first HiFi

[lorcar]

Hello everyone

first time poster here, not a big expert, just music lover. Please I need your help to select a good (understood pretty difficult to use the word “best”) system for my budget. My apology for the long thread.

My source: mainly cd (around 2.000 so ripping is not an option)
Music: classic, chamber, opera, piano solo, jazz + radio and some podcast.
Like detailed, spatial, clear and natural sound, but not cold.
Budget: 2.000 EURO (2.000USD/ 1500 GBP), stretchable at most to 2.500 euro (2.800 usd/ 1.800 gbp)

I have been reading for some weeks now, and few days ago I started to listen as well. Basically I am torn between two main alternatives:

“Alternative 1”- a good integrated entry system, like the Cambridge MINX XI, which is Ampli+DAC+network streamer. Has a good price, good quality. This would give me everything, and leave budget for the speakers, and be the simplest and cleanest solution. I read many reviews and the internal Dac is supposed to be very good.

“Alternative 2” - increase a bit in quality, stretch the budget, get a good ampli-dac+cd, and add a cheap web radio which will be sent to the good Dac into the amplifier. First thinking: Cambridge new CX series: ampli culd be the CX A60 and the cd player the CXC, a player with NO dac inside. I would miss the chance to send some podcast from my pc/mac to the stereo. I would gain flexibility to change some component or add a new one in the future. As far as I have read, the network streamers currently on the market produce good sound but software somehow has still to catch-up, so i might buy this in the future, and now buy just a web radio receiver. Nevertheless, I saw network streamers like Pioneer N30 do not cost too much.

I should try to listen to these two alternatives and assign a price to the difference in quality I am supposed to hear (not sure yet!) But I am still confused about few fundamental issues.
Let's start:
1- “invest more of your budget into the speakers” VS “rubbish in rubbish out, so split equally your budget among the components”. I heard both of them. What follows in the first case is to use a basic cd player/dvd player, send the digital signal to my good Dac and enjoy. In the second case instead I should also invest in a good cd player or blu ray should I use the same for movies as well.
2- pairing ampli with speakers. I am still confused on how to undestad if an ampli and speakers are potentially a good match. I know, I should listen, but in theory I hear “that ampli cannot express the best out of those speakers” or “those speakers are an overkill with that ampli” or “you need a better ampli for that speakers” or instead “with that ampli you should use a better speaker set”. In theory, I understood I should look not at WATT, but at somethink related to electrical power/ampere, but dont know much. So if I choose speakers first, I dont know how to choose the best ampli for that speakers.

As far as the speakers: so far I heard just TOTEM (canadian producer) MITE model. I was blown away, seriously. I couldn't imagine speakers so small would produce that clarity, that definition of space. Cannot think a bigger speaker to sound better. But I'd like to hear something more before. I was set to listen B&W 685 s2, as I had read good things, but perhaps the Mite are a bit superior. Other I'd like to listen: Sonus Faber Venere 2.0, Focal 906 and some Monitor Audio.
To sum all this up, my questions for you experts are the following:
1- what would you suggest for me in terms of alternative1 vs alternative2?
2- should I buy a quality cd player or a basic cheapest blu ray reader ?
3- should I look to buy bigger floorstander spearkers? or with the budget is better to stick to bookshelves? Do you have alternatives to the speakers I mentioned?

Thanks really a lot in advance

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

sorry, Maybe not be fully relevant to your post (didn't finished reading it) but my recommendations are these:

1) Source - any decent $100 DVD/BD player will do. If you can - get a Panasonic made one - they make pretty decent transport.
2) Pre/Pro and amp - I'd look for 3-5 years old Mid-Range Yamaha/Marantz/Denon receiver
3) Speakers - here you should put MOST of budget

In general real full-range floorstanders cost arm and a leg. You could find some exceptional examples in niche vendors in US for only $2-3k US - but with shipping/fees you might out of price range

So your best bet is capable bookshelves + sub combo
In Europe there are plenty of good choices - no need to look for canadian imports - Wharfedale comes to mind a good and solid value speakers. If (and that's a big IF) you could get Elac Debut in europe - these have exceptionally high value/quality.

Subs: I heard subs from BK Electronics are pretty good value.

 

[ski2xblack]

If you're a music lover, and not a big expert on all the hoopla surrounding audio, stick around.

I would suggest that specific product choices and system setup should start with you, the observer, and work backwards from there, prioritizing things that are relevant to good music reproduction.

So, starting with you and moving backwards brings us to the room the speakers will be placed in. Ideally, the speaker is chosen with specific consideration for local acoustics, with the corollary, audition speakers in your own listening room if at all possible. Some understanding of acoustics is a great help at this stage, but you can probably lean on us for that if you don't want to dive down the rabbit hole and read Toole's book yourself (although it's terribly fascinating and full of practical knowledge).

Next, the speakers are the single greatest determining factor and influence on what you'll eventually end up with. Your choice demands the most consideration, and for best results will probably end up being the bulk of your budget. Think 70/30 allocation for speakers/the rest. Subs are speakers too, are they part of the plan?

Jumping well ahead to the point where you've chosen speakers that you like and that should work well in your acoustic environment, the speaker choice will dictate power needs and thus basic minimum amp requirements. No further time or expense should be spent beyond meeting (or reasonably exceeding) basic requirements when it comes to amps. One of the several peak spl calculators available can help you get a reasonable idea of power demands.

Past that are the features you want. Is this a dedicated two channel rig, or do you want to expand to multichannel/ht down the road? Even if you don't, an AV device will have bass management, so if subs are in the plan it may influence your choice. Other features such as streaming, etc? Again, once you narrow down choices that meet your specific demands, no further time or expense should be devoted here.

That is my general advice. As for the Totems, I think if you like them for the price, they perform well in your room, and are capable of delivering your desired listening levels without losing composure, they should probably be in the running. But you have gobs of alternatives to choose from yet to be heard, and as I said, the speakers are the most critical choice you'll make. Take your time, get ears on more speakers, and thus make a more fully informed decision.

Are PMC speakers readily available near you?

 

[KEW]

Good advice above, I just wanted to add/reinforce some points:
1) DAC is not worth spending money for exotic units. The DAC in any modern CD/DVD/BD player has the ability to do a proper conversion. The format was designed to be pretty much fool-proof. Mark recommended Panasonic, I would add Sony. One thing to be certain to do is listen to the mechanism while a CD is playing. I had a Samsung which was so noisy as to make its presence known whenever the music had a quiet passage! Also make sure it will play the formats you use (such as MP3).
2) I heard Totems (Rainmakers). I loved them for clean open music such as Norah Jones. They also did well with stuff like Steely Dan. However, my experience was problematic when they are played loud with very busy/crowded music (like Frank Zappa). I felt like the natural resonance of the speaker began to lose control in this situation. Simply consider the type of music you listen to and listen again with the "busiest" music you like. If they manage this test, I think you have found a very good candidate! I am still considering them as a bedroom speaker (for comparatively soft music) because they had drop-dead gorgeous looks and sounded delightful when not pushed too hard! The way you describe the music you listen to would suggest these may, indeed, be a very good fit for you!
3) Determine your speaker first because the differences between speakers are substantial and the speakers will determine how your system sounds. Once you know your speakers we can assist with the appropriate receiver. (appropriate means enough power at the right impedance to properly drive your speakers - typically almost any receiver would do, but until we know the speakers, room size, and some idea of whether you like to crank it, we can't be certain the AVR will do the job.

 

[herbu]

Agree with everybody above. Speakers FIRST, then basic components for the source. CD player can be very basic, (inexpensive). Amp or Receiver w/ enough power to drive the speakers, then whatever various features you want and can fit into your budget. (A receiver will give you LOTS more bang for the buck if you have any idea of ever using the system for more than just 2-channel CDs.)

 

[lorcar]

thanks really a lot

could you please elaborate on "enough power to drive the speakers"
which parameter should I look at? just the W interval I see on the amp?

I was just suggested the floorstander Indiana Line Diva 665, at the same pricepoint, apparently they sound terrific

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Regarding these speakers: http://www.indianaline.it/en/diva-665/2005 , most important parameter in this case is Sensitivity (2.83 V / 1 m) since at (claimed) 92 dB - even tea kettle could power these with ease
I mean even 30W amp would be plenty to play it loudly

 

[ski2xblack]

How much is "enough"? Too much is just enough. Clipping is bad audio form, and music lovers try not to abuse the music so.

Seriously, it depends on speaker sensitivity, the distance you'll be from them, room gain, how loud you want to listen, etc. So if you want to reach reference level peaks of 105 db, you can estimate power required to achieve those levels.

The load the speakers present will also help determine appropriate amplification.

Let's use that Indiana Line Diva you mention as an example. With that particular speaker, you want an amplifier capable of driving 4 ohm loads, and whose available power is sufficient to provide you with your desired listening levels, with perhaps a little extra headroom (keep in mind the exponential power demands...doubling of power only yields a fairly minor +3db, quadrupling power yields +6 db...twice as loud subjectively, +10db, requires ~10x as much power). Using THIS online peak spl calculator, with the manufacturer supplied 92db/w/m sensitivity (which could be and likely is generous), and assuming 10' distance (just a guess), and placement option "away from walls", you'll see that 100 watts will get you just over 105 db. That's about as loud as I personally would ever listen, but you may be a head-banger, or greater or less than 10' from the speakers. Plug in the numbers that reflect your situation and see what the results are.

 

[KEW]

Regarding these speakers: http://www.indianaline.it/en/diva-665/2005 , most important parameter in this case is Sensitivity (2.83 V / 1 m) since at (claimed) 92 dB - even tea kettle could power these with ease
I mean even 30W amp would be plenty to play it loudly

Is that a safe statement without knowing the impedance?
I'm asking, not disagreeing.

 

[ski2xblack]

The manufacturer states 4-8 ohm, and with a dual woofs it's pretty safe to say 4 ohms.

BSA is probably right, or at least not wrong. 30 w into 4 ohms is within the capacity of many amps, even ones not rated into such loads. Using that peak spl calculator with the same terms, 30 watts still cracks 100 db. That doesn't leave much margin, but would be entirely sufficient for those who never need to tap into more power.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Is that a safe statement without knowing the impedance?
I'm asking, not disagreeing.

ski2xblack's answer is more correct