General and specific advice for two home theater setup

T

tahoemark

Audiophyte
This project is for a new to me home and will consist of two separate systems. I generally buy mid range equipment, trying to get the best bang for my buck. On both these systems I am not looking for speaker recommendations yet as I have issues on placement due to structure, room shape, wiring and wife acceptance factor. I anticipate I will install everything with a temporary speaker setup, while I try and figure out the best way to setup the speakers based on the furniture layout and the other issues I mentioned. The house will have Verizon FIOS internet and TV. I would like to be able to stream Netflix, Amazon VOD etc. I’m not interested in gaming, 3d tv (I think it is a gimmick at this point) or any serious music listening.

Living Room- This is main TV viewing area. Equipment would be LCD TV, AV 7.1 receiver, blu ray player, hd dvr, Harmony universal remote.

I anticipate everything will be run through the receiver (all hdmi). In regards to the equipment the hot thing now besides 3D seems to be “network” capability. Sounds great but it seems that there are many limitations? I understand any of the components can have network capability built in, however it seems that there are limitations and drawbacks to every option. So I guess the basic question is what component to I want to have network capable? As far as choices I was thinking a 46-47” LCD TV (LG, Samsung or?) as they seem to be at a good price point and my room isn’t big. For receiver and blu ray player I really have no preference.

Family Room. Similar setup to Living Room with the addition of a project (Epson 8350). The family room would have both a TV for casual viewing and the projector for movies. This obviously brings up the question of receiver with 2 hdmi outputs or monprice powered splitter?

What component do you think should have the network capability? What component should have the upscaling capability?

Budget wise I’m thinking 500-800 for receiver, 800-1000 for tv, 100-250 blu ray player. But this is all subject to your input and suggestions as well.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi there!

I think, as you go along, it might be helpful to break things down into steps and really get organized in terms of what you want and where you want to put it. But for right now, I'll offer some suggestions and more of a general overview.

1) Any home theater is a system - it's more than just the sum of its parts. The single biggest component in your system it the room itself! It's easy to get focused on the gear, but the room is 50% of the system, the gear is only half. In other words, you want to buy gear that works WITH your room, no against it or in spite of it ;)

So my biggest piece of advice? Get a really good handle on your room first before worrying about any gear. If you can, post pictures or diagrams here of your two rooms.

What you want to do is figure out where you are going to place everything in your room. The most important thing is to figure out where you are going to place the seating. If at all possible, for the best acoustics, you want to get your seating AWAY from walls. Many people shove their couch right up against the back wall. They do this for looks and to create the most walking space in the room (which I can understand), but in terms of audio, it's bad placement.

Once you figure out where your seating is going to go, that will determine where your TV and speakers should be positioned. It will also determine the distance from your primary seat to the TV and the speakers. Knowing that distance will determine how big your TV should be and how loud your speakers need to be able to play. The positioning will also give strong suggestions for what type of speakers you should use. And knowing which speakers you should use will determine what sort of amplification you need from your receiver!

See? It all works together and it all starts with your ROOM :)

You will also want to consider your acoustics. In places like a living room or a family room, most people do not want obvious room treatments (like those "egg crate" foam panels on the walls that you see in recording booths). But these days, there are many ways to "hide" your acoustic treatments by having them incorporated into furniture or decoration. Acoustic panels can even have images printed on them now, so they can literally replace artwork that you might have wanted on your walls anyway!

Why do you want acoustic treatments? Because, again, the room plays a huge role in determining the quality of sound that you experience. It isn't just the speakers or the amps. You could take the best speakers and amps in the world, but stick them in a bad acoustic environment and they're going to sound awful! Just imagine putting big speakers into a tile bathroom - not so great, huh? ;)

So again, focus on the room to start with. Get your seating planned out. That will tell you where all of your gear will need to be placed. And then focus on where you can put acoustic treatments so that you create the best environments for your home theaters.

NOW we get to some gear ;)

2) If you are not into gaming, then I have to suggest that you get the best televisions out there right now, which are Panasonic's plasmas. The absolute best TVs right now are Panasonic's VT30 series, but if you want a lower price, nothing beats the "bang-for-buck" performance and value of the ST30 Panasonic plasmas.

Yes, these are 3D capable displays, but that is beside the point. You obviously do not have to use 3D if you do not want to. It just so happens that the best 2D TVs are also 3D capable ;)

Right now, there isn't a single, current LCD or LED-LCD TV that I would recommend! If you can track down models from 1 or 2 years ago, then there are the Vizio XVT3 models and the LG LH90 models. Those were the last LCD TVs (they happen to both be local-dimming LED backlit LCDs) that were any good! ALL of the current LCD TVs have incredibly glossy screens, which look like freakin' mirrors and cannot be viewed with ANY lights on or - God forbid - a window. It's crazy, but your absolute best choice for a TV right now is a Panasonic plasma without question!

Best of all, in terms of price, Panasonic's ST30 plasmas are the same or less expensive than the best-looking LCDs right now - and the Panny plasmas LOOK better to boot! It's an easy choice right now. Get a Panny plasma ;)

3) For receivers, the easy go-to is Denon. But in terms of getting the most features for the lowest price, you'll want to look at Onkyo as well. You will find those dual HDMI outputs at a slightly lower price point with Onkyo. With Denon, you'll find dual HDMI outputs once you get to the AVR-3311CI or 3312CI. With Onkyo, it's the TX-NR709.

Have a careful look at the features and inputs/outputs offered by both Denon and Onkyo. My recommendation is going to be for one of those two brands, so visit their websites - denon.com and onkyousa.com - and have a look around for yourself ;)

4) Something you didn't mention is power protection. This is easy. Get yourself a battery backup UPS solution from APC. I most highly recommend the J-type series from APC. You get long 1 hour+ battery backup in the even that the power goes out. This is VITAL in my opinion. In particular for your front projector. Front projectors use a fan to keep the high-power lamp cool. If the power goes out, that fan cuts out and the lamo gets VERY hot very quickly. This will shorten the life of your lamp and, in some cases, can even cause it to crack or explode! Having a battery backup UPS in place keeps the power flowing and gives you ample time to shut down your projector properly.

You will also have your DVR from Verizon FIOS. To me, it is so annoying to have a recording interrupted by a power outage or a brown out. Having that J-type battery backup in place means that you can keep running your DVR while you wait for the power to come back on! If you turn off all of the other devices that are plugged into the J-type, you can run that DVR for over an hour on battery power. It's a wonderful thing to have and it's saved a headache and my in-progress recordings on more than one occassion for me :)


continued below...
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
...from above

5) You mentioned wanting Blu-ray and Network streaming access. You can certainly do this through a Blu-ray player. I prefer LG's Blu-ray players if you are not wanting to spend $500 on an Oppo. You will also get some streaming capabilities by default in your Denon or Onkyo receiver, but for things like Netflix, your most likely candidate is going to be your Blu-ray player and LG supports a lot of services. Your Panasonic plasma TV also supports several online services, so bottom line is that you will have several options by default.

That said, I'm personally a big, big fan of setting up a NAS (Networked Attached Storage) in your home. Synology is the brand you'll want to look at for a NAS and the DS411j is the perfect size and price for a home. Slap several 2 or 3 TB hard drives into a DS411j and you give yourself a central location for ALL of your digital files that you can access from any computer in any room via your home's wifi network!

Now, I'm a fan of simplicity. I'm a fan of having all of my content available through one device in one place. For my cable TV service, I'm willing to use my cable provider's multi-room solution (for me, it's Shaw Gateway up here in Canada). But for all of my movies, music and internet streaming content, I want a simple, single device.

6) Enter a Home Theater PC. I know, I know...HTPCs seem a bit scary. But if you don't want to get into the headache of building one yourself, check out a company called ASRock. You can find their products over at NewEgg.com. ASRock builds, small, quiet HTPCs. These are not super-fast, powerful computers, but for the basics of playing Blu-rays, DVDs and internet streaming content, they have the power to get that done and they do it quietly and efficiently.

With that Synology NAS in your home, you can put all of your music files and rip all of your Blu-rays and DVDs to that NAS - then use an ASRock HTPC in each room to play back those files off the NAS any time you want! Being a full-blown Windows7 PC, you can easily access ANY internet streaming content - no worries about licence deals with little set-top box companies like Roku or Boxee - no worries about weird, old Netflix interfaces on your Blu-ray player or janky access to Vudu or Hulu. Having a PC in your theater makes life easier and you never have to worry about a new service coming out that your home theater gear doesn't support.

ASRock's PCs come with IR control built in. You can easily "learn" the included remote's commands to your Harmony Remote. If you have an iPhone, iPod Touch or Android device, you can also get an App for a "Remote Mouse" so that you can use your iDevice or Android phone as a touchpad and small keyboard. Or you can just get a wireless keyboard and mouse for full PC control.

Trust me, having a full HTPC and a central NAS is a wonderful experience! Everything is available to you all the time! It's just great. And with a nice 802.11n wifi setup, you don't even need wires running all over your house! I use a dual-band (2.4 GHz and 5GHz) router from Asus in my home. I keep my HTPCs connected on one band and that leaves the second band open for surfing the internet or playing games on Xbox Live. I can be flinging HD video to multiple screens from my NAS while simultaneously surfing the web and playing Xbox Live with narry a hiccup! It's amazing, it's wonderful and once you experience it, you'll NEVER go back.

It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. If you have no interest in 3D, ASRock has some very affordable HTPC options.

7) Finally, we have speakers and subwoofers. I'm not going to make any recommendations at this point because we need the details of your rooms first. In somewhat difficult rooms with limited placement options, I tend to favor sealed speaker - preferably ones that offer some adjustments to compensate for placement near a wall or a less than ideal position. But there are rather few options with those kinds of capabilities at lower price points.

Emotiva's speakers are one such option, but they are also quite large and VERY plain looking. Still, you might want to take a look at them.

SVSound's S-02 series are good, affordable sealed speakers, but again, larger than you might think and very plain looking.

Axiom Audio is always worth consideration - especially if you want a specific look (they have virtually unlimited finish options). Axiom also has free-standing, on-wall, and in-wall versions of pretty much all of their speakers, so placement options are great with Axiom.

EMP Tek offers some really nice-looking speakers that sound better than their price-point would suggest.

Aperion also has a nice selection.

HSU's horn-loaded speakers are also surprisingly good.

And if you haven't picked up on the trend here, if you're looking for "bang-for-your-buck" in mid-priced speakers, the internet direct brands are where you're going to find the most options ;)



Anywho, I think I've given you enough to consider for now! Get yourself over to GiK Acoustics - gikacoustics.com - to start. They are the absolute best value in room treatments. Have a look at their many acoustic treatment options and start to think about what might work in your rooms.

Hope that helps!
 
T

tahoemark

Audiophyte
Thanks for all the feedback. I realize my post was a little disjointed. I understand and agree with everything you said. However, we have some limiting constraints on this job (my wife). Let me tell you about the rooms. The TV in the living room will be to the right side of the fireplace in a cabinet. To view TV it will be necessary to put it on a bracket to swivel about 45 degrees. This is necessary because an 18’ bank of south facing windows with major glare…and no window coverings will be approved. But that is ok with me for regular tv watching. The speakers present a real problem in this room. There is no access to wire anywhere besides the ceiling (due to exposed post and beam construction). Initially I figured I would use a sound bar (yeah I know but better than TV sound). The seating layout will be U shaped arrangement centered on the fireplace. The primary TV viewing will be at one corner of the U looking across the seating area on a 45 degree angle to the wall that houses the fireplace and TV. Viewing distance is 12-14 ft. Seating is out in the middle of the room. For speakers the only thing I can figure is small speakers strategically placed on the beams in the ceiling (I have wiring access from the attic above). The reason I didn’t start in with speakers is I wanted to actually sit in the room with furniture (don’t have that yet either) and get a sense for what will work. Also beamed ceiling is white so white speakers would be great, but I know that limits me to. Worse case scenario is sound bar or just front 3 speakers. Not ideal but may be what I’m stuck with. Room acoustics-lots of hard surfaces so very lively although room is open on one end to dining, kitchen, hallway and stair. Flooring is wood, but the seating area will have a large area rug and upholstered seating so that will help some. Thanks for the direction on speaker companies, looks like axiom should have something that could work.

Family Room, has similar problems although smaller room maybe 14’ wide 20’ deep with fireplace on short wall. TV in cabinet above fireplace (gas direct vent fireplace won’t generate much heat). Projection screen will be in front of this cabinet. Seating area is out in the middle about 12’ from TV (walkway and stair behind it). Same lively room with no underfloor access in very limited ceiling access. Projector will be mounted on back wall.

Neither of these rooms is remotely ideal, but sometimes you make sacrifices to get a great house in a great location.

TV’s well the Panasonic VT30’s may be beautiful, but more than I want to spend ST30 are more my price target, however they are 3D, which is a feature I’m not interested in so would you suggest one of their other lines? The LG and Vizio LCD models you mentioned are still out there.

Receivers, yeah Denon and Onkyo was what I was thinking, what about the Pioneer VSX-33 I can get that for under $600. Also in the living room I don’t need two hdmi out so what would you recommend?

Power protection… yeah I always do that will check out the ups from apc (I have that on my computers)

Blu-ray.. I’ll take a look at LG. HTPC, that did cross my mind. I do build my own computers so that might be something to look at down the road. Hadn’t thought about NAS but that sounds interesting.

My big problem with this house is it is virtually impossible to retrofit any wiring, due to the structure. I’m a contractor and even I have limited ideas with this place. Either it is all exposed beams and wood with no cavity behind or it is steel and glass with no cavity to work in. Oh well that’s my problem.

Thanks for all the input. I’m just starting research on this, but I know the wife will want a TV pronto so that is sort of on the top of the list.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
TV’s well the Panasonic VT30’s may be beautiful, but more than I want to spend ST30 are more my price target, however they are 3D, which is a feature I’m not interested in so would you suggest one of their other lines?
No, get the Panasonic. The fact it is 3D has nothing to do with anything. If you don't like that it has 3D, then don't use the 3D. It's really that simple. 3D is a 'feature' not a 'requirement' of usage. Kind of like high beams on your car... Just because your car has them, doesn't mean you MUST use them. You get to choose! Isn't that great?

Receivers, yeah Denon and Onkyo was what I was thinking, what about the Pioneer VSX-33 I can get that for under $600. Also in the living room I don’t need two hdmi out so what would you recommend?
You will get lots of happy people with lots of different product. I am not a fan of Onkyo/Integra because I think their product is poorly designed. To much bang for the buck and not enough time spent on research. You get a lot of product, and just hope it keeps working. I'm a bigger fan of Pioneer/Yamaha, and a strong supporter of Denon.

Blu-ray.. I’ll take a look at LG.
There is little LG makes that I trust. Panasonic makes some solid Blu-ray players for the money. Frequent firmware upgrades as necessary and reliable product at a very good price. I would strongly avoid Samsung players.
 
T

tahoemark

Audiophyte
Thanks guys,
Obviously I need to do some more research. Any suggestions for best information resources online?
 
T

tahoemark

Audiophyte
oops,
Hit the wrong button. Anyway, I've never used Onkyo and was a little concerned about there "too much bang for the buck". I have used Denon, Yamaha and Pioneer Elite and been satisfied with them. As these will be in cabinets heat is a concern. I will get some ventilation in there, but do any of the manufacturers tend to have hotter temperature products? I seem to recall someone saying Onkyo's ran hot. Never thought about firmware upgrades, but that certainly make sense to go with a company that does that as opposed to just coming out with a new model. Like I said time to do some more research. Any other comments feedback?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Onkyo's do run hot and you may NOT put electronics into a sealed cabinet. Like putting a garbage bag over your head and seeing how long you last in a typical work day. Just a normal day will kill you, let alone if you tried some serious work.

Woodworkers typically do a very poor job with venting cabinets, or even building A/V furniture. So, this would be a significant concern of mine.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hey, you're welcome :) This does seem like a challenging setup!

For the living room (non-projection room) TV, I'm going to go ahead and strongly recommend that you track down either an LG 55LH90 or a Vizio XVT553SV. With the 45 degree swivel arm and the large windows, a matte-screen local-dimming LED-LCD is absolutely going to be your best choice. The lighter weight of the LCDs vs. a plasma is going to be a benefit on that swivel arm. And even though Panasonic has really improved their reflection/glare reduction and black level retention with this year's models, plasmas still use glass and there is only so much that coatings and filters can do!

It's such a shame that there are no current LCD models that offer matte screens anymore :( But the LH90 and the XVT3 are both very good options. 55" is a little smaller than I would personally like for a 12-14 foot viewing distance. But then again, if you were going by SMPTE recommendations, at 12' you'd be looking at a 92" screen! So 55" is probably about as big as you can go in that swivel out location anyway :p

The LG LH90 offers more user picture adjustment options in its menus than the Vizio. As such, it's easier to dial in an accurate picture on the LG. But in a bright room, I doubt you'd notice the Vizio being slightly less accurate in color and grey scale. Plus, if you really want accuracy, the Vizio can still be nicely calibrated by a professional with ISF certification.

The LG has a HUGE border around the screen. I'm thinking that might be an issue with the cabinet and swivel placement. The LG also lacks any internet apps. So I'm thinking that the Vizio XVT553SV is probably going to be the better choice between the two for you :)

For speakers, I do think that Axiom is probably going to end up being your best choice in that room. You can certainly get their speakers in a white finish (with white grills, no less) for a very small upcharge. In a situation like yours where you will likely require less than ideal placement, I would recommend Axiom's M3v3 bookshelf speakers. The M3 are Axiom's most versatile speaker. They work well in almost any situation and they are available in a wide variety of mounting options including: regular bookshelf w/ an integrated mounting option for either a wall or ceiling mount (which Axiom also offers...and in white!), an on-wall version (although the mounting requires a flush mount on a flat wall surface), an in-wall version, and a cool in-wall/on-wall hybrid with a thin cabinet front and full backing box. There's even an outdoor version, which can also be easily mounted in almost any orientation.

If you're more or less forced to mount your speakers up in those ceiling rafters, I would recommend that you simply use M3v3 bookshelf speakers for all 5 or 7 channels. I'm not really a fan of Axiom's VP100 or VP150 center speakers. And Axiom's QS surround speakers work best with the intended side-wall, flush mount placement. M3s all around with Axiom's ceiling mount bracket would work best IMO and make your wiring job easier :)

Speaking of wiring, the best options I can think of are using flat, paintable wire, or just using those paintable "cable raceways". Neither will be invisible, but they'll be far less noticeable than just regular wire running all over the place :p Axiom offers some over-priced flat wire. But I think your best bet is going to be Parts Express for flat wire options.

In the projector room, I'm going to stand by the Panasonic ST30 recommendation. The 3D is entirely an option: the ST30 models don't even come with any 3D glasses included! Panasonic's plasmas really are the best 2D televisions available right now, so don't get hung up on the fact that they HAPPEN to offer 3D as an option. You absolutely do NOT have to watch anything in 3D if you don't want to!

With the ST30, you can get a nice 60" or 65" screen size for that 12' viewing distance of yours :)

For the projection screen, I think you'll want to strongly consider an acoustically transparent electric roll-down screen. That way, you can still position your center speaker directly below your Panny plasma and then have the screen drop down in front of the plasma and center speaker without blocking the sound!

For a very reasonably priced screen, I have to recommend Elite Screens and their CineTension2 with AcousticPro1080 screen material. You won't find a better price on a tensioned, electric screen with acoustically transparent fabric!

I'm not as harsh on Onkyo as a lot of people. I've owned two Onkyo receivers that have worked for me without issue. But they DO tend to run hotter than most other brands and if you open them up, you'll find that they do tend to use lower quality, lower priced parts. This is an understandable cost-cutting measure, given than Onkyo clearly aims to compete on price and features. So they're not the greatest, but then again, they manage to undercut their competion on price and still sound good!

But in your case, you'll probably want to stick with Denon. I personally prefer Denon, Marantz and Onkyo for the simple reason that they offer Audyssey brand room correction, which I've found to be superior to Pioneer's MCACC or Yamaha's YPAO. In your room, it's likely that you'll need significant room correction. I would urge you to look for MultEQ XT level room correction. MultEQ XT32 would be nice, but that is still only offered in the top-level, higher priced models, I'm afraid. MultEQ XT is very capable though and should be right in your price range.

Blu-ray players can also be a bit of a crap shoot. I recommended LG because they tend to offer the most internet apps and streaming options, plus their players are very fast to load and they are very competitive on price. All manufacturers have to deal with the frequent updates, some are quicker about pushing them out than others. It's one of the biggest reasons why I favor a HTPC. Install AnyDVD HD and not only can you rip Blu-rays to your hard drive and watch them that way, but you'll always get fast updates from SlySoft so that you can just remove the stupid "copy protection" and menu restrictions!

Anywho, something that hasn't been covered yet are subwoofers. I'm guessing your wife would probably prefer subwoofers that are somewhat smaller than a fridge :p Axiom's tiny EP400 is about as small as you can get while still digging down to 20Hz frequencies. The problem is that the little EP400 can only do it at rather quiet output levels, plus it's quite expensive! A better bet is probably going to be Rythmik, who offers some really nice, compact sealed subs. SVSound also offers some smaller, sealed subs now. The SB12-NSD is a great little performer in terms of output, extension and looks for the price.

Regardless of your subwoofer choice though, be sure to decouple it! I'm going to bet you'd love to be able to watch something in your theater without your wife being bothered by bass thumping away throughout the entire house! The reason bass seems to travel so much better than higher frequencies is because those long bass waves easily transfer into the physical structure of any building. They become structure-borne sound, rather than merely air-borne sound. When you subwoofer plays, it physically shakes. When it's sitting directly on the floor, the floor shakes too! The floor then shakes the walls, the walls shake the ceiling, and before you know it, you can hear that bass throughout the entire house and might even bother your neighbors.

Decoupling largely solves this common problem. I recommend Auralex' SubDude, GRAMMA and Great GRAMMA isolation risers. They're all the same thing, just different sizes. So get the one that fits your selected subwoofers. They'll be the best $50 you'll spend!

Finally, it seems as though your rooms are going to have acoustic issues for sure. So definitely check out GiK Acoustics to see if there is anything that will work - looks wise - in your room. Also check out acoustimac.com . They offer similar products at similar prices to GiK, but they have some more size and thickness options. Freestanding products like GiK's table and pedestal bass traps should also be high on your list. You mentioned that you still need to buy the furniture. I'm sure you need an end table or two! Why not make them a GiK bass trap table and get to "hide" your room treatments in the furniture budget ;)
 
T

tahoemark

Audiophyte
Thanks for the help. I seem to build a home theater about once every 5 years, needless to say technology changes a lot in that time. I remember the first one had a 3 tube projector that must have weighed 300lbs and probably put out a 480p picture!!!!
 
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