First Order Crossovers - Snake Oil or difference?

D

Docks

Audioholic
As the title says, have many of you heard 1st order XO's? It would be even more interesting to hear 1st vs 2nd or 3rd order with the same drivers. Have any of you heard such a expirament/setup? Do any of you swear by first order or would you consider it snake oil.

Lets hear your opinions and experiences, FIR vs IIR comparisons are also welcome.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
As the title says, have many of you heard 1st order XO's? It would be even more interesting to hear 1st vs 2nd or 3rd order with the same drivers. Have any of you heard such a expirament/setup? Do any of you swear by first order or would you consider it snake oil.

Lets hear your opinions and experiences, FIR vs IIR comparisons are also welcome.
There are a few good speakers with 1st order crossovers, such as Vandersteen or Thiele. However these rather expensive speakers have complex crossovers with lots of parts. The idea that fewer parts make for a better crossover, is at best oversimplified, and more likely completely untrue.

A good speaker with 1st order crossovers requires drivers that have a smooth frequency response for at least two octaves above and below the crossover point. So it would be difficult but maybe not impossible to set up such an experiment.

Remember that there is a difference between the "electrical order" of a crossover and the "acoustic order" of a crossover combined with drivers. A crossover can have a 1st order electrical design, but the drivers hooked up to that crossover may or may not have 1st order acoustic roll-off curves that are actually 6 dB per octave.

I have heard a simple 2-way speaker with a 2nd order and 4th order crossover. Both were designed well and I could not hear a difference. The DIY CAOW1 (linked below in my signature line) is has a 2nd order (acoustic) crossover. The Salk SongSurround I uses the same drivers in a similar cabinet, but uses a 4th order (acoustic) crossover.

A 1st order crossover was in the past said to be superior primarily because it does not impose an electrical phase shift between drivers involved in the crossover. This idea has been discredited, and now is mostly forgotten by all but a few uninformed audiophiles.
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Such an experiment is not possible because the best crossover order is dependent on the drivers and enclosure and it not exclusive of those parameters.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Snake oil. The only rational argument I've ever heard for 1st order crossovers is maintaining phase & time coherence. I've listened extensively to speakers with 1st order crossovers (Thiel & Dunlavy), and I can't hearing any convincing advantages over speakers with higher-order, non-phase-or-time-coherent crossovers. In fact, I have preferred speakers with 4th order crossovers over any others so far. Given the requirements already discussed on drivers for very wide frequency response, I think speakers with 1st order crossovers are just an ineffective attempt at a marketing differentiation that is measurable, but seem irrelevant to audible fidelity.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Snake oil. The only rational argument I've ever heard for 1st order crossovers is maintaining phase & time coherence. I've listened extensively to speakers with 1st order crossovers (Thiel & Dunlavy), and I can't hearing any convincing advantages over speakers with higher-order, non-phase-or-time-coherent crossovers. In fact, I have preferred speakers with 4th order crossovers over any others so far. Given the requirements already discussed on drivers for very wide frequency response, I think speakers with 1st order crossovers are just an ineffective attempt at a marketing differentiation that is measurable, but seem irrelevant to audible fidelity.
I agree completely with you. But… It's a boring Friday afternoon, so I'll make just one more speaker geek comment. :D

1st order crossovers keep the woofer and tweeter (in a 2-way speaker) electrically in phase with each other, hence the term "phase coherent". But the crossover does not affect time.

To affect the relative time that sound arrives at the listeners ears, speakers must have a backwards sloped front baffle. The woofer and tweeter must be arranged so their acoustic origins are equally far away from the listener, or so the theory goes. Tweeters are often shallower than woofers, so they must be further away to achieve time coherency. Of course, this simplistic thinking quickly breaks down when you realize that a speaker cabinet can only fix the woofer and tweeter to locations that are "time coherent" at one frequency. As the sound frequency changes, so must the relative distance between the drivers or they will no longer be "time coherent". :eek:

So the concept of "time coherent" speakers is only good if you listen to single test tones and always keep your head locked in the same location.

If you think about it, 4th order crossovers put the electrical signal for the woofer and tweeter 360° out of phase with each other. That's in phase, but one full cycle out of time. I rather doubt anyone can hear that.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
As the title says, have many of you heard 1st order XO's? It would be even more interesting to hear 1st vs 2nd or 3rd order with the same drivers. Have any of you heard such a expirament/setup? Do any of you swear by first order or would you consider it snake oil.

Lets hear your opinions and experiences, FIR vs IIR comparisons are also welcome.
Last year around this time, you had a great desire to listen to
the Vandersteen speakers - have you listened to them yet?
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/76010-vandersteen-7-5a-1st-order-xos-bunch-response-questions-etc.html

If so, then what are your thoughts?
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
So the concept of "time coherent" speakers is only good if you listen to single test tones and always keep your head locked in the same location.
You could always listen to little single driver cubes to get your time coherent fix :D I wonder if Bose has looked into that angle... Of course there are more serious full range single driver models.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Who needs crossovers ?:eek:

All you need is a pair of Funk unpowered subs (no XO) and some.....random......whatever......speakers. :D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Who needs crossovers ?:eek:

All you need is a pair of Funk unpowered subs (no XO) and some.....random......whatever......speakers. :D
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Keep up that kind of talk and you'll have to turn in your Dennis Murphy Fan Boy Club ID card.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Keep up that kind of talk and you'll have to turn in your Dennis Murphy Fan Boy Club ID card.
4th order all the way baby. :D

It seems like most of the high end are 4th order.

Like the KEF Q is 2nd order, the R is 3rd order, and then the Reference, Blade, and Muon are 4th order.

It seems like all the great measuring speakers are 4th order. Must be a good reason for that.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
It seems like all the great measuring speakers are 4th order. Must be a good reason for that.
IMO, yes. It is a better to trade away phase coherence for optimizing the band-pass of of real-world drivers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Those 4th order XO speakers from Revel Ultima2, KEF Reference, PSB Synchrony, Paradigm Signature, Philharmonic, Salk, Ascend, Linkwitz Lab, etc, measure extremely well.

Those 1st order XO speakers from Focal, Dynaudio, B&W, Thiel, Vandersteen, etc, don't measure as well.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
4th order all the way baby. :D

It seems like most of the high end are 4th order.

Like the KEF Q is 2nd order, the R is 3rd order, and then the Reference, Blade, and Muon are 4th order.

It seems like all the great measuring speakers are 4th order. Must be a good reason for that.
That's nonsense. The correct crossover is the one determined by the driver specs, and what type of lobing and dispersion you want.

Now smooth frequency response is essential. Even small aberrations in the mid band response and even as little as a db is audible.

Fourth order crossovers do to some extent make smooth overal response easier. However just designing a fourth order crossover is pure laziness.

Now we get into phase and time shifts. I do believe you should make the absolute minimum of time and phase shifts commensurate with smooth frequency response and overall deign goals.

I share the view that speakers with fourth order filters, though many are excellent, never go away with the gold.

A good fourth order design compared to an equally good design with less phase and time shift sounds some what "slugged."

Now I admit I'm influenced a lot here by Ted Jordan, who did an awful lot of work on this. There is a degradation in realism, especially the space around instruments, that is harmed the more the harmonics of instruments are separated from their fundamentals, in time and phase. I have certainly noticed this in my endeavors.

Worst case scenarios are when you have to reverse phase a driver to prevent a null at crossover. This does not preclude second order crossovers. The reason is that in the real world the crossover of a two way for instance is seldom at the same frequency for both drivers.

The acoustic orders have to be summed with the electrical orders. So you can avoid nulls at crossover even with second order crossovers.

So I do believe it is desirable to keep phase and time shifts to a minimum, but not as an over riding goal.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Now I admit I'm influenced a lot here by Ted Jordan, who did an awful lot of work on this. There is a degradation in realism, especially the space around instruments, that is harmed the more the harmonics of instruments are separated from their fundamentals, in time and phase. I have certainly noticed this in my endeavors.
I'm certainly not a qualified speaker designer, but the difference in arrival times has got to be so short, in the range of a few cycles even at 15KHz-20KHz, I can't believe this is an audible effect. Have you run experiments between coherent and non-coherent alternatives and heard a difference?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's nonsense....just designing a fourth order crossover is pure laziness...I do believe you should make the absolute minimum of time and phase shifts commensurate with smooth frequency response and overall deign goals....I share the view that speakers with fourth order filters...never go away with the gold....A good fourth order design compared to an equally good design with less phase and time shift sounds some what "slugged."
Give me one example of a 1st order XO speaker that has better measurements than 4th Order XO speakers like KEF 201/2, Revel Salon2, PSB Synchrony One, and Pioneer S-1EX.
 
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D

Docks

Audioholic
Give me one example of a 1st order XO speaker that has better measurements than 4th Order XO speakers like KEF 201/2, Revel Salon2, PSB Synchrony One, and Pioneer S-1EX.
Not sure about "better" frequency response, but vandersteen 7, 5a and quatro are pretty good. +/- 2db.

I've also noticed B&W has been trying to simplify their crossovers, not sure if it's marketing or what.

http://www.vandersteen.com/model7_specifications.pdf
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not sure about "better" frequency response, but vandersteen 7, 5a and quatro are pretty good. +/- 2db.

I've also noticed B&W has been trying to simplify their crossovers, not sure if it's marketing or what.

http://www.vandersteen.com/model7_specifications.pdf
Here is the Vandersteen Model 7 on Stereophile:

Vandersteen Model Seven loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

The on-axis from 200Hz-10kHz +/-4dB, NOT +/-2dB.

The off-axis is one of the worst I've ever seen. :eek:

Here is the Quatro:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/vandersteen-audio-quatro-loudspeaker-measurements

On-axis is +/-5dB, and off-axis is terrible as ever.

Here is the B&W 800 Diamond:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

On-axis is +/-5dB, off-axis is better than Vandersteen, but still worse than Infinity P362.
 
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D

Docks

Audioholic
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Whenever I start hearing things about coherence and speakers, these always come to mind. It doesn't say first order in the description, it says "Proprietary hybrid minimum phase, 1.8 kHz"




I'll throw this in here as well

 
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