FNG old fella upgrading 5.1 system, opinions welcome

[KenM10759]

New here posting, but been reading plenty the last few weeks. Seems a very genteel group.

History is that when my kids were young, around 1988 I'd bought a pair of Hafler 200 bookshelf speakers, a Harman Kardon HK440 receiver, Dual CS503 turntable, NAD 5300 cassette deck and Onkyo CD player. Never upgraded until a couple years ago when I added a pair of Infinity SS1000 speakers as rear, and my younger (of 2) son substituted the HK440 for a Sony receiver. Same for the CD player that had crapped out, and the turntable was beyond repair.

As of right now, I had bought a Denon AVR1912 receiver @ BB on a lark around Dec 2013. My son's Sony CD changer isn't reliable so I play most audio CD's on the Sony BDP-S480 BlueRay player. For Christmas last year I had started making noise about the speakers, my son gifted me a pair of KEF Q10's that are used as rears, and he's loaned me a Polk center and 8" sub. The Haflers still sound remarkably good, though I long for broader range and more effectiveness at low to medium volumes.

My budget will soon allow a somewhat nice upgrade, as I want to get back to listening to music (in 2 chan stereo) while still allowing an easy switch to watching movies (no gaming) in simple 5.1 surround. The room is relatively small at 13' x 19' and the left rear side (as looking at the TV screen) is open by 13' to the 12' deep dining area. So yes, an odd shape.

I gravitate toward KEF R300 for the front, R200C for center, Velodyne Impact 12 sub. Budget may allow for R300's for rears. I like the specs for and idea of getting a factory refurbished Denon AVR-X4100W for possible future upgrade (Atmos), though that may not happen in this space. The TV will likely be upgraded from a tired Toshiba 42" LCD to a 47-50 (max that will fit) Samsung 4K.

What would I need to add to be able to reintroduce vinyl (a turntable) to this system? Is this coming across as a reasonable system for a guy who expects to soon be an "empty nester", uses the system for 75% 2.1 music, 25% movie/TV and 0% gaming?

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Not sure what FNG is, but I’d say you have a pretty fine system there, Ken.

As far as vinyl, I assume you’re wondering how to connect it to the receiver. If the receiver doesn’t have a phono input you’ll need an outboard phono pre-amp if you’re using a vintage 'table. I’m not totally up on the subject, but I believe you can get turntables these days that have the pre-amp built in, so you can connect them to any line input.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[KenM10759]

FNG....LOL

Fun New Guy....except its really a different first word. Maybe too much time working in machines shops for me.

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.

 

[shadyJ]

You can't go wrong with KEF Reference speakers, very nice. I think you could do with a better subwoofer though. What is your budget for a sub? I think you will want a phono pre-amp for the turntable, the Denon 1912 doesn't look to have that at a brief glance. The AVR 4100 looks like it has a ground for the phono stage. It might have a phono pre-amp in it, you'll have to go through the manual, which is online.

 

[KenM10759]

These aren't KEF Reference series, they are the one-step-down R300. Budget for sub is part of the overall system budget, which I'd like to keep under $4K.

I can get the R300's for as low as $1400 for one pair (shipped), and the AVR-X4100 for about $750. The center speaker is a little under $800. So I guess I can allocate up to $1K for a sub, though I don't know if my ears can really discern enough difference in low frequency emissions (35-100Hz) to justify that much. I'd rather be saving toward a second pair of R300's for rears, and perhaps a "serviceable" turntable.

Subwoofers seem to have such a broad range of power and pricing, without a commensurate range of sound quality. Tough decisions, and I expect to be throwing a little more money at it in the spring. Thoughts on Velodyne subs?

 

[shadyJ]

Velodyne subs aren't bad at all, they are just not a class leader for their MSRP. If I had $1k for a sub, I would be looking at the 15" subs from Hsu, Rythmik, and Reaction Audio. Any of those will be a huge step up from the Velodyne you are looking at.

 

[KenM10759]

Well, I prefer a clean, tight bass that's true to the original music and not over emphasized. I know my son had bought an Hsu and wasn't happy that he had to return it because it came in with a faulty amp. I definitely want one that is a good match, power and size, for the other speakers. That's important to me and why I thought a 12" was about right and many fit in the space currently occupied by the Polk. That's only a 100w amp (and I think 7-1/2" driver) yet seems to do OK. Maybe even 12" is more than I need, but I would like a little lower end for some stuff. The Velodyne appealed to me as much for nostalgia as anything else, they were the only game in (my) town when I first bought in 1988 from a local dealer and sounded great.

The Rythmic servo driven ones look interesting.

 

[herbu]

I prefer a clean, tight bass that's true to the original music... a 100w amp (and I think 7-1/2" driver) yet seems to do OK.

Consider this... If most of your driving was on the interstate at 65mph, would you buy a car whose top speed was 70mph? The car would do what you want, but it would be running near max capability most of the time. Same for a sub.

Many, (most), people here are fiercely compassionate about accurate bass for music. Fortunately, subs in your price range, ~$1k, can do that AND provide capable performance for action movies. These subs accurately reproduce bass without straining. 100w and 7-1/2" is not enough. Rythmik, SVS and HSU can all do what you want admirably. And customer service is very good for them all. Don't be put off by your son's HSU amp. It was a fluke.

 

[KenM10759]

Good analogy. I've looked and the Rythmik line and like what I see. My issue will be a combination of placement and the available floor space where it must go. I'm attracted to a vented sub, but suppose I'd like to hear some units and that's so difficult with brands that aren't sold retail in the local brick & mortar stores.

As for Hsu, it seemed they were a little slow in refunding but otherwise accepted his decision to just get something else.

All things considered the single pair of R300's, R200C, a sub and a TV will chew up the budget pretty good so I'll probably wait until spring '16 to swap out the rear surrounds and the AV receiver. Those two incumbent pieces are the newer I have and will be serviceable for now.

The turntable/vinyl issue should be solvable for short money in just getting a phono amp to be able to feed into the AVR though the open inputs for other devices not in use (game ports.) My existing vinyl collection is not in such good condition to merit a high-end turntable so my dormant Ortofon and Audio Technica cartridges can continue to await redemption if I ever start buying new platters. Low priority on that, given the AV-centric receiver.

 

[herbu]

I'd like to hear some units and that's so difficult with brands that aren't sold retail in the local brick & mortar stores.

Right... and that's a common concern. This is where patience and research are your friends. This is what I've learned...

Scour reputable audio forums like this one. Read about the Internet Direct brands. For subs, you will discover the 3 brands mentioned above are consistently touted as good/great. You will see some people say, "I prefer this one over that one", but you will rarely/never see anyone say, "That brand is lousy". That is the tip off for me. If a speaker/brand is truly lousy, there will be no shortage of people saying so.

Though it can be a pain in the arse for speakers/subs, most ID companies have a trial period within which you can return the product if you don't like them. However, if you stick within the top brands, I don't think you have to worry about it. You will likely be pleased with any one you pick. More true for subs than speakers as the lowest frequencies are less susceptible to subtle coloration, (in my opinion).

After buying several speakers and subs I heard in local big box stores, ALL of my 7 speakers and 2 subs are now ID brands, and I couldn't be happier... except for the room full of speakers & subs I no longer use.

One last thing. I encourage you to use the phone. Call the ID company and talk to them about what you have and what you want. They will be MOST helpful guiding you to the right product in their line for your needs.

My granddad used to say the best food recipes were the ones on a product's label. The company wants you to buy their product. They know if they give you a bad recipe using their product, you likely won't use the recipe or their product again. ID companies know their disadvantage is that you can't walk into a store and hear them. Their reputation and success depend completely on satisfied customers. In my experience, they will be most helpful and honest in their advice.

 

[KenM10759]

Thanks for the input, confirms my thought process and exactly why I'm here and had posted this.

The lack of B&M outlets is largely our own doing in the age of the interweb. The demise of B&M is often blamed upon the perceived increased prices and those are exacerbated by manufacturers who blithely undercut their best distributors by selling on-line for less than list price as the total "information age" bloomed. I'm in a business that dictates we sell only through local distributors and direct only to the absolute largest volume customers. Those comprise less than 5% of the total sales volume. In this way we have 10x or more sales force out there. I provide "factory support" to those distributors and end users.

The current situation of few B&M outlets is where we will always be however, because it just makes business sense now. In days of old, a manufacturer of any given product would work to build a network of distribution and then depend upon it for their revenue stream. As they got even larger, they would add a "regional distribution center" to stock product and feed a given range of resellers.

Now the business model has shifted to single or ay most large-zone distribution centers, often contract houses that specialize in putting an automated pick and pack system within stone's throw of major shippers (UPS, FedEx, etc.)

Some exceptions are food, energy, cars (still) and oddly...mobile phones. Margins on those being larger the suppliers can utilize B&M locations and actual sales people effectively, as that's a product people still like to handle before deciding. What kills them all eventually and reduces the numbers of actual stores is the "go try it on there, then go home and buy it on the internet."

Back to subwoofer choices, I'm strongly leaning toward the SVS SB-2000 because it seems to suit my needs and has the "small enough" physical size to fit in my limited space. I'd show you a photo of the current installed system if I could find the rules here about posting photos. I generally use Photobucket links for my photos on other forums but can't figure out how the powers that be want it done here.