Finalizing my first system. Thoughts?

[Lordhumungus]

Long time lurker first time poster here hoping to bring the elite guru's out of hiding to help me finalize/critique my planned HT setup. The only thing I have purchased so far is the receiver which seemed to be too good to pass up.

To give some background/usage info, all components will be used in a very small (approx 900-1000 cu ft) room for a relatively even mix of movies and music. I'll be playing most everything through my HTPC as I have a massive media server to pull everything from. My budget for the speakers and sub is around $1500 but I would prefer to keep it closer to $1300 or less. This will be my first "real" Home Theater setup as I am coming from a set of Logitech Z5500 PC speakers that have served me well for about the past 5 years, so I want to get a high quality system that will fit my needs without destroying my budget or being massively overkill for my small space.

I have access to a few brands (B&W, Paradigm, Velodyne, possibly others) at a reduced cost, but I haven't looked into much besides Paradigm since I have heard such great things about them all over the place, as well as them being recommended by the person providing the discount.

With that, below is my planned setup including my approximate costs:

Receiver - Yamaha RX-A800 - $300 (Already purchased)
Front - Paradigm Mini Monitor v7 - $170 Each
Center - Paradigm Center 1 - $217
Rear - Paradigm Atom v7 - $115 Each
Subwoofer - Paradgim Monitor Sub 12 - ~$580
SVS PC12-NSD - $749

Receiver/Speakers:
Anyone see any glaring issues with this setup? I jumped on the Yamaha receiver a few weeks ago when it was cleared out at the egg because it seemed like too sweet a deal to pass up, especially for my intended use, but if there is something obviously better in the price or performance range I am looking for, I'd consider it since the receiver hasn't even been opened yet. Also, I've looked into the Paradigm ADP-1 speakers for surrounds, but I think I've decided to get the Atoms instead so that I can more easily sell them at a later date and move the Mini's to rear surrounds should I decide to upgrade. Also, as much as I should be ashamed to admit it, I find the form factor of the ADP's less than aesthetically pleasing and I'm not sure how I feel about bipole speakers.

Subwoofer:
Haven't really found anything on the Monitor Sub 12 other than the press release and preview on this site. I've read an offhand comment about it on these forums as well saying that it was awesome, but that was about it. Seems like a real killer on paper, but does anyone here
have any firsthand experience with it, or any of the other Paradigm subs? I know the SVS is L-O-V-E-D around these parts, but I'm trying to decide if for the price and size disparity (my room is already cramped as it is) it would be worth it. I've also read some about HSU, Velodyne, Rythmik, Outlaw, and a few others, but unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'm fairly certain it'll be one of these two.

Now that my wall of text is out of the way, I'd love any input you guys have.

Thanks for looking!

 

[FirstReflection]

Hi there!

I can give a thumbs up to that proposed system

Obviously, there are a ton of choices out there, but if you have access to those Paradigm Monitor speakers at a reduced price and you like their sound already, I've no reason to steer you otherwise! Paradigm makes nice, neutral speakers. Really nothing "spectacular" about them, but also no real issues. They just play things accurately and really, what more can you want from a speaker?

Full disclosure, I have not heard the newest v7 Monitor speakers for myself yet. I've no reason to expect some sort of huge change in sound quality from their previous versions though. If the price is right for you and you like their sound, no reason to avoid them. So thumbs up from me on the Paradigm speakers!

In a genuinely "small" room such as yours (I'm guessing around 10' x 12' x 8' or so?) it isn't necessary to go crazy on the subwoofer output. That said, you probably won't be in this particular room for the rest of your life, right? You can never really have "too much" sub (except for sheer physical size, of course ). But to be perfectly honest, if you're only looking for a sub to match this room specifically, you could "get away" with a lower output sub.

You'll never see me tell someone to avoid a great sub like the SVSound PC12-NSD! It is honestly one of the least expensive subs to really deliver genuinely flat response right down to 20Hz - and to maintain that linear response even as the volume increases. It's a really great sub and the PC cylinder version is a superb way to save on floor space.

That said, if I'm being as honest as I can be, the output capabilities of the PC12-NSD are not entirely necessary in a room of your size - you won't even come close to stressing the PC12-NSD, it's capable of considerably more output than you need . If you ever plan to move to a larger room in the future though, the PC12-NSD will be ready See? I just can't say to not buy the darn thing

But yeah, you could opt to go a little less expensive on the sub without a problem in your current small room size. In fact, you're very likely to have substantial room gain due to the small size, in which case, a sealed subwoofer with a natural 12dB/octave roll off starting up around 40Hz will work quite nicely.

My own personal approach to subwoofers is to get a sub that plays nice and flat (and stays flat as the volume increases) all the way down to 20Hz on its own. If the room gain boosts the low end, I will flatten that back out with EQ. The reason I prefer this is that you can't always predict how the room and sub will interact with high accuracy. In general, smaller rooms will produce more room gain, which allows for less output in the low end since the room's acoustics will compensate. But it's tough to predict the exact curve that will result.

I can say with confidence that the Rythmik FV12 would be more than adequate in terms of output and extension in your small room. It is also nice because it has the ability to reduce its deep bass output in order to compensate for room gain. Those controls are not available on every sub. The PC12-NSD, in fact, does not have those sorts of controls. So if you don't have some other device that can EQ the bass, it's actually likely that the PC12-NSD's strong, low bass output combined with your small room's gain will boost the low end a bit too much, which can lead to a "boomy" sound, even though the sub itself is very accurate. There's the physical size to consider with the FV12 though. At 16" wide and 19" deep, it doesn't take up a whole lot more floor space than the PC12-NSD's 16.5" diameter cylinder shape, but it is a bit bigger and certainly boxier

Personally, I like the FV12 for your room because of those low end controls that it offers. It's a bit less expensive, so that's never a bad thing Again, it's awfully hard for me to say to NOT get an SVS PC12-NSD, but the FV12 might honestly be better suited to your current room because of those low end controls.

The other option if you want to get a smaller physical size is to go sealed. The SVsound SB12-NSD has a frequency response that should play very well in your room size. With a sealed sub, you gain the benefit of virtually no group delay from a port. The sealed sub will have higher distortion in the super deep bass at high output levels, but in your room size, you don't need really high output levels and the room gain should boost the super deep stuff anyway. So it's a good match in a case like yours

The Rythmik F12 would also be a good choice, although it's actually more expensive than any of the other subs mentioned, so it's a bit tougher to recommend here.

If I add it all up, I have to be honest and say that I think the Rythmik FV12 might actually be your best choice for a sub. That's including factoring in that it is less expensive at $500 and about $60-$65 for shipping. The size isn't a whole lot bigger than the PC12-NSD cylinder - although it IS a bit bigger and a box shape rather than a cylinder. It has nice, flat response down to about 23 or 24Hz on its own. It's very well engineered and won't ever damage itself if you move it to a larger room with higher playback levels in the future. And perhaps most importantly, it has those low bass controls, where you can make it slope off the super deep stuff to compensate for the very likely room gain that you will have in your small room - something the PC12-NSD cannot do on its own, and will thus, very likely demand some outboard EQ.

So yeah, I like the FV12 for your sub. I feel crazy recommending that someone step DOWN from a PC12-NSD - but there you have it There are valid reasons to do so in this particular case. And I'm sure the lower price doesn't hurt either

 

[GranteedEV]

I have access to a few brands (B&W, Paradigm, Velodyne, possibly others) at a reduced cost, but I haven't looked into much besides Paradigm since I have heard such great things about them all over the place, as well as them being recommended by the person providing the discount.

I would definitely recommend looking into more brands than paradigm. There's a lot of good stuff out there. The Infinity Primus stuff would be my suggestion at your general price range, and the Ascend acoustics stuff is worth it too. Discounts are nice but not if the overall speaker is mediocre. Can you live with the Paradigm stuff?

Also, I've looked into the Paradigm ADP-1 speakers for surrounds, but I think I've decided to get the Atoms instead so that I can more easily sell them at a later date and move the Mini's to rear surrounds should I decide to upgrade. Also, as much as I should be ashamed to admit it, I find the form factor of the ADP's less than aesthetically pleasing and I'm not sure how I feel about bipole speakers.

I wouldn't bother about those special style surround speakers. The people mixing the surround tracks certainly don't!

Haven't really found anything on the Monitor Sub 12 other than the press release and preview on this site. I've read an offhand comment about it on these forums as well saying that it was awesome, but that was about it. Seems like a real killer on paper, but does anyone here
have any firsthand experience with it, or any of the other Paradigm subs? I know the SVS is L-O-V-E-D around these parts, but I'm trying to decide if for the price and size disparity (my room is already cramped as it is) it would be worth it. I've also read some about HSU, Velodyne, Rythmik, Outlaw, and a few others, but unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'm fairly certain it'll be one of these two.

- Get two subs, not one. This is very important for good SQ as it gives an even coverage. Having EQ'd flat bass at your head is useless if you have no bass across your boddy! You need smooth bass without peaks and dips.

-SVS is nice stuff but so are HSU and Outlaw and Rythmik. Velodyne is generally pretty overpriced. Paradigm subs are also overpriced. Personally I'd rather spend 1K on a pair of FV12s than 700 on a single PB12-NSD.

 

[timoteo]

IF youve heard the Paradigms with your own ears & liked them then go for them. BUT...try to at least listen to other speakers to compare. Paradigms seem to be more mass marketed. You get around guys who are really into audio & they aren liked quite as much. But of course it should only really matter what YOU think of them!!

I really like FirstRef take on possibly "down sizing" on the sub. I had a similar experience with low bass room gain with my HSU. Fortunately it has plenty of setting adjustments & i was able to run it in a mode that gives me more output in the 25-40hz range. Because i could EQ the low bass down a bit i was able to get a very flat response. The Rythmik FV-12 is arguably the best sub for $500. Hes right that you will probably need to tame the low bass so as not to have the sub sound "boomy". Articulate bass is what you want & the FV-12 has it in spades for the price.

I have always been extremely impressed with HSU's bookshelves. I have sat & listened to them 3 different times & at $130 a pop i havent heard better. They are designed to be fed off a midrange receiver such as your Yammy & are very detailed & dynamic. I love their sound. Grab 4 bookshelves & 1 center for about $750 then just add a sub. Me personally, id for sure go this route over the Paradigms. But again i cant speak for what you would like. Just another option.

I just went over on HSU Research's website. They have a new list of package deals which is awesome. You would do great with the Enthusiest2 package. You get 4books/1center&vft2-4 for $1249. Thats a Kick@ss system for your size room!!!

Aigh...soo many options out there i know it can be tough!!

 

[Lordhumungus]

Thanks to both of you for the great input. Edit: All three of you, two was correct when I started

I think I agree with FirstReflection that the PC12-NSD is more sub than I actually need, but I am really attracted to its cylinder form factor and all the positive reviews I've read. A big boxy sub is just going to look strange in my room since it will most likely be at or near the same height as my TV stand, but concessions must be made in the name of Science....errr a quality aural experience. That being said, the Rythmik does seem like a more logical choice for my room.

One question I have about the Rythmik is why exactly would I want to turn down (up?) and/or limit the frequency extension? I know the size of my room is the main factor here, but not much more than that.

^Edit: To avoid "boominess"?

Can I safely assume by the lack of commentary that the Paradigm sub just doesn't have much info out in the world yet? I've heard some people say they love their Paradigm sub (usually higher end) and some people seem to think they are average at best. On paper though, the Monitor Sub 12 seems like a really solid performer, especially at the price I can get it for. That being said, it does seem the retail MSRP is a bit on the high side relative to other brands in what I perceive to be the same or similar performance category. The thing that is keeping it in the race at this point is the small form factor and relative price to purported performance, but I may end up avoiding it simply because there is no first-hand info available that I've seen.

As much as I'd love it to be, having two subs in my room is simply not an option unless I figure out how to make them into a bed

On the speaker front, I will be honest in saying that I have YET to actually go out and listen to anything specific (for shame, I know). With the insane amount of overtime I work, I'm trying to narrow down the candidates to a manageable number and then try to audition them in person (one of the downsides to the HSU speakers/sub). Although I did hop over to their website and see that exact package and it did look intriguing to say the least.

The Infinity Primus are definitely in the budget wheelhouse, but they are simply too big to consider for my application. I really need to stick to bookshelf sized speakers and even that is pushing it to some degree.

I see that both timoteo and GranteedEV have a somewhat "meh" feeling towards the Paradigms. Is there anything specific and (if at all possible) tangible about them that you guys didn't like and/or feel were outperformed by other speakers?

Bring on the information torrent!

 

[FirstReflection]

The thing with Paradigm is that because they still sell only via the traditional retail channels, if you're looking at their standard pricing and the performance quality delivered at that price, they tend to be considered a bit "over priced" for their performance.

I put "over priced" in quotation marks because up against other traditional retail speakers, they've often been a better value in the past. But with so much internet direct competition these days, the notions of "value" have changed is all.

So yeah, a lot of people are kinda "meh" on Paradigm because they aren't anything spectacular for their price point. However, you were saying that you can get them at a discount, which certainly helps, and you will also find that while most people are jumping over the moon about Paradigm, they also don't have anything really negative to say either! They are just very plain, neutral speakers that don't really do anything wrong, nor do they do anything spectacular. There's no "wow" to them, but also no, "well that doesn't sound right"

I really like the Signature Paradigms, but those are WAY more expensive

Speakers can be such a personal taste purchase. It's really tough to know what someone else is going to love! But the Paradigms ARE accurate, neutral speakers. People might not get super excited over them, but they also don't think they're "bad". It's just that other speakers might appeal to them more for...whatever reason. Paradigms are like the "safe" choice

At a discounted price, I have nothing negative to say about them, which is why I'm perfectly happy to give them two thumbs up! But yeah, if you can hear and compare some speakers for yourself, that's about the only way to really figure out what you like. So don't think of Paradigm as "bad", cause they most certainly are not. And at a discounted price, they'll stack up well against pretty much all of the competition. But it's also entirely possible that you'll find other speakers for the same price that make you go "wow" and make you happier for it. It's a personal taste thing, so it's worth taking a bit of time and having a listen for yourself

 

[GranteedEV]

I think I agree with FirstReflection that the PC12-NSD is more sub than I actually need, but I am really attracted to its cylinder form factor and all the positive reviews I've read. A big boxy sub is just going to look strange in my room since it will most likely be at or near the same height as my TV stand, but concessions must be made in the name of Science....errr a quality aural experience. That being said, the Rythmik does seem like a more logical choice for my room.

If the PC12 works for you, get it, but I strongly recommend TWO, not ONE! I only suggested dual rythmiks because $1000 is less than $1400!

One question I have about the Rythmik is why exactly would I want to turn down (up?) and/or limit the frequency extension? I know the size of my room is the main factor here, but not much more than that.

The presumption is that pressure vessel gain will overload your room below 30hz and cause a bottom tilted, "sluggish" response, signatory of vented loudspeakers.

I'd be inclined to disagree. No harm in having extra headroom. Maybe go sealed because combined with pressure vessel gain you can squeeze response a bit deeper, although nothing sealed will provide meaningful response near that price IMO.

The main thing is that for good bass you need to be able to

1) Experiment with position
2) have multiple physical locations / sources loading the room.
3) Be able to equalize and measure. Sometimes you need to to tame down a rising response as much as 10-12db!!

The above three things are vital and any setup that ignores the above is a lazy, poor setup.

Can I safely assume by the lack of commentary that the Paradigm sub just doesn't have much info out in the world yet? I've heard some people say they love their Paradigm sub (usually higher end) and some people seem to think they are average at best. On paper though, the Monitor Sub 12 seems like a really solid performer, especially at the price I can get it for.

People who own subwoofers always think their sub is the best, especially if it lacks bass below 30hz because then they think it's super tight and fast. Paradigm subs use a lot of watts and small boxes but are inherently limited for those same reasons.

Let's consider the sub 12 for example. A sealed 12" driver being fed 1700 watts.

There's a few problems with this.

The high watts indicate to me two things

1) Low efficiency.
2) Lots of low end boost.

Unfortunately a sealed 12 is limited by volume displacement. Commercial subs like this also abuse protection filters, which takes away any advantage it may have in a small room as far as pressure vessel gain was concerned.

It's small, and it's a 12" driver. Anyone who hears it will think it's tight and accurate, even if all they're hearing is +10db response @ 60hz (seriously, never pay attention to anyone's "stick it in a corner and listen" subjective reviews when it comes to any bass below 120hz)

The thing that is keeping it in the race at this point is the small form factor and relative price to purported performance, but I may end up avoiding it simply because there is no first-hand info available that I've seen.

Small Form Factor. That's what sells. That's all the info Paradigm wants you to know.

As much as I'd love it to be, having two subs in my room is simply not an option unless I figure out how to make them into a bed

Then figure it out!

I really need to stick to bookshelf sized speakers and even that is pushing it to some degree.

While the room is small, there's still only so far a bookshelf, especially the typical budget bookshelf can take you in the lower midrange. A lot of the time people take excellent subwoofers, and then mate them to inadequate mains. Why even spend all that money on the sub???! And then people set their sub 10db hot to compensate, but that just sounds bad!

FWIW I do like Timoteo's HSU recommendation. While there can be some horn resonances heard at higher SPLs, the tuning for those drivers makes them better suited for mating to a sub, than the typical low sensitivity, "45hz" bookshelf that is popular.

My suggestion is still to strongly consider Ascend Acoustics.

Is there anything specific and (if at all possible) tangible about them that you guys didn't like and/or feel were outperformed by other speakers?

I've heard paradigm speakers a couple of times (but not the Signature series mind you) but i'm not expert on them. I don't think they really do anything all that great... some people like that wooly, intimate, blandish sound but to me it's kind of... fake.

I prefer speakers that, reasonably dollar for dollar, are a window to the recording and yes I understand that's often asking a lot. Of course we're all biased for whatever reasons so to you - no one's opinion matters including my own. Trust measurements to guide you to a starting point, and then audition speakers that measure well with your own ears - BE PATIENT and DO AUDITION!

Remember that a speaker that adds to a recording in its own unique way, is technically removing from that recording. I can live with sins of omission (IE less absolte detail), but not always sins of commission (IE hot tweeter or mistuned bass vent)

For the last 2 daysI've been listening to these speakers in the nearfield:

EMP Tek E41-B Bookshelf Speaker

...and while they won't have the kind of output for anything worthy of being called an HT (only so far a 4" midbass can go) I can safely say that these wipe the floor with anything i've personally heard from Paradigm - stereo imaging, bass definition, midrange resolution.

Again, if your ears guide you to paradigm at the end of it all, fine, but if you're just buying based on a quick audition VS 2 other brands, or buying blind, then put some serious thought into it.

I'm not against buying blind either - if the measurements are decent then 30 day audition periods of internet direct brands are very good.

But you have to be able to live with the speakers. They're not a novelty, they're the window to the source material you'll watch whenever you want, so they shouldn't be a distraction!!

I'm not going to say Paradigm speakers are bad because i can only say such a thing if you've got measurements to back it up - my opinion is meaningless. I just recommend you exercise due diligence!

 

[Lordhumungus]

Finally able to get away from work long enough to post some more thoughts after I've had time to assimilate all the information you guys gave me (thanks by the way, everyone has been tremendously helpful).

Now that I've had some time to think it over and read up, I think I'm going in completely different direction than I had planned to previously......hopefully for the better.

On the speaker front, I was extremely impressed by what everyone had to say about the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE. I even read a fair number of anecdotal accounts that they performed somewhere around the level of the Paradigm Studio 20 or better, which in my estimation is pretty amazing.

The main questions I have about the Ascend Speakers is do they have a dedicated center channel or are you "supposed" to move up to the CMT-340 SE Center or perhaps something else altogether? I'm hoping there is slightly more cost effective solution than the CMT-340 SE, but I guess I've got to do what I've got to do to make this system as right as possible so I hopefully don't have to do this for a long time.

The second question is, should I be trying to use the CBM-170 SE as surround speakers, or should I drop down to the HTM-200 SE? Since they are the same price, that's not really the concern here, I just want to make sure I'm matching up everything correctly for the best sound possible.

Lastly, I see that these can be powered anywhere from 25-200 Watts RMS, which is a huge range. Will the receiver I have be able to adequately power these guys? I can't recall seeing a speaker with such a large RMS range.

On the sub front, I checked out the offerings from HSU and while they appear to be the "better" subs between Rythmik, they are simply too big for my room (this similarly disqualifies Outlaw). Even the Rythmik FV12 is REALLY pushing it for size, but I think I can make it work.

That said, I'm very interested in the Rythmik F12 because of it's reduced girthyness. Anyone have any thoughts on how this sub compares to the FV12? Different price, sealed enclosure, different driver material. What kind of performance should I expect? I'm particularly interested in direct comparisons between the FV12 and the F12, since it is looking more and more like this is where I will end-up. It's probably also the only sub that I MIGHT physically be able to fit 2 of in my room without using it as furniture and allow GranteedEV's mind to be put at ease

I was also hoping I could get some clarification on what "low end boost" is.

Lastly, any comments on the receiver in all this? I'm hoping it's at least adequate for what I am trying to, especially since I am just looking for good sound and not something that is sentient and contains a CPU that is a neural net processor/learning computer. That is to say I don't care about satellite/network/iDevice connectivity.

I think that does it for round two, but I'm sure I'll be back for more. Thanks again everyone for the great info!

 

[Lordhumungus]

Bumping for input from all the experts out there.

 

[templemaners]

The main questions I have about the Ascend Speakers is do they have a dedicated center channel or are you "supposed" to move up to the CMT-340 SE Center or perhaps something else altogether? I'm hoping there is slightly more cost effective solution than the CMT-340 SE, but I guess I've got to do what I've got to do to make this system as right as possible so I hopefully don't have to do this for a long time.

Why don't you use a single CBM-170 SE for a center channel? That would work just as well IMO.

The second question is, should I be trying to use the CBM-170 SE as surround speakers, or should I drop down to the HTM-200 SE? Since they are the same price, that's not really the concern here, I just want to make sure I'm matching up everything correctly for the best sound possible.

I'd probably go with CBM-170's for the surrounds as well. 5 all around would be pretty nice. The only thing you might want to keep in mind is the CBM-170 is rear ported, so if you have to place them close to walls for the surrounds, it might not work as well. That's part of the reason I have P362's for surrounds (front ported). Well, that and I got them for $300.

Lastly, I see that these can be powered anywhere from 25-200 Watts RMS, which is a huge range. Will the receiver I have be able to adequately power these guys? I can't recall seeing a speaker with such a large RMS range.

I wouldn't worry about the power handling, unless you play at super loud levels or have a long distance between the listening position and the speakers. I sit about 8-9 feet away from my speakers and loud to me only shows up as about 70-75 dB on my SPL meter.

 

[GranteedEV]

On the speaker front, I was extremely impressed by what everyone had to say about the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE. I even read a fair number of anecdotal accounts that they performed somewhere around the level of the Paradigm Studio 20 or better, which in my estimation is pretty amazing.

Forget the anecdotes when you have cold hard facts from the SAME publication!!

Paradigm Studio 20:

Ascend CBM-170:

The latter is just a flat out better measuring loudspeaker! The Paradigm shows a bloated lower midrange / upper bass. It's a pure marketing trick to get people to think "This tiny speaker has so much bass!", but not desirable due to the effect on overall sound quality.

The main questions I have about the Ascend Speakers is do they have a dedicated center channel or are you "supposed" to move up to the CMT-340 SE Center or perhaps something else altogether? I'm hoping there is slightly more cost effective solution than the CMT-340 SE, but I guess I've got to do what I've got to do to make this system as right as possible so I hopefully don't have to do this for a long time.

You've got plenty of options. My personal recommendation would be two CMT-340s, forget the center altogether. That'll give you better mains without wasting your money on a center when a phantom center ain't bad.

Of course nothing wrong with the above suggestion to use a CMT-170 as a center. People are resistant to vertical centers only because of aesthetic reasons. From a performance standpoint it's prefered for open, natural vocals. As with anything though, the dynamic limitations of a 2-driver bookshelf are what they are. A 3-driver 2-way bookshelf like the CMT-340 has some certain advantages in the lower midrange and upper bass (where it must blend with the sub seamlessly at any usable SPL), and the MTM alignment can improve speech intelligibility when used vertically by reducing ceiling/floor reflections in the upper midrange which tend to be highest in amplitude and earliest in arrival time, at the frequency where our ears are most sensitive.

For all I know, the HTMs-200s might be the right choice for you as fronts. Discuss itwith with Dave at Ascend - Ii'm positive he'll help you out for your application and room!

I would not use the HTM-200s as surrounds however. As I mentioned the MTM alignment has its pros, but it's unsuited for surround use because surrrounds are normally mounted in awkward locations, so you want smooth vertical and horizontal response. MTMs innately have vertical issues so if you're not sitting in the right spot you might not get the spacious surround envelope that you want. I'd go for the simpler 170s as far as surrounds are concerned.

Lastly, I see that these can be powered anywhere from 25-200 Watts RMS, which is a huge range. Will the receiver I have be able to adequately power these guys? I can't recall seeing a speaker with such a large RMS range.

RMS is meaningless as far as the receiver is concerned. The Ascends are a very easy-to-drive 5 ohm speaker and the aventage 800 should have no difficulty driving them, especially in your smaller room where there will be plenty of spectral reflections contributing to the perceived SPL!

That said, I'm very interested in the Rythmik F12 because of it's reduced girthyness. Anyone have any thoughts on how this sub compares to the FV12? Different price, sealed enclosure, different driver material. What kind of performance should I expect? I'm particularly interested in direct comparisons between the FV12 and the F12, since it is looking more and more like this is where I will end-up. It's probably also the only sub that I MIGHT physically be able to fit 2 of in my room without using it as furniture and allow GranteedEV's mind to be put at ease

The main thing to realize, is that the major tradeoff of going from vented to sealed is at the bottom of the passband (max SPL below 35hz). Now i'm sure a driver optimized for sealed will compensate a bit (which is why it costs more i'd assume) by having more throw etc. If you had to get down to it, the FV12 might have a bit more output in the 20hz to 30hz region which is mostly movie/earthquake bass. However returning back to the relatively small dimensions of the room, you will also benefit from pressure vessel gain in this same frequency region - essentially compensating for the drawbacks of the sealed alignment. It's actually possible that the F12 will have more output in the teen frequencies than the FV12, because of the more gentle assumed rolloff. So you could have more that "can't hear it" pants-shaking bass. Your small room is your best friend. If you're willing to spend the extra money for the F12s, and the small size allows you to get two, then yes, absolutely, go that route. Two will get you much more even response in the midbass and overall more musical tightness, and even for movies a better sweet spot and more definition.

I was also hoping I could get some clarification on what "low end boost" is.

Transducers are inherently inefficient. Let's say an F12 is flat down to 40hz. Let's say it's 85db sensitive. That means with 50w input, from 40hz to 80hz outdoors it'll produce 102db SPL @ 1m. However below 40hz (not exactly; i'm just guessing here), being sealed it will roll off naturally at 12db/oct.

That means at 20hz, it's only 73db sensitive. That same 50w input will only net you 90db SPL! That's way less! To get to 102db SPL @ 20hz, you'd need a grand total of 750w outdoors! That's what we mean by low end boost. At low frequencies, there's boost (more power) to get the response flat.

Bear in mind that it's not that bad indoors, thanks to the aformentioned pressure vessel gain. For all we know, you get 12db of free boost just from your ROOM at 20hz!! That's why sealed + small rooms is a great match. Sealed + large rooms can be very inefficient and takes some serious capability (like my 18", 9 cu ft monster ) - vented is more forgiving because at least down to its "tuning frequency" the port will improve efficiency (but roll off twice as fast below the tuning frequency - 24db/oct).

Lastly, any comments on the receiver in all this? I'm hoping it's at least adequate for what I am trying to, especially since I am just looking for good sound and not something that is sentient and contains a CPU that is a neural net processor/learning computer. That is to say I don't care about satellite/network/iDevice connectivity.

You picked a perfectly fine receiver. For your room, power is adequate. I honestly do recommend two CMT-340s as your front speakers though. It's worth it!!!! Save money on the center if you must. Save money on surrounds - how much fidelity do effects really ask for? But get the best front Left / Right mains you can afford!! There's some decent dirt-cheap speakers out there that will work fantastic as surrounds. Pioneer, NHT, and EMP all have some inexpensive speakers you should give serious though.

 

[Lordhumungus]

Back again! From the recommendations in this thread as well as comments from Dave at Ascend I'm changing gears entirely and deciding to go with Ascend speakers (looking at the below setup). Thanks to all who have set me upon the path of righteousness

I do have a couple of reservations however. I'm vaguely considering trying to get the 340SE mains as well, but I have two big concerns about this. Number one is size and placement. They are really a lot bigger than I was hoping for and I would have to put them on stands which is really a problem in my room. Number two is cost. It would push my costs up significantly going this route and I am already teetering on way too expensive for what I can afford.

That being said, I was hoping maybe you well traveled folks could recommend some speakers that would be suitable for my rear surround needs to help cut down on the overall system cost, while still maintaining a system that makes sense sonically. I don't want to have amazing front speakers and rears that are absolute crap in comparison, but by that same standard I don't want to get good speakers all around if the most important (fronts) can be great and the rears can be accommodating. It does set off my OCD alarm slightly to get a different brand of speaker for the rear surrounds, but if it makes the most sense for what I am trying to accomplish, I'm all ears so to speak....

On another note, I was pretty well convinced on the Rhythmik sub, but my last dying attempt at a smaller subwoofer was wondering what the thoughts are on the SVS SB12-NSD, specifically as it relates to the rest of this setup.

Receiver - Yamaha RX-A800
Front - Ascend 170SE
Center - Ascend 340SE
Rear - Ascend 170SE
Subwoofer - Rhythmik FV12

 

[GranteedEV]

If you take the center speaker out of the equation, that's money that can go to the left and right. do you truly honestly need a center? I bought a center and ended up removing it from my system because it did more harm than good. Now all the center channel information is still there but spans the whole TV screen instead of coming from a tiny point underneath it and giving itself away - to my ears more natural.

Perhaps even consider tower speakers...

http://www.emptek.com/e55ti_clearance.php

here is a review:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/emptek-e55ti

As for surrounds..I would get these as surrounds:

Pioneer SP-BS41-LR loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

As far as perfect matching, do this: have someone talk to you. Now turn 90 degrees left. do they sound the same? Now turn 90 degrees left again to face away from them. do they sound the same?

Even if you had pefect matching speakers all around, your hearing mechanisms wouldn't hear the same thing.

That said, nothing's wrong with Ascend 170s or EMP e5Bis as surrounds. It's just about what you're willing to pay for and whether it's worth it to you or not.

 

[zieglj01]

On another note, I was pretty well convinced on the Rhythmik sub, but my last dying attempt at a smaller subwoofer was wondering what the thoughts are on the SVS SB12-NSD, specifically as it relates to the rest of this setup.

Receiver - Yamaha RX-A800
Front - Ascend 170SE
Center - Ascend 340SE
Rear - Ascend 170SE
Subwoofer - Rhythmik FV12

For your size room, the 170SE will work - the SVS sub will work in
your room also. The EMP bookshelf can make good surrounds.
And, even this Infinity Primus speaker will work.
Infinity
Infinity Primus® P153 Bookshelf speaker at Crutchfield.com

 

[Lordhumungus]

The deal I had worked out for the used Ascend 340SE's fell through (or so I thought), so I decided to take the plunge on the EMP Tek e55ti towers that were on clearance. The Ascend guy contacted me this morning to let me know that they were in fact still available. I think I'm going to stick with the EMP Tek's, but my fingers are crossed that I am making a good decision.

It's been interesting watching my own internal change of method from when I started. I was originally very concerned with size of speaker, wanting to keep it to an average bookshelf size, but at some point I realized that there would be a lot of f'ing around trying to wall mount them in a way that makes sense. To think that 6 months ago when I started this journey I was seriously considering Energy Take Classic/RC Micro's is pretty insane.

I also picked up the Infinity Primus P153 bookshelves for my rear surrounds because they were on-sale for $50 each at Newegg. I figured that, plus the fact that they are front ported and will be easier to wall mount would make them the best choice for what I am trying to do. They were also cheap enough that if I don't like them, I won't mind replacing them soon.

I think for the time being I am going to give this system a go without a center to see how I like it. I'm hoping at some point though EMP Tek will have a b-stock/clearance of the e56ci center. $420 for just the center is a bit hard to swallow when I paid less for both tower speakers.

In the meantime, I'm having a hard time waiting for everything to ship out, it's been bad enough staring at my disconnected receiver for like 3 months.

 

[zieglj01]

Thanks for checking back - have fun.