Full Range rears, surround rears; 5.1, 7.1?

[MikeEckhardt]

Hi, sorry for the somwhat noob question (I looked at about 20 pages in here couldn't find an answer).
For starters, this is my current setup:

Denon AVR 3805
Denon DVD 3910
Klipsch L/R KG 3.5's
Klipsch Center KSC-C1
Klipsch Surrounds KSB-S1's
MK front sub
Yamaha Rear sub
Room is typical rectangular. 12' wide x 18' deep.

I have been building a nice collection of SACD's, DVD-A's, and a few DTS music discs for a while now. I originally set up my HT for movies since when I started, 5.1 audio only's were few and far between.
So my question is this, since I now listen to 5.1 multichannel music far more then movies (about 95/5), would it be beneficial sound wise to use full range towers like my fronts, for my rears?
My thought was to buy another pair of Klipsch towers for the rears, and I could move my surrounds to the sides and use them for 7.1, correct? That being said, would that allow me to listen to 5.1 multichannel discs with the full range rears without hearing any sounds in the sides? And then the few movies that would utliize the additional two side channels? Or am I wasting my money? It seems to me that SACD's like Dark Side of the Moon, where the intention is to put you in the center of the music, it would sound better to have full range rear's instead of little bookshelf style surrounds that are intended for effects?
Hopefully I explained well enough...
Opinions are welcome!

Thanks so much!

Mike

 

[j_garcia]

IMO, you will still want a sub with multichannel music, so you aren't going to be running most of the channels large, so no, I don't think that towers out back is necessarily the ideal situation, but it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing. The type of bass management (how flexible) available to you in the 3805 is a factor though - if it allows a large degree of flexibility in setting your crossover point(s), then towers might be a good thing (still using the sub though).

The hirez formats are all still 5.1 at this point, so you won't ever hear anything from the side surrounds with them, so you are correct there.

I use 5 identical bookshelf speakers and I am still at the center of the music...

 

[MikeEckhardt]

Thanks for your reply.
I wasn't planning on disabling the subs... just more then anything want to know if multichannel music sounds better with full range backs as opposed to surround backs. I'm assuming I am correct in saying that but want opinions and experiences from folks!

mike

 

[ScottMayo]

I have full-range speakers on mains and surrounds, and wide range speakers on center and back. And a sub. I like the effect on both movies and music, and if you've got the space, I recommend it.

 

[W_Harding]

5.1 music

It is good to know of others who enjoy 5.1 music. Big or small, matching the character of the front and surrounds is a good idea. The best way to do that is to use identical speakers. When the sound is panned from front to surround or surround to front the sound character does not change if the speakers are identical. The components you have are good. Buying matching surrounds to match fronts seems like a worthwhile upgrade.

 

[MikeEckhardt]

Thanks to both Scottmayo and W_harding for your posts! I think that is the opinions I am looking for... so it's time to go speaker shopping!

Thanks again!

Mike

 

[PHYSTRAINER]

I have towers for my rears too,they are slightly smaller than my fronts but match perfectly spec wise, and i really like the effect they create compared to my bookshelves. I have the space and now i can use the bookshelves for 7.1too...ooh how great that justification feels!
Enjoy the shopping.

 

[tomd51]

A consideration..

Thanks to both Scottmayo and W_harding for your posts! I think that is the opinions I am looking for... so it's time to go speaker shopping!

Thanks again!

Mike

So Mike, you basically just wanted someone to agree with you? Nothing wrong with that, sometimes you just want a little reassurance.. Honestly though, if you have the room, the same speakers used for mains, center and surrounds are ideal for multichannel listening, however it isn't a necessity.

Although you probably don't want to hear this, a good portion of Klipsch offerings are great for home theater use and their sensitivity is exceptional taking little power to drive them, but can tend to lack a bit on musical reproduction for a variety of reasons.

If you're much more into critical multichannel listening than you used to be as you've indicated in your original post, you may want to consider trying another speaker brand that focuses more on the musical reproduction side than the HT side. This isn't to say you should ditch your Klipschs, I'm just suggesting that you may find some other speaker manufacturer's offerings more pleasing in this environment. I can suggest some for comparison, I'm sure several others here would be happy to as well. Please don't think I'm dogging Klipsch, they make a very good product for a reasonable price. I'd just like you to consider other options as your listening habits have changed.

Just my 2¢... -TD

 

[BobbyT]

I too have Klipsch speakers and towers for the rears. RF7s, RC7, RS7s, and RF3-IIs for rears. If you have the space then put in the towers.

Klipsch are just as good at reproducing music as any other given manufacturer. It's all subjective. What one person thinks makes a good speaker another person doesn't. If someone is happy with thier speakers then people shouldn't try to tell them not to be.

 

[nibhaz]

I too have Klipsch speakers and towers for the rears. RF7s, RC7, RS7s, and RF3-IIs for rears. If you have the space then put in the towers.

Klipsch are just as good at reproducing music as any other given manufacturer. It's all subjective. What one person thinks makes a good speaker another person doesn't. If someone is happy with thier speakers then people shouldn't try to tell them not to be.

Simmer down now! Knee jerk posts such as yours suggest insecurity

In reality tomd51’s is the type of post that would make the forums a better place if there were more like his. MikeEckhardt give tom’s post some serious thought.

 

[tomd51]

I too have Klipsch speakers and towers for the rears. RF7s, RC7, RS7s, and RF3-IIs for rears. If you have the space then put in the towers.

Klipsch are just as good at reproducing music as any other given manufacturer. It's all subjective. What one person thinks makes a good speaker another person doesn't. If someone is happy with thier speakers then people shouldn't try to tell them not to be.

I was a little concerned my posting would come across as me being a Klipsch basher. On the contrary, I think they offer a wide range of solid offerings from bookshelves to towers to some of their subs and are a good value.

Nevertheless, it certainly wouldn't hurt Mike to check other speaker mfgrs out in his setup. If anything, it may validate that his choice on his current Klipschs are right on the money. As listening habits change, your tastes in speakers can as well. I'm not coming down on Mike's Klipschs or any others for that matter, let me just clear up that notion... -TD

 

[MikeEckhardt]

Thanks again for the replies! To touch lite on the last couple of posts, I really do like the sound of the Klipsch speakers. Also, when I purchased them in '97, my original intentions were strictly movies. Tomd51 makes some very good points. So before I go shopping, I am willing to hear (no pun intended) from you on your suggestions Tom (is it?).
For starters Tomd51, I would want to replace my two front towers. That was my original thought even if I go with Klipsch. I know the two I have now are NLA, so I couldn't match them to the rear perfectly anyhow.
I know I have the nice Denon stuff now and I'm sure there are some real fancy speakers that cost a fortune out there... and sometimes you get what you pay for. But I have to consider being budget minded because.. and the most important (1), the wife factor, lol, and (2), I paid I think in the neighborhood of $250 each for all of my speakers.
That being said, lets think of my budget around the same per speaker. It doesn't mean I'm not open to suggestion for spending a bit more for something that completely kicks ***, but lets not go crazy!
As far as the fronts, it is also critical that they don't exceed 35"Hx12"WxDepth isn't critical.

Also to Tomd51, as far as having someone agree with me, you are correct in that as far as going with tower for the backs! As far as sticking with Klipsch, well as you can tell by now, I am open to opinions. Your post grabbed my attention!

Thanks,

Mike

 

[MikeEckhardt]

If it helps to, I love classic rock music. Also have a lot of concerts on DVD that I enjoy. Love drums and basslines too! Anything to help reproduce the sounds the engineer intended you to hear!

mike

 

[tomd51]

Options, options...

Glad to see you're willing to explore other options, Mike (and yes, it's Tom ).

Taking into account (roughly) your size constraints and price considerations, I've compiled a list of mains and bookshelves for options. Where possible, I've added links for additional info or pricing. Keep in mind, you can typically get better pricing talking directly w/a local dealer for some of the non-internet related brands:

Tower Speakers
PSB Image T45, T55
Mordaunt Short Avant 906
BostonAcoustics VR1, VR2
Axiom M50
Swans SW4.1
Klipsch RF-3
Athena Technolgies ASF2.2
Engergy C-5
Infinity Beta 40, Primus 360, Interlude IL30, IL40 or IL50 (perform Google search for each of these discontinued models)

Bookshelf/Stand Mount Speakers
Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE, CBM-170 SE
Axiom M22, M3, W3
Mordaunt Short MS912, AVANT 902
Onix Rocket RS250 MKII
Boston Acoustics VRB
Onix x-ls

As I mentioned, you should be able to reduce the pricing on some of these for ones you can find in local dealer locations. As for some of the models, they are older and discontinued, but for these particular models I've had either very good experience with or have heard great feedback on and they represent a great value considering price for performance. If you're not opposed to buying used or refurbished, I would highly recommend it. You can find some of the best deals on refurbed or used speakers as a couple of years can really knock down the price on them whereas the technology hasn't changed drastically.

I know you were only considering towers, but there are advantages to using bookshelf or on-wall speakers at times without losing a great deal of quality in the soundstage. Hopefully others can contribute with their suggestions as I've developed I nice case of writer's/typer's cramp from compiling that list... -TD

 

[BobbyT]

Simmer down now! Knee jerk posts such as yours suggest insecurity

In reality tomd51’s is the type of post that would make the forums a better place if there were more like his. MikeEckhardt give tom’s post some serious thought.

I have no need to simmer down, as I'm not mad. And I don't consider it a knee jerk post. Even the original poster feared his post would come across wrong. I agree that it's a good idea to listen to other speakers and find out if there is something better to one's ears. I did that myself before upgrading my RF3s to RF7s to make sure I didn't find something I liked better. But to say Klipsch isn't good for music reproduction I don't agree with, which is why I posted. And I pointed out that it is all subjective.

I'm not insecure either. I built my system for me. If no one else likes it that's fine. It won't bother me a bit. It's my system. Me and my family like it.

A personal attacking post such as yours is not helpful to anyone. Tomd51s post was on the right track but worded unfairly to one speaker manufacturer.

 

[tomd51]

Is it time for a little Kumbaya?

BobbyT;
Nibhaz didn't say you were insecure, he said "posts such as yours suggest insecurity". And, if you read my initial posting again, nowhere do you see that I stated "Klipsch isn't good for music reproduction". What I did write was that a good portion of Klipsch offerings "tend to lack a bit on musical reproduction for a variety of reasons", nowhere did I say they suck, they blow or any other baseless derogatory terms. In fact, contrary to this, I even suggested a newer version of a Klipsch tower that falls within the criteria that Mike provided, so I'm really not sure where you're reading into my posting that all the speaker offerings by Klipsch are unfairly worded. My subjective thoughts on most of Klipsch's offerings are just that, take them for what they're worth...

You are absolutely correct in stating that speaker preference is subjective, one man's trash can easily be one man's treasure when it comes to listening preferences. And for the record, I'm not saying your speakers,speaker manufacturer or any other is trash!!

Your approach to building your system is exactly what you should be doing. As you're the one shelling out the dough and likely the one that's going to listen to it the most, you should get exactly what you want with whatever money you can spend.

I don't think Nibhaz's intent was any sort of "personal attack", on the contrary, I think he/she would rather the original poster (Mike) consider as many options as they can, keep an open mind if speaker purchases are in his future and fortunately, from Mike's last post, it looks like he is willing to do just that, which was the intent of my original post.

Let's get back on track and try to help Mike... -TD

 

[gene]

So my question is this, since I now listen to 5.1 multichannel music far more then movies (about 95/5), would it be beneficial sound wise to use full range towers like my fronts, for my rears?
My thought was to buy another pair of Klipsch towers for the rears, and I could move my surrounds to the sides and use them for 7.1, correct? That being said, would that allow me to listen to 5.1 multichannel discs with the full range rears without hearing any sounds in the sides? And then the few movies that would utliize the additional two side channels? Or am I wasting my money?

I would advise against using full range towers for rear speakers. You want the surround channels to be more diffuse and to envelop the listener NOT act like a point source with speakers sitting at ear level usually too close to the listener. Using multiple side/back speakers like a 7.1 configuration allows for a wider listening area. The money you save on towers can be put towards room treatment or setting up a multi subwoofer bass managed system. This will yield more uniform bass distribution in your room and accommodate a wider listening area.

Suggested Reading: Surround Panel Discussion

 

[tomd51]

Yeah, what he said..

I would advise against using full range towers for rear speakers. You want the surround channels to be more diffuse and to envelop the listener NOT act like a point source with speakers sitting at ear level usually too close to the listener. Using multiple side/back speakers like a 7.1 configuration allows for a wider listening area.

Unless the listening environment is fairly large (3,000+ cu. ft.), I'd have to agree w/Gene on this (I hate it when Dad's right ).

Now if the listening environment is rather large, I think with full range or close to full range towers, they may have ample room to open up and provide you with an enveloping rear sound stage that bookshelfs or multipole surrounds may not be able to offer.

The money you save on towers can be put towards room treatment or setting up a multi subwoofer bass managed system. This will yield more uniform bass distribution in your room and accommodate a wider listening area.

Again, very good advice. Very few people consider this or even suggest this early on (I'm guilty of this ) while it can have one of the biggest impacts on your listening environment. Aren't you tired of being right all the time, Gene? -TD

 

[gene]

Now if the listening environment is rather large, I think with full range or close to full range towers, they may have ample room to open up and provide you with an enveloping rear sound stage that bookshelfs or multipole surrounds may not be able to offer.

Satellite speakers need not be dynamically limited. Take for example the RBH Signature T1 system which can handle 500 watts continuously and has a bigger soundstage than any conventional 3 way tower I have heard.

Personally I prefer a more diffusive side sound field from a bipole/dipole type speaker and direct radiators spaced out about 6-8 feet behind me for the back channels assuming you aren't sitting in a chair smack up against the backwall. If you are transmitting DVD-A/SACD via HDMI, i.Link or D.Link, you owe it to yourself to engage PLiix Music Mode. Simply awesome if your speaker system is set up right!

Aren't you tired of being right all the time, Gene? -TD

No, b/c I am wrong more often than not in the eyes of my wife so I have to make up for it here

 

[MikeEckhardt]

I would advise against using full range towers for rear speakers. You want the surround channels to be more diffuse and to envelop the listener NOT act like a point source with speakers sitting at ear level usually too close to the listener. Using multiple side/back speakers like a 7.1 configuration allows for a wider listening area. The money you save on towers can be put towards room treatment or setting up a multi subwoofer bass managed system. This will yield more uniform bass distribution in your room and accommodate a wider listening area.

Suggested Reading: Surround Panel Discussion

Thanks for the link Gene, I will read it after I type a few posts here. Also Gene, assuming you read my original post, does your position stand the same for multichannel music? I just want to make sure you weren't thinking that this is just a movie setup.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed that you'd want full range speakers all around (except center) for multichannel music, since if you think about it, the sound engineers could put any instrument at any speaker point, at the same volume levels as the fronts for example. Seems to me then that surround speakers would be limited?

Tom, thanks so much for taking the time to read and learn about the different speakers! It will take me some time to read and digest it all, and eventually come to a decision on what I want to do.

Also, for what its worth, if I used rear towers, they could stand on the floor as the fronts are. My couch would be just a few feet back from center.

I must of forgot to mention that I have two subs already! One in the front, one in the rear!

Mike