Future of Stand alone Receivers

B

booboo

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>To all,
It seems like only a matter of time before the HTPC and Stand-alone receivers will merge in their functions. &nbsp;Does anyone have knowledge as to whether this is happening, when it will happen, or any reason as to why it won't happen soon. &nbsp;I am holding off on purchasing a new receiver because I believe the current paradigm is a dinosaur; &nbsp;Aside from adding more speakers and surround sound not much has really changed over the last 20 years. &nbsp;Where are the ethernet connections, DVI, MP3, streaming video....? &nbsp;Thanks.</font>
 
R

RX-V2400

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Band-width is still the great divide. If you hang off on the reciever you might have a long wait.</font>
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
<font color='#000000'>I don't know. But if and when it does, I hope it doesn't run on Windows!

I mean, there you are, midway through the finale of Brahms' Second, swept away by the majesty of it all, and suddenly a voice says, &quot;This music has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down...&quot;</font>
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
<font color='#000000'>Rip, LOL
&nbsp;
, aint that the truth, Last night Microshafts OS X remote desktop client crashed my macs itunes and crashed my XP satellite gateway box. I only had to reboot the XP box however. I was listening to some classical LOL</font>
 
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austinbirdman

austinbirdman

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'>Check out this thread on standalone players and convergence on the Axiom forum. It doesn't yeild any answers, but as several of us pondered a similar but different question, we did some research and found some interesting examples of products that are out there already.

The long and short -- in my totally quasi-informed, speculative opinion -- is that within 12-18 months, we will see prices coming down and features going up on digital hard drive components (not receivers) that can be integrated nicely into the the standard audio-phile/hi-fi/mid-fi home theater and music setup, while allowing for high-bandwidth connections integrating to PCs or the Internet for those who want these kinds of things. This kind of unit -- similar to the Yamaha CD-player with hard drive that exists now and some DVD Recorders that are already out (see that Axiom thread for more detail) -- will have a CD/DVD/Universal format disk player that records to the biggest hard drives the market allows by then (160GB + with 500 and higher not too far off). You will be able to burn a full-sized copy of any current DVD, CD, DVD-A or SACD onto your massive hard drive, and while it may never be practical to archive too many movies (since their file size will grow eventually with HDDVD or whatever - Moore's Law), it will be practical and affordable to use the hard drive to archive 100-200 or maybe even 500 music CDs -- and we're talking full-sized, full quality CD files, not ripped and compressed .wmas or .mp3s. The unit will play all formats, since this is just a matter of codecs, and it will have heat sinks and other mechanical innovations that already exist (some being used in iPod-like portables) to allow for noiseless hard drive operation, satisfying at least mid-fi needs (and thus consumers) if not hi-fi audiophiles. (THey'll get the $2000 version that essentially does the same thing.) The unit will essentially be a super-duper Universal CD/DVD/DVD-A/SACD player with massive and perhaps upgradeable hard drives and the potential for linking to the Internet to download more movie and music files.

Some PC-lovers will not want to go the component route outlined above. They will set their digital systems up on their PCs via home networks, instead of choosing the component path (the component setup is known as a multimedia server), but I believe a component/server approach will win the day, since the component paradigm has held steady for higher quality audio since the advent of stereo. It's familiar. You don't need the &quot;server&quot; term attached -- it's a universal &quot;player.&quot; And it's a good way to upgrade. Most of the customers for this thing already have stereos or HTs anyway. Computer geeks will be more inclined to go with networked PCs, but hey, my dad (who drops a butt-load of cash on HT) can't use his iPod, so how is he going to network a PC?

I don't believe that receivers will become hard drives -- there are just too many functions going on in receivers already, and adding this will be a bit much. On the low end of the market, you'll surely see some all-in-one boxes with receivers, tuners and hard drives built in along with the uni-players, but these will no doubt have the same quality standards as today's all--in-one players -- meaning they will be bad spending moves marketed toward ignorant consumers who spend too much money on things they ultimately throwaway (do you detect some bias?).

This is just my .02. Personally, I can't wait for all this to happen. I'm even holding off on getting a new universal player because I think the convergence here is going to be swift, pushed ahead by the PC firms. Expect good hard drive-based uni players to be here sooner than we think, and at reasonable prices of say $300 or less.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't hesitate to get a new receiver, because the digitial convergence marketing engine will end up serving your receiver but threatening your CD player, CD changer, and standalone disk players. They will become the dinosaurs, not the receivers.

Birdman</font>
 
P

pam

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Hi

If I can give my 1 cents of understanding.

On a short run (2004-2005) the PC will be used more and more as an Audio-Video server. The numeric signals can be easily transported (even HDTV) via existing Power lines (see Supplier of Ethernet over Power lines) or via a full blown network (100 Mbs would allow to to serve many zones with full Audio-Video HD). This is a sure fact. For now, only Onkyo is offering Net-tune but Denon is probably getting ready. Anyway, if they don't deliver, someone else will supply the client/server hardware and they will loose market share. LG electronics is already having a full appartment built in their head office in Seoul using this technology (including a big plasma/LCD screen). Because of the inteference and their impact on bandwith, I don't see Wireless technology being a solution for server as there is many problemwith interferences (but Qualcomm found a solution for cellular phone leading to third generation phones).

On a longer run (before 2010), we can probably expect to have servers all concentrated on a PC (will it keep the same name) and to have only amplification and the speakers in the room where it is needed. You need to move your HT: you just move the TV and the speakers. To do so, you need a card that allow you to receive the cable/satellite signals, another card to do the Pre-Pro functions and a third card to do the communications.
According to Moore's law (you get twice as much for the same price every 18 months), you can expect to have 1 TeraByte disk by the end of 2005 for less than 300$. Each one can contain 50 HD films or 250 DVD-Audio or 1300 CD.

If you spend 1000$ (or more) to buy 50 HD-DVD, you might as well 300$ to put them on a hard disk and sell them back for 500$! I realize that this won't make the studio happy but people may end-up renting the HD-DVD and just recording them...

Of course, my name is Pierre-Andre, not Alvin Toffler, but my mother card comes with a 5.1 output integrated and it cost less than 100$.

Another way to see the convergence is to look at Dell, Gateway and Intel. They all go there (if only to get higher margin).</font>
 
B

booboo

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>In the short term, I think you are right Birdman. &nbsp;But I still predict that the desire for simplicity will eventually lead to the receiver being swallowed up by an all-in-one PC type device. &nbsp;In the meantime, I suppose I'll go ahead and buy that new receiver. &nbsp;Thanks for the great response.</font>
 
W

Wabbit_Swayer

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000F22'>Regarding the networking bit. &nbsp;I think there is chance that in the near future a/v will be routed through networks. &nbsp;My bro-in-law got back from a trip recently and did some work for a guy. &nbsp;This person so happened to be extremely wealthy and a hardcore music lover, and perhaps audiophile. &nbsp;But anyways, he was running 10, 10/100 netgear switches to route all the audio throught out the house. He had a transport that could be controlled anywhere in the house, and the audio signal was transfered through the switches. &nbsp;Well, they installed 2 new dell gigabit managed switches, to replace the other chaotic mess. &nbsp;Mind you these were all on racks, and while he was behind there, he got a peak at some of the amps for the primary listening room. &nbsp;7 4U or 6U, i cant remember, monoblock tube power amps. He didnt catch the name. While they were on standby, those things were still capable of posing as a george foreman grill.</font>
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you spend 1000$ (or more) to buy 50 HD-DVD, you might as well 300$ to put them on a hard disk and sell them back for 500$! I realize that this won't make the studio happy but people may end-up renting the HD-DVD and just recording them...
</td></tr></table>

...which is why someday, perhaps soon, owning plastic discs for music and movies will be as quaint a notion as wax cylinder recordings are now!

I think Apple's music store is the harbinger of that future -- once the bandwidth, legal, and business issues get sorted out you'll buy ( or 'licence'?) SACD/DVD-A quality music online to download onto a hard drive and/or memory card.

(And then the hardcore audiophools [who already think &quot;digital&quot; is an abonimation] will proclaim wax cylinders as the new ultimate in audio. No electronics in the signal path! $15k+ cylinder playback units with exquisitely balanced &quot;tonearms&quot; and that weigh a few hundred pounds...gotta do something about those horns, tho...)</font>
 
austinbirdman

austinbirdman

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">which is why someday, perhaps soon, owning plastic discs for music and movies will be as quaint a notion as wax cylinder recordings are now!
</td></tr></table>

No doubt, Rip, and yet, one is reminded of the predictions from 1997 that retail as we know it would soon be dead. Fact is Wal-Mart is now more powerful than ever. And neither shopping in stores nor reading in books will ever die out, despite all of the IT and bandwidth innovations that the future can throw at us. People like to hold texts and they love to get out of the house to shop. The ancillary activities around shopping and the physical aspects of reading (and owning books) have as much to do with their enduring popularity as the information and products we acquire.

The same, we will see, holds for music. The worst thing about copying CDs, for me, is that I never end up with a book on the CD (the cover ... my 3-year-old calls them &quot;books&quot;). So I don't get to look at Emmylou Harris or Lyle Lovett or Joao Gilberto or whomever ... don't get to browse their art and assimilate that with the music, or contemplate the hairstyles from 1987 as I look over an old Smiths release.

This aspect of the pleasure will never be replaced by digital, not even if we can upload biographical retrospectives on our plasma-screen tvs. We like books, images, things we can hold, and we like going through bazaars, shopping centers, and CD and record stores.

I believe we'll see more of everything -- more downloads, more cd-quality files, more Internet-delivered music files. But the old forms will remain and persist, like the deeper instincts behind them.

Birdman</font>
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
<font color='#000000'>Austin, Emmylou Harris or Lyle Lovett, sheeesh, who would want to look at either of them two
&nbsp; Talk about falling off the ugly tree. Now Diana Krall or Nora Jones are a little more pleasent to look at
</font>
 
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Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
<font color='#000000'>Bird, I hear you about the deeper feelings and ancillary activities we like so much with books and shopping, and I am always skeptical when a new technology is overhyped (as online shopping was) but I'm not sure they pertain as powefully to recorded music.

Much as I liked several aspects of vinyl LPs (the cover art, the liner notes, even the cleaning rituals) I would gladly replace all my old LPs with CDs if I could. The LP (or any sort of music recording medium) never acquired the cultural gravitas of books, which have been objects of reverence, heavy with connotations of wisdom, learning, and even magic, for centuries. Also, it's a great technology, nearly ideal for transmitting words. They're durable (especially if printed on rag paper), have an obsolescence-proof design, easily repairable by the user to a usable if not pristine state when slightly to moderately damaged (and still usable even if pretty seriously damaged). And all you need to use them is a light source, one good eye, and one good finger. One of the great achievements in human interface design! No sound recording medium to date can claim the same technological elegance. And e-books? Puh-LEEZE!

These days, I buy the vast majority of my music from Amazon and such. Shopping, while an enjoyable social activity, is best enjoyed when shopping for something that gives rich visual and tactile feedback, like clothes or (yes) books. Somehting you can &quot;kick the tires&quot; on. A CD in a jewel case doesn't do it. Yeah, you can audition them on headphones (a throwback to the early days of 78s!) but it doesn't compare.</font>
 
<font color='#000080'>I finally ordered a new motherboard for my HTPC so expect part 2 of my article to come out in March.

My opinion is that the receiver and HTPC will never merge, but the HTPC may replace your DVD/CD player (not to mention store your entire collection and perhaps replace your set top DVR or HD receiver once HD cards drop in price.)

I've been looking forward to this article for a while. I'm actually starting from a clean WindowsXP install and building up the software for the HTPC so stay tuned if you're into that.

I'll be sure to update the hardware as well so you can see what I changed... it looks sweeeeet.</font>
 
W

Wabbit_Swayer

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000F22'>Hawke, what mobo did you get?</font>
 
P

pam

Audioholic
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
pam : <font color='#000000'>to have sustained AV stream you need a Home Plug.</font>
<font color='#000000'>I should have said that he is presenting 170 Mbs HomePlug AV is Panasonic's proposition.</font>
 

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