First post; could really use good advice

[David86]

I recently purchased my first ever amplifier (low budget, but reviews seem to be really good), the topping tp32 (link: Topping TP32 Class T Digital Amp with USB and Remote 15WPC 310-316).

I matched these to Onkyo D045 speakers I had lying around but never used before (since I did not have an amplifier to run them . (link: http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/product_info/pdf/cs-545_eu_leaflet.pdf)

I think treble and vocals sound really really good, but electronic music (esp. progressive house and electro house) sound really harsh, sometimes even just 'noisy'. This really bothers me since the difference in sound quality between different genres is like night and day.

So what I'm really asking is if anyone here has an idea where the problem is situated so I could replace something; is it the amp that is just too low power or the speakers impedance (4Ω) that is too low?

I've read something about speaker impedance dropping lower than the specified value, and that causing problems. So I thought buying an 8Ω speaker might solve it, but I would like to know for sure before I sink any more money into this. I was looking at both Polk Audio RTiA1 and Dayton Audio B652 (only 6Ω, but also getting stellar reviews). Could anyone give some feedback if these are good choices/ which one is best? I realise the Polk is way more powerful than my simple amp can handle, but I like the idea that I could possibly one day upgrade my amp and keep the speakers. Would this cause problems for either amp or speakers? (I heard it's better to get more powerful speakers than your amp, but at other times people say it's easier to ruin your speakers with an amp not powerful enough, so actually I don't have a clue about this.)

Sorry for the rant, just wanted to provide the full story.
I hope somebody can help out,
but thanks in advance!

David

 

[ImcLoud]

Welcome to the forum,

I love topping amps, and own a few, they are great for what they do... But they are low powered although for most efficient speakers they will do fine... What is your source and how are you connecting? If all of that is good..

Here is what I suggest before you replace your speakers...
install a set of these on the amplifier Amazon.com: FMOD Crossover Pair 100 Hz High Pass: Car Electronics
then add a rca splitter and subwoofer Amazon.com: Pioneer SW-8MK2 Andrew Jones Designed 100-Watt Powered Subwoofer: Electronics there are tons available for under $150 Amazon.com: MartinLogan Dynamo 300 Home Theater and Stereo Subwoofer: Electronics or Amazon.com: Dayton Audio SUB-800 8" 80 Watt Powered Subwoofer: Electronics or polk makes a couple, and there are just tons of them...

I think this will be a good starting point for a budget system, if you are interested in going this route let us know we can help you narrow down the sub choices... Fmods will allow you toppings 30w to be used to just the mids and highs, and the power consuming lows will be handled by the powered subwoofer, this will give you A- much better mids and highs and B Much deeper, louder, cleaner lows... All around benefits will be very noticable, and you can accomplish it for under $200, or as low as $125 or so...


Then after you get a sub if you want to get better bookshelfs you can but adding them to the system with a sub is going to be much better and you will notice a much better sound...

 

[fuzz092888]

The harshness is a product of what I suspect to be pretty poor speakers but could also definitely a product of the music as well (not necessarily the type, but other factors). Are these CD's, streaming, downloaded? What artists are you listening to as well? It could be poor recording quality, poor playback quality, poor speakers, or some combination. I think a speaker upgrade would help and if that's the type of music you're listening to I'd point you towards more of a monitor type speaker like the KRK Rokits, the Emotiva Airmotivs, or something in that vein, not that the pioneer speakers are bad at all.

Speakers are not "more powerful" than an amplifier. Speakers have a maximum power handling, and sometimes a minimum power recommendation, but any well designed amplifier should be able to handle a speaker that is more or less true to its impedance rating. With the smaller amps like the Topping you should only have an issue if the speakers you're using them with are inefficient and you like to turn it up or the speakers have areas in their operating range where the impedance drops off well below it's rating.

 

[markw]

Assuming the amp provides enough power to adequately drive the speakers to your preferred listening level, the two most important factor in how the music sounds are source firmware and the speakers.

Since your speakers sound decent on most stuff, I'd suspect the recordings but, looking at that leaflet you provided, those speakers, with a sensitivy rating of 85 decibles, are incredibly inefficient*, which means they need quite a bit of power to play loud and clean. With that amp on;y being speced for 15 watts at 10% distortion (or 9 clean watts), that could definitely be a problem as well.

Specifications: • Power output: 15W x 2 (4 ohms, 10% THD), 9W x 2 (4 ohms, 0.03% THD), 10W x 2 (8 ohms, 10% THD), 6W x 2 (8 ohms, 0.1% THD) • Headphone power output: 60mW x 2 (16 ohms, 1% THD), 120mW x 2 (1% THD), 100mW x 2 (32 ohms, 0.01% THD) • DAC THD+N: 0.008% @ 1 kHz • Signal-to-noise ratio: 98 dB • Dynamic range: 98 dB • Dimensions: 4.17" W x 1.65" H x 7.1" D.

Either find incredibly efficient speakers (98+ decibles sensitivity/efficiency rating) or get a more powerful amp. I'd recommend the latter.

* Most decent small speakers are.

 

[David86]

Thank you very much.

These all seem very nice suggestions, and I was definitely considering of adding a sub over time, but right now I just want to get rid of that edgy sound to the electronic music, it is really ruining the experience. However, it is not the bass that bothers me. Of course the bass is not powerful at all because there is no sub, but it doesn't strike me as out of place or anything. Maybe I went wrong in saying treble sounds good, because where things go wrong is in pretty high-pitched sounds. I meant to say soprano vocals sound really good.

Like you and other posters mention it is very important to match topping amps with efficient speakers, and clearly these Onkyo's are not. So I would really prefer to get new speakers first and add a sub at a later time.

What are your thoughts on these?
Dayton B652: Dayton Audio B652 6-1/2" 2-Way Bookshelf Speaker Pair 300-652
Polk RTiA1: RTiA1 - Bookshelf | Polk Audio®
Do you think I would damage either the Polk or the Topping by matching those together or is that a good setup?

Thanks in advance,
David

 

[ImcLoud]

Where is your budget for new speakers?

I tend to think for stand alone music, the AJ pioneer bookshelfs are the starting point and them are around $100.. Not that they are super efficient {which is hard to do with bookshelfs} but they are a good balanced sounding speaker that performs past its price point..

 

[David86]

These are mostly high quality (320kbps) downloaded mp3's, although some are lesser quality. On music, I'm a pretty varied listener, I mostly listen to pop, hiphop, soul, various electronic styles (dance, house, trance), rock, RnB, dancehall, reggae fusion and the occasional 'oldies'. Even though electronic music is big chunk of my listening, I don't feel like I need speakers specifically for this genre. I am really getting sold on the idea of buying the Polk.

What are your ideas on these speakers?
Dayton B652: Parts Express RTiA1: RTiA1 - Bookshelf | Polk Audio®
Polk RTiA1: RTiA1 - Bookshelf | Polk Audio®
Do you think the Dayton is better considering it's like 40$ or something? Or do you think any other speaker would be even better?

Thanks in advance,
David

 

[markw]

I guess those power specs on your amp didn't register...

 

[David86]

@markw:

Thank you for the reply. That was what I was thinking! Do you think any of these speakers would be more efficient?
Dayton B652: Dayton Audio B652 6-1/2" 2-Way Bookshelf Speaker Pair 300-652
Polk RTiA1: RTiA1 - Bookshelf | Polk Audio®
How can I tell if these speakers are efficient or not? Would these match well with my topping tp32? Which one of these 2 would be best? Which one do you think could be even better in about the same price range? (200$)

Thank you.

 

[David86]

@ImcLoud:

Budget is around 200$, but I guess I can go higher up to around 300$ if the tradeoff is substantial enough. I would really want to prevent getting another set of speakers to then have to concludes it barely sounds better than my first set. So how can you tell from a specsheet how efficient speakers are, if that is what matters for my topping?

 

[ImcLoud]

What you have to keep in mind is you are only powering the speaker with 15watts, so I guess I have to ask how far are you turning the volume knob? Are you going all the way up, I own the same amps and I use fmods with them, normally between 70-100hz... dynamic headroom helps clean up the sound... You harsh highs can be from placement too did you try moving them around? Cutting out the lows leaves more power for the mids and highs... Hence the fmod cross over recommendation..

Amazon.com: Pioneer SP-BS22-LR Andrew Jones Designed Bookshelf Loudspeakers: Electronics would be a good starting set of bookshelfs...

 

[David86]

Sorry for the stupid question about efficiency everyone. I just figured out it's the same as the dB/W/m values given in the specsheet.
Most specsheets I've looked at called this something like 'Output Sound Pressure Level', I had no idea that's the same as efficiency. So neither of the speakers I was looking at seem to be efficient enough, 98+ dB/W/m like markw suggests ...

 

[ImcLoud]

You are going to have trouble finding 98db efficient speakers of quality in cabinets for a conservative amount...
How far away are you from the speakers when listening?

look into these too http://www.amazon.com/Micca-MB42-Bookshelf-Speakers-Tweeter/dp/B009IUIV4A/ref=pd_cp_e_1

 

[David86]

Concerning the volume; I usually do not listen at very high levels, however since I just had a new setup I really wanted to know how loud I could go without distortion getting too severe. So that is what annoys me; with 'older' types of music, or music focused on vocals I can easily take it over 80 volume on the display without almost no notable distortion, while particular electronic tracks distort before reaching 50 on the display. I guess it will probably partly be due to the music itself too, but is the difference supposed to be this huge?

Those speakers seem indeed splendid for the money; I could definitely see myself buying this over the Polk. But indeed efficiency might still be a problem, so if you think I would get a better effect with the fmod crossover I would probably still consider taking that route too.

How relevant is the impedance in this particular case for my topping? Is the 4 ohm impedance of my Onkyo's not too low for the topping? I read about impedance charts, if they bottom much lower than advertised in the specsheet it could cause problems with certain frequencies, but I have no way of checking this chart for these speakers.

Thanks for the great help.

 

[fuzz092888]

The music of today generally has a low dynamic range and is mastered much louder than music of the past, which would explain why you can't take the volume much past 50. If the recording studio is poor, they may be mastering the audio channels into clipping, or the speakers themselves may be unable to handle these electronic tracks.

 

[David86]

When I'm at my pc, I'd say about a meter from each. Indeed those speakers look very nice too, I will read up on reviews of both your suggestions tomorrow. Is there any trick to recognise a good speaker / anything I need to pay special attention to to properly match it with the topping tp32?

Also, is there any reason no one is commenting back on my suggestions, are they just that bad? Is Polk not that great a brand? Or does everyone here just have their own personal preferences?

 

[fuzz092888]

When I'm at my pc, I'd say about a meter from each. Indeed those speakers look very nice too, I will read up on reviews of both your suggestions tomorrow. Is there any trick to recognise a good speaker / anything I need to pay special attention to to properly match it with the topping tp32?

Also, is there any reason no one is commenting back on my suggestions, are they just that bad? Is Polk not that great a brand? Or does everyone here just have their own personal preferences?

Generally speaking you can do better for the money than Polk. I already gave two suggestions in the price range of the Polks that are objectively better.

 

[markw]

What you have to keep in mind is you are only powering the speaker with 15watts

...and that's with 10% distortion. At a nore listenable .03% that drops to 9 watts. and that's with thiose 4 ohm Onkyo speakers. It'll be less with those higher impedance speakers.

Buy, hey, you know what you want. Enjoy. I'm outta here.

 

[David86]

@fuzz092888:

Yes, sorry, I kind of overlooked those because I thought you suggested those as specific 'electronic music' speakers. Thank you for bringing them back to my attention, will definitely read up on those too.

 

[fuzz092888]

@fuzz092888:

Yes, sorry, I kind of overlooked those because I thought you suggested those as specific 'electronic music' speakers. Thank you for bringing them back to my attention, will definitely read up on those too.

Generally more "monitor" style speakers are built with less aesthetics and more put into where it counts. One thing I did forget to mention is that both the emotivas and the rokits are self powered so you wouldn't need to worry about the topping amp in the end. Personally, I'd give them a shot and if you like them you can always sell the topping amp. I think you'd be very happy with them as nearfield monitors.