyo's, since I've seen quite a few comments regarding excessive heat.

Any others I should consider?

Oh, and I haven't really started in on subs, so any places to start would be awesome!

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Give us some budget numbers and we can point you in some directions. (plural)

 

[Silverstorm]

Well, let's go with absolute max at $1500, and that would include:

• Receiver
• Subwoofer
• PS3
• Wiring - 5 connections of normal speaker wire with clips, no fancy plugs; 2 cords for the sub (into wall, out from wall back where there's a jack for it pre-installed)
• Amp - maybe

I'd post pictures of the wall plates, but I need 5 posts first!

 

[bandphan]

When you mention wiring, is that just the price of the wire? Or to have someone wire 5 speakers in wall wiring? If it is for the labor we charge around a 1/3 of your budget to do just the wiring work Usually around 800 for 5 speakers and connections to up 5 components, including their setup. (this would include the wire only and no interconnects)

 

[Silverstorm]

It's just the actual wire. The house came with the speakers and in-wall wiring pre-installed, so I'd just have to get wire to connect from receiver/amp to the wall plate.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Well, let's go with absolute max at $1500, and that would include:

• Receiver
• Subwoofer
• PS3
• Wiring - 5 connections of normal speaker wire with clips, no fancy plugs; 2 cords for the sub (into wall, out from wall back where there's a jack for it pre-installed)
• Amp - maybe

I'd post pictures of the wall plates, but I need 5 posts first!

Oh yeah, are there any restrictions on the sub. I'd want to spend the most money on the sub(s). Look at SVS, Hsu & Epik toget an idea of how big they can get and what they look like. (if you haven't already)

 

[AVRat]

If a unit is cranked up too far, the amp may start clipping which can cause damage to tweeters/voice coils.

The Denon 790 would be a great choice.

I would jump on this sub quick while it’s on sale - $467: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html

 

[Silverstorm]

Looked at the subs from Epik, Hsu, and SVS. My thinking right now is to wait for SVS to release their new SB12-NSD. The PB plus line is a little much, especially given my budget. The SB13-Plus might be an option, depends on where the price falls. The Hsu is quite a bit bigger, and my wife isn't thrilled about where it might have to sit to get a good sound from it.

So what I'm seeing so far is this:

Denon AVR-790 - $500
SVS PB12-NSD - $600 (because I don't have a price on the SB12-NSD or SB13-Plus yet)
PS3 - $300 for the 120GB from bestbuy.com (Amazon has horrid prices on it, dunno why)
Wires - not much

So that's $1400 + sub/PS3 shipping (Denon AVR from Amazon Prime), which leaves a little head room for the sub, so might be able to bump that up to the SB12-NSD or SB13-Plus when they come out this spring.

The Hsu, if the size winds up being acceptable, would be $650 for the VTF2-MK3, and $800 for the VTF3-MK3.

Any other options I'm missing around this level? Thoughts on the new Pioneer *20 series? They look pretty good from the reviews on the main page here. I know their power is a bit overrated from reading the manuals, but I can use the power from the specs in the manuals; that's not a big deal to me.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Denon AVR-790 - $500
SVS PB12-NSD - $600
PS3 - $300 for the 120GB from bestbuy.com (Amazon has horrid prices on it, dunno why)
Wires - not much

That was pretty much what I was thinking from the get go.

The estimated price for the sealed SVS's will be $699 for the 12" and $1699 for the 13".

DIYing a sub is another alternative if you have the time/skills/tools and it will yield more bang for your buck but you don't have the skills it could look like crap if your not careful.

 

[Silverstorm]

OK, think I'm pretty set on the Denon 790, the SVS SB12-NSD when it gets here, and the PS3 (though I don't intend on much, if any, gaming on it).

Two more questions now:

1) Sealed vs. ported. Is there a distinct sound difference or anything? I'm not concerned about the opening now, but in a few years, with toddlers running around, I'd be a little concerned what they might try. Understandably, I also might have reason/desire/etc to switch subs by then, just depends.

2) Since I'm waiting on the new SB12-NSD, is there any concern over getting the 790/PS3 now (coupon code over at AVS for the 790!) and starting without the sub? Is that going to cause any issues with my speakers, or will I just be missing that bass impact?

Really appreciate the help you guys have offered! I'm learning, so I want to understand the basic whys and I'll get to the harder ones later.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Sealed vs. ported...Good bass is good bass in my opinion. There are differences but both will sound great when set up properly.



No problem at all with starting with out a sub. you will just miss out on the bass that your speakers can't output.

 

[Silverstorm]

Just wanted to give an update here, since I've made a couple purchases. The PS3 is on its way from Amazon, and doing some looking over at AVS forum, I came across a discount code for the Denon receivers on Electronics Expo. As a result, I will be getting the 2310 instead of the 790. They just have the 4 digit Denons that I could see, and the discount dropped the price all the way down to between the 790 and 1910 MSRPs. So, definitely a happy dance there. I'll get an additional HDMI (never know how many I'll need!), full GUI over HDMI menu, another 15Wpc, and some other small things.

The response I got from SVS was given my room size (~4500 cu.ft.) that the PB12-NSD would be more filling than the SB12-NSD that still doesn't have a launch date. So, assuming WAF is high enough on the black color and larger size of the PB12 versus the wood finishes and small cube of the SB12, I will go with the PB12, and the total will be right around $1550, pre-cables and furniture.

I'm excited!

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Fun isn't it! Pretty soon your wife will be telling you to turn it down!!!

 

[Silverstorm]

Heh, right now I'm the one who has to turn down the radio in her car when I drive it. I think she's gonna be alright with the PB12, so long as we can sorta "hide" it under a table or something. I'm not really sure what I can do with that, or how much space it will need to be effective. Any ideas?