General Audio Guidance . . .

Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Greetings . . . I've been out of the audio world for a while . . .(& would consider myself a rookie in this world) . . . my Receiver is a Yamaha rx-v2095 (which was new when I purchased it back in 1999). My speakers set-up at that time was really forgettable & I've since sold all and my Yamaha has been in storage for several years . . .(moved 10x in 17 years) . . . just became too much to lug all that stuff around.

IN any case, of my previous A/V system the Yamaha RX-V2095 was the only thing that I've carried forward. And I recently picked up the Paradigm Studio 100's v5, CC-690 & surrounds. I suppose the sub will happen some time in the future ... just didn't feel the need for one at the moment. So, it seems like I need to give some thought to upgrading this Yamaha; so, I was thinking of going w/ the amp first and then as time /money permitted the switching out the processor. FIRST QUESTION: Does that seem reasonable? Can anyone tell me if this Yamaha would be a good fit & would be okay pushing these speakers w/out possibly damaging them? . . . please excuse me if I'm misstating the terminology here.. .

Then my next question is, in looking at amps, is an am going to help with the "quality" of sound as well as "volume"? Because I'm not really a loud-volume kind of person . . . but I will be using this system for music & home theater. So, if the only benefit of an amp is volume? I'd probably think twice . . . I'm really looking for quality of sound (and I do realize that's relative). Lastly, I seem to read A LOT about power conditioners . . . in my own ignorance, this seems to be a bit like snake-oil to me . . . and everyone has differing opinions on this (which usually seems to lead the direction of their purchase; meaning biased) . . . can someone tell me how this power conditioner is suppose to benefit the quality of my sound?

I do appreciate anyone taking the time to read & respond to this . . .

Regards,

Steve
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Simple solution: Denon 4311ci

-Has the power to handle your Studio 100s
-Latest and greatest Audyessy Auto EQ system
-9.1 expandability 11.1 if you use the zone 2 outputs
-Current Codecs
-I own one.;)
-Airplay
-OSD is pretty easy to use
-Pre-outs so it can but used as a Pre-Pro
-Available at discounted pricing now
-HDMI

Denon AVR-4311CI
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Then my next question is, in looking at amps, is an am going to help with the "quality" of sound as well as "volume"? Because I'm not really a loud-volume kind of person . . . but I will be using this system for music & home theater. So, if the only benefit of an amp is volume? I'd probably think twice . . . I'm really looking for quality of sound (and I do realize that's relative).
At low volumes pretty much any amp will do - we are talking VERY mild requirements, but for the occasional loud scene in the movie you need the extra juice nicer amps like one in 4311 offers.


Lastly, I seem to read A LOT about power conditioners . . . in my own ignorance, this seems to be a bit like snake-oil to me . . . and everyone has differing opinions on this (which usually seems to lead the direction of their purchase; meaning biased) . . . can someone tell me how this power conditioner is suppose to benefit the quality of my sound?
Steve
Unless component designer did a piss poor job - Power conditioner would NOT give you ANY sound improvements, they could protect your devices from voltage spikes and potentially extend it's life...
 
brianedm

brianedm

Audioholic General
Unless component designer did a piss poor job - Power conditioner would NOT give you ANY sound improvements, they could protect your devices from voltage spikes and potentially extend it's life...
Seconded. To me it just makes sense to give protection to all of your electronics (Usually well over $1000 in this hobby). Some power conditioners (such as mine) also have battery back up so my modem and pvr stay working during power outages as well.
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to Matt34

Hey Matt34,

I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definitely take the time to look into the Denon product you cited.

That being said, and I sincerely mean no disrespect w/ this following statement, but you didn't really answer my questions. And perhaps that's my fault for not being a bit more concise.

I'm wanting to gradually move away from the AVR setup into separates . . . starting w/ my current AVR the Yamaha RX-V2095... I was wanting to know if it was reasonable to first move to an external amp (as my Yamaha has preouts) & then as time & money permits, update to a higher level processor . . . does that make sense.

That being said, I will still check out the Denon product you cited because even though I'm a rookie at this . . . I do like to look at all my options . . .and who knows, because of my lack of expertise, I may chicken out in the end and return to an updated AVR . . .

Thanks again for the info & for taking the time to reply

. . .and BTW (I'm new at this) but was that sarcasm (the emoticon)??

Best Regards,

Steve
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Response to BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin,

Thanks for the info . . . and as I mentioned in my reply to Matt34, I'm looking to move away from the AVR . . . as I'd like to begin to dedicate more time to this forgotten hobby as my numerous medical issues have truly limited the things in life that I'm able to enjoy . . . and music is one of those things . . . I know, I know TMI, my apologies . . . in any case, are there certain amps that you would consider for someone like me (just making that jump to separate components) . . . & that would pair up nicely w/ my Paradigm system? I guess the Yamaha doesn't really matter, because I'd expect to change that in the future (as money and time permit) ... some have pointed me in the direction of the Emotiva line . . .but there seems to be a lot of back-n-forth out there . . . anyway, any thoughts you have here would be appreciated . . .

Also, could you clarify your statement below, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're getting at here (other than the protection part, got that):

"Unless component designer did a piss poor job - Power conditioner would NOT give you ANY sound improvements, they could protect your devices from voltage spikes and potentially extend it's life.."

Again, I'm appreciative of your response . . . so, please don't take offense to my follow-up questions.

Regards,

Steve
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Brianedm,

I do appreciate the info and agree w/ the protection argument. . . but I do have a follow up question regarding the "power outage" (1) how will having a functional modem be helpful when most likely your ISP will be down also? and (2) what is a "pvr" . .. please pardon my ignorance . . . but I am a rookie here . . .

p.s., you mentioned that you have a power conditioner; may I ask the make/model?

Regards,
Steve
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Hey Matt34,

I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definitely take the time to look into the Denon product you cited.

That being said, and I sincerely mean no disrespect w/ this following statement, but you didn't really answer my questions. And perhaps that's my fault for not being a bit more concise.

I'm wanting to gradually move away from the AVR setup into separates . . . starting w/ my current AVR the Yamaha RX-V2095... I was wanting to know if it was reasonable to first move to an external amp (as my Yamaha has preouts) & then as time & money permits, update to a higher level processor . . . does that make sense.

I don't think you will notice much of an improvement unless you really are pushing those Paradigms to "elevated" levels. Your Yamaha is lacking many features of todays AVR's/Preamps, that is what I would update first.

That being said, I will still check out the Denon product you cited because even though I'm a rookie at this . . . I do like to look at all my options . . .and who knows, because of my lack of expertise, I may chicken out in the end and return to an updated AVR . . .

Thanks again for the info & for taking the time to reply

. . .and BTW (I'm new at this) but was that sarcasm (the emoticon)??

Sarcasm is usually shown with this guy. :rolleyes: The wink is the "smart-***" emoticon.

Best Regards,

Steve
I'm not the most informed in regards to pre-amps so if that is something you're really interested in someone else will have to answer that.

It would also help to state what your budget is for this upgrade.
 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Moving over to separate these days really only produces audible benefits in a limited number of situations. "Separates" used to conjure up visions of higher quality and better sound. To some extent, they still do. But it's less of a reality now and more of just a lingering perception.

I still say a great external amp is never a bad purchase. But many folks are totally unaware that the vast majority of the time, we're using less than 10 Watts per speaker. In fact, much of time, we're using less than 1 Watt per speaker!

So high Wattage, very powerful amps are really mostly about headroom and dynamics. I WILL say that realistic transients (especially the "attack" of notes right at the beginning of a note) require HUGE swings in power, as those "attacks" can be upwards of 120dB, though they only last for a fraction of a second. The thing is, so few recordings include that full dynamic range of a real life concert. So, again, it's extremely limited in terms of the real world scenarios where the extra power comes in handy.

There is noise floor, lower distortion, and tighter tolerances to consider. These are areas where a good external amp can still be better than an entry or mid-level A/V Receiver. But modern high-end receivers are very good these days. Units like the Denon 4311CI that's been mentioned, or the newest Onkyo TX-NR818, TX-NR1010, TX-NR3010 and TX-NR5010, they all have very impressive power sections and very high quality amps. So separates bring very little to the table in real world performance gains.

You will see more benefit to your sound system by getting a new, high quality, higher-end A/V Receiver than by adding a good external amp to your existing Yamaha. It's not so much that the amps in the new receiver are going to be wildly better. It's really all about getting the new HD Audio lossless formats, excellent Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction, high quality DACs, the latest inputs and HDMI support, and also the newest THX Listening modes and post processing if you go with the any of the Onkyo units that I listed.

Your speakers are easy to drive. So your choice of amplifier isn't going to make much, if any, difference. All of the benefits of a new and cutting edge A/V Receiver are going to improve your sound much more. So that is where I would recommend spending your money at this moment.

Again, I'm not saying there are no benefits to be had from eventually getting an external amp. But right now, if you are looking to get the biggest improvement and best value for your dollars spent, you'll find it in a new, higher-end A/V Receiver. Retire your trusty Yamaha. It's earned your respect and deserves a fitting send off. But there are many new toys to play with these days. And you'll hear a lot more difference with a new A/V Receiver than you will by adding on an external amp to your faithful, but aged Yammy.

:)

And when it comes to separate pre-pros, I see virtually no value in them these days. Higher end units like the Denon and Onkyos listed include a full set of pre-outs. So you can easily connect an external amp to those A/V Receivers if you ever want to.

You can find a handful of dedicated pre-pros that have all the latest features, inputs and formats. But they cost MORE than the A/V Receivers because they sell in such lower quantities. And the ones with all the latest features - like the Integra units - are actually just the exact same design and circuitry as the higher end receivers. Rather than build an entirely new platform, they simply take out the built-in amplifiers, slap in XLR connectors, INCREASE the price, and call it a day! Meanwhile, other pre-pros are outrageously expensive and have WAY fewer features. They don't sound better. They are just aimed at a certain crowd. The crowd that still believes that "separates are always better. No matter what." And that fewer features, inputs and options are actually a good thing somehow. And that a higher price tag ALWAYS means better quality - regardless of what's actually inside the product's chassis!

So yeah, if you want the best pre-pro, you're actually going to wind up buying an A/V Receiver anyway! That's the only way to get the newest features, the newest inputs and the newest processing. And you'll get it for a lower price to boot. And you'll have the option of using either the built in amps, or adding external amps if you want to! All upside. No downside. Perception vs. reality. Separates are just a low value these days. But a great A/V Receiver with a great external amp can still make a lot of sense. But get the receiver first ;)
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Steve, I went back and re-evaluated some of your questions and here my responses:

a) I whole heartily agree with matt - while your AVR uses to be solid , it does lack many modern features, most critically hdmi support and processing of new HD codecs

b) Your front towers specs at : Nominal impedance:8 Ω and Sensitivity 93 dB - (This means your speakers are very EASY to power) and while my quick search I didn't find minimal impedance - I'm pretty confident that external amp will not drastically improve the overall Sound Quality (SQ)

c) It's been established here that as a matter of fact that good AVR (with full pre-outs) is as good vs dedicated processor and the prior cost significantly less due to economies of scale.

d) Power regulators - As I said they DO NOT make SQ improvements, but they just MIGHT help protect your expensive electronics from power surges and help extend it's life. Getting one would not hurt, but don't read too much into this

e) But if you really want big and bad-a$$ AMP look no further than ATI built ones... Also I could be mistaken but I think ATI builds amps for Outlaw as well
Model 7500 Five Channel Power Amplifier
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Matt34,

Thanks . . . & I'm sure I'll be back here often as I have much to learn . . . I know what I enjoy hearing/listening to . . . but am pretty ignorant regarding all the "specs" . . . which is really how I ended up w/ my Paradigms (over other speakers I listened to) . . . listened to many. . .and ended up here . . . but couldn't make head's or tails out of the spec's page . . .

My bad on not including budget info (rookie mistake I suppose), I'm willing to spend what I need to that will give me an appreciable audio experience . . . (& seek therapy for resultant $$ anxiety) . . . and I guess I was under the impression that there was a greater difference (in SQ) between AVRs & separates. . . however, "first reflection" seems to have given a comprehensive enough explanation (for me anyway) to urge me to stay within the AVR side (which is likely what you were getting at) . . .

Side Note regarding budget: I'd be willing to consider all AVRs cited in this thread (price range anyway; open to any/all makes/models); however, I need to become a little better informed . . .

Well, I think I've babbled on way too long . . .thanks again . . .

p.s., looking for a wireless keyboard that's compatible w/ XBox 360 . . . any thoughts?

Regards,
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Response to First Reflection

First Reflection,

Well, that's a lot of information . . .and I appreciate it as I'm in the very early stages of this process . . . (heck I've only had my Paradigms for a few weeks). . .

I appreciate your thorough & well stated response . . . it has definitely given me a lot to consider. Are there other higher end AVRs that you'd recommend . . . if I'm going to consider them; well, then I ought to consider as many as I can . . . Also, do you mind if I come back to this post in the future to ask some questions based on my googling? For example, looking at those Onkyo models I like how they give you this table for comparison:

(Amazon.com: Onkyo TX-NR5010 9.2-Channel THX Certified Network A/V Receiver(Black): Electronics)

. . . and even though much of this is lost on me . . it does permit me to ask questions like "in models 5010 vs 3010, will I really notice the difference between (a) these particular Independent Power Supplies & (b) Gold HDMI Terminals/Gold Speaker Posts & A/V Terminals?"

Regarding my Yamaha: :(, I am definitely saddened as there are many memories attached to it as we picked it up while deployed in Germany for several years . . . blah, blah, blah . . . I realize that you're not Craig (from Craig's list ); but would you have any idea regarding a reasonable price I could put this out there? No worries if you don't feel comfortable responding to this . . . just thought I'd ask . . .

Well, I guess I've got homework to do . . .thanks again.
 
brianedm

brianedm

Audioholic General
Brianedm,

I do appreciate the info and agree w/ the protection argument. . . but I do have a follow up question regarding the "power outage" (1) how will having a functional modem be helpful when most likely your ISP will be down also? and (2) what is a "pvr" . .. please pardon my ignorance . . . but I am a rookie here . . .

p.s., you mentioned that you have a power conditioner; may I ask the make/model?

Regards,
Steve
I have adsl internet (which is over the phone line), in the event of a power outage phone lines aren't affected :) A pvr is what you use to digitally record tv shows. Also, the power conditioner is listed in my sig. APC J35B
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're most welcome!

First up, I would recommend that you use AudiogoN if you want to sell your RX-V2095. The reason is pretty simple: just in terms of features, inputs and formats, the RX-V2095 is well behind even entry-level receivers these days. So non-enthusiasts aren't going to be interested. The RX-V2095 was pretty well known back in its day though, so there are enthusiasts out there who will still remember that model and have more interest in it. And you'll find those folks at AudiogoN ;) Funnily enough, one of the main reasons the RX-V2095 was lauded back in its day was because it made for a really good pre-pro! Back then, not as many A/V Receivers offered full pre-outs, and several that did had low quality, noisy pre-outs. Yamaha came along and used dedicated circuitry for the pre-out section, making it just as good as high end pre-pros back in the day. That was rare back then. Not so rare today ;)

So it's mostly going to be about finding the right buyer. Someone who's actually interested in the history and heritage of the model. A casual home theater fan probably wouldn't pay more than a hundred bucks for it, if that! But there are Yamaha fans out there, who still like to go back and listen to the "classic" products. And the RX-V2095 is one of those "classics". So to that kind of buyer, if its in very good condition, it might be worth $500 or $600 to them.

Again, you shouldn't really expect to get that much. The RX-V2095 is not going to sell at all based on features or inputs. I know it's tough to accept the idea that a receiver that was worth upwards of $1500 back in the day is now almost worthless to most people. But such is the fate of technology. My first PC cost $5000. It had a 50 MB (yes, megabyte) hard drive that cost $500 in it. Tech items don't exactly retain their value :p

In terms of what new A/V Receiver models to consider, I personally stick with models that include Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I really find it very impressive, and the best room correction and EQ that is available at the moment. The Denon 4311CI and most recently updated version of the flagship AVR-5308CI have it. The Onkyo models that I listed before have it. And the Integra sister models (Integra is just the custom installer-centric sub-brand of Onkyo) have it.

The Onkyo TX-NR818 is, by quite a margin, the least expensive unit to include MultEQ XT32. Street price is under $1000. The TX-NR1010 is nearly identical, but adds a couple of possibly useful features, including: independent dual HDMI outputs (the dual outputs on the 818 are just mirrored and always output the same HDMI signal), independent dual subwoofer EQ (so a separate MultEQ XT32 EQ for each of two subwoofers. The 818 EQs both subwoofers in mono), one additional HDMI input (the chart at Amazon isn't quite accurate), and a power section that can pull slightly more current, and allows the 1010 to pass THX Ultra2 Plus standards (again, the Amazon graph is inaccurate) while the 818 is THX Select2 Plus certified.

The TX-NR3010 and TX-NR5010 are essentially identical. There's almost no reason to consider the 5010. It's just the "all out" version that Onkyo develops every year so that they can slap an Integra chassis on it and charge several thousand dollars extra for their customer installer resellers, who always love to have a "step up" model available for their clients who have more money than sense ;)

The 3010 has all the same features and inputs. The "gold plating" on the 5010 does absolutely nothing other than give a shiny gold color for the "more money than sense" crowd to look at and nod their heads approvingly :p The toroidal transformer in the 5010 is technically capable of drawing a bit more current and producing a tiny bit less noise, but the massive EI transformer in the 3010 performs just as well in any real world sense. You'll absolutely never hear the difference. Again, it's just something to justify the hefty price increase to the "more money than sense" crowd ;)

So it's mostly a matter of maybe one or two specific features that might sway you to one model or another. The Onkyos have better video processing than the Denon 4311. That may or may not be worth something to you. The 1010 adds the independent dual HDMI outputs and dual subwoofer EQs. The 3010 just adds two more channels of amplification and the ability to go to an 11.4 speaker setup if you want to.

Personally, I think there are extremely few reasons to go above the superb value of the TX-NR818. I see pretty much zero value in the 8th & 9th "height" channels or the 10th & 11th "width" channels, so I really don't see any need for the 9 or 11 speaker setups. If you have two or four subwoofers, they should all be run in mono anyway, since that is how you obtain the frequency response "smoothing" effects of using multiple subwoofers to control reflected bass waves within your room and across multiple seats. So really, the only reason to even look above the 818 in Onkyo's lineup would be if you really want those dual independent HDMI outputs!

With your Paradigm speakers, the Onkyo 818 (or any of the others) will drive your speakers easily. With more difficult speakers, the 818 might start to struggle a bit and get very toasty. Onkyos do tend to run quite warm regardless. But your speakers are especially easy to drive, so it's a very good match in that respect. And since you'll be spending under $1000 if you go with the 818, you might be that much closer in budget to being able to add a great external amp anyway, which will completely eliminate any concerns about the 818's amplifiers or higher operating temperature.

I tend to be a fan of using monoblock amplifiers myself. If I'm going to use external amps, I'm going to go "whole hog" and demand the absolute lowest noise floor and complete channel separation (zero cross talk). There's really no reason to use an external amplifier otherwise, IMO, since high end A/V Receiver amps are so good these days. The only other possible reason is just sheer Wattage and loudness if you have a huge room, or inefficient speakers.

That said, if you just want to take the burden off of the 818's internal amps and have more power on tap for added headroom and dynamics and realisitic transients, it's awfully hard to ignore the superb value of the Emotiva and ATI amps. As mentioned, ATI is the OEM for many other amplifier brands, including Outlaw Audio, who often sell at lower prices due to their internet-direct sale method.

One fantastic option is to get the XPA-3 from Emotiva to power just your Front Left, Center and Right speakers. The 818 can easily, easily handle the surround channels with its internal amps.

What I would do personally if I were in your shoes and it were my money: I would keep a close eye on accessories4less for a refurbished TX-NR818 to come in stock. Accessories4less is the fully authorized "outlet" dealer for Onkyo, Denon and Marantz. You get a full 1 year warranty (no 90 day BS), and the units are essentially brand new. Even better than brand new, in one way, since they've been fully tested and recertified before being sold ;) $750 for the 818 is insane in terms of value, which is why 818 units sell out the momen they appear there! But if you keep a constant eye out, you might be able to snag one :D

I'd add the $700 Emotiva XPA-3 . With that combo of products, you'll have all the power and features you could possibly want for under $1500! Trust me, a combo like this absolutely shreds what you'd find in a dedicated separates package to pieces. And the sound quality you'd get is second to none. It's just a monumental value. And even if you opt for a brand new 818 unit at around $1000, you'd still be way, way ahead of the game in terms of what anyone would expect for around a $1700 total price. No reason to pay more for external amplification for surround and surround back channels that absolutely do not need it. And superb power for the front 3 speakers that might actually make use of the extra headroom on rare occassions ;) Absolutely bleeding edge features with the TX-NR818 as your controller. And zero worries with the XPA-3 handling the power requirements of the front 3 speakers and unburdening the 818's internal amps.

Not a penny wasted, which is what I love to see. I think you'd be thrilled and floored by that combo. And it'll make it a lot easier to say goodbye to your Yammy once you see and hear what the "new kids" can do ;)
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
It is your money - however, you will not gain much in driving your
Paradigm speakers with an expensive amp > Even a Pioneer Elite
receiver, can drive Klipsch THX speakers. The biggest sound quality
for music, comes from the speaker design, along with your room and
the speaker placement.
I like music, and I will put more into the speakers, than the source
to drive them. Gold or silver conections, different wire designs, and
the so-called power conditioners, do not make much difference.

If you have a real difficult speaker to drive and a large room, and you
want to listen to music and HT at head-banging levels, then the amp
will be a good way to go.

I like Marantz/Denon, Yamaha and Pioneer Elite > I do not get caught
up in the receiver speaker set-up options, I pretty much fired them all.
However, a lot of people benefit from them.

Good Luck, with whatever you decide.
 
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Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Hey there Matt34 . . .

I was just curious to know if you'd have any hesitation w/ something like this:


DENON AVR-4311CI 9.2 Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less

Regards

Steve
I've never used them before but many people here have with success. I'm tempted to pick up some open box KEF speakers from them myself. Comes with a one year warranty so that is good.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/75252-accessories4less-legit-website.html

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/60668-experiences-accessories4less.html
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Thanks FirstReflection . . . I've got some homework to do . . .
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to BoredSysAdmin

Hey there BoredSysAdmin,

I was going back through this thread . . . and it looked like I didn't thank you for your reply; my bad, I appreciate the info and you taking the time to respond (let alone go back over the responses) . . .thanks for that, much appreciated.

Here's an unrelated question, if you wouldn't mind, is this possible and if so, what features am I looking for (besides a USB connector) . . . is it possible to hook up an external hard-drive (digital music) to the higher-end AVRs? If so, should I be looking for particular onboard software?

Thanks,

p.s., I enjoyed the quote at the end of your signature block . . . I will no doubt use it in the future . . .

Shek
 
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