Figuring out how to properly set up my system as 8.1

[Klipschhead302]

8.1 you say! Yep, my living room as 15x15 with windows butted up against the side wall front and rear. As configured right now the system is set up 6.1, that center rear channel is considerd a single surround back channel and the others are surrounds with the remaining as pictured in the 2nd picture. With front wide or height I get 8.1.

I have zero room to do 2 surrounds and 2 surround back channels without the wife going crazy (I tried, go try herding cats, that will be easier!) so back when I set this version of the HT up my SR5003 had an option for this single surround back feature as well. Believe it or not it sounds very good, optimal, no, wife friendly, yes, wife friendly good, unhappy wife bad.... you single guys will learn very quickly after you get married.

Continued below the first picture.

(this is a 6 or 7 year old picture, I keep forgetting to take a new one but the speakers are in the same place)

On to the front side of things, I really want to go with front height or wide speakers and I thought about using RB-81's or RP-160M's mounted above the mains, look at the picture below and you can see how the wife has me in a pinch. She wanted access to as many DVD's as possible, so I installed those Ikea DVD racks on the wall, made her very happy, made it more difficult to install height speakers.

It also makes it more difficult to mount front wide speakers for obvious reasons leaving me I think only with the option for bookshelf speakers mounted above the TV to both sides, again, not optimal but possible OR, am I better off putting them on adjustable height stands on top of the subwoofers and using them as front wide speakers. I'm all over the place with this...

Continued below...

(Ignore the lousy TV picture, it was paused...the Samsung 8000 series has an awesome picture)

As pictured below, the Front Height/Wide speakers are one in the same connection wise, so my conundrum is first, do I need to use such stout bookshelf speakers that will admittedly be difficult at best to mount on the wall above the TV or should I go easy and get adjustable stands and put them as front wides on top of the subwoofers? Should I buy smaller models, which I think won't match nearly as well being so small, the RB-81's use the same horn tweeter and woofer as the RF-82's so are a closer timber match, the RP-160M's are close, anything smaller, will sound different, no?

Also, last, I can get RP-160M's for over $100.00 less than older RB-81's, even used...

I'm open to ideas, I know, buy a bigger house... I wish.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Hmmmm how about wall mounting the RP-140SA's on each side above the TV? Spending $500.00 which is above the budget but these are wall mountable...

 

[Klipschhead302]

Crickets...

 

[TheWarrior]

@Klipschhead302 Apparently I'm the only who cares!! Lol!

First, those pictures make your dimensions look much smaller than the 15'x15' you indicated. Particularly the TV wall.

Regardless, lets start with the front. If you listen in 2ch, can you hear a separate L + R speaker, or one stereo image? I suspect those towers are far too close together!

That front left sub is being asked to achieve corner loaded room gain, from glass! This is a huge compromise, I urge you to relocate that thing!

Is there space between the couch and the rear wall? Can't tell. Your surrounds will sound much better if there is!

Is this the space you and I discussed with your dual sub project? Or do you have another set up? And how are those coming, BTW?

And I have found the cure to Spouse Approval: show them the best sound quality they've ever heard, and suddenly, those ridiculous black boxes become necessary!

 

[Klipschhead302]

@Klipschhead302 Apparently I'm the only who cares!! Lol!

I'm an impatient retch... what can I say.

First, those pictures make your dimensions look much smaller than the 15'x15' you indicated. Particularly the TV wall.

I admit, I'm going by memory, plus there is A LOT of stuff in the room, I'll verify and post back.

Regardless, lets start with the front. If you listen in 2ch, can you hear a separate L + R speaker, or one stereo image? I suspect those towers are far too close together!

That front left sub is being asked to achieve corner loaded room gain, from glass! This is a huge compromise, I urge you to relocate that thing!

Keep in mind there is a wife, I have gone over the edge discussing speaker placement with her so having said that, I tried placing the RF-82's where the subs are toed in towards the listening positions on the back recliners. This placed the subs on each side of the fake fireplace, which resulted in a wife who would sooner rid the entire room of HT gear than have those monsters sticking out.

So, happy wife, happy life, subwoofer placed in corner where there are two windows. By toeing the sub like it is, the boom was reduced and believe it or not, those RF-82's image very well where they are, had they been speakers lacking horns, I doubt I would have been happy with how they sound, in this case, imaging is very good, optimal, unlikely, none of this room is optimal.

Is there space between the couch and the rear wall? Can't tell. Your surrounds will sound much better if there is!

Agh... another sore point, nope, no space between the recliners and the wall, I'll give you one guess why, if you can go to a place that has 10 cats, herd them all into the same space, you can have a shot at arguing speaker placement with the wife.

Is this the space you and I discussed with your dual sub project? Or do you have another set up? And how are those coming, BTW?

Yep, this is the space, I'm still waiting on Mark Seaton to give the word that he has amplifiers... I have the cash in hand to buy them and would love to pick them up.

And I have found the cure to Spouse Approval: show them the best sound quality they've ever heard, and suddenly, those ridiculous black boxes become necessary!

My wife was very happy with the AM radio she had in her car when I met her, high quality audio for her means nothing, she would be just as happy listening to the speakers built into the LCD TV.

So, she is on board with height/wide speakers up front, the back of the room, I'm saving for after she hears how well the front does, maybe then I can get her to budge a bit on the back of the room.

I know this, the Marantz engineer that designed their AVR's so that a surround back channel can be used as a central single back channel, is or was married and had the same issues because he has saved my bacon by allowing for this!

 

[GO-NAD!]

Please forgive me if I sound blunt, but I don't think I'd bother with more speakers until/unless I could get that couch away from the rear wall. When the listening position is up against a rear wall like that, it's murder on sound quality. I understand that your wife is against it, but maybe you could suggest an experiment? Move the couch to about 10 feet from the front wall, recalibrate and have your wife listen. I'm certain she won't be able to deny the improvement in SQ. You have nothing to lose in trying. Plus, you're awfully far from your display. My couch is 12 feet from my projector screen and it's a perfect distance.

Of course, everyone has an opinion. And, opinions are like butts - everyone has one and everyone else's stinks.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Please forgive me if I sound blunt, but I don't think I'd bother with more speakers until/unless I could get that couch away from the rear wall. When the listening position is up against a rear wall like that, it's murder on sound quality. I understand that your wife is against it, but maybe you could suggest an experiment? Move the couch to about 10 feet from the front wall, recalibrate and have your wife listen. I'm certain she won't be able to deny the improvement in SQ. You have nothing to lose in trying. Plus, you're awfully far from your display. My recliners are 12 feet from my projector screen and it's a perfect distance.

Of course, everyone has an opinion. And, opinions are like butts - everyone has one and everyone else's stinks.

The room is only 15ft, moving 10 puts me at 3.5ft in front of the TV besides that, moving the recliners forward blocks the only entrance to the room. She isn't open to moving them forward at all, I tried the experiment idea many times, the response to moving the couch, this very morning was "hell to the no".

Some history, back in 1999 the wife refused to watch any DVD with those "ugly black bars", pure and simple, flat out refused. 2001 I took her to the nearby stereo store and showed her a Mitsubishi 55" Rear Projection wide screen TV that would eliminate most black bars, the ones released in letterbox of course would have black bars on almost anything except a few expensive TV's made for it, Panasonic was one of them and it looked like the 21:9 aspect ratio monitors of today.

Anyway, once she saw that, she was hooked, I had that monstrous beast delivered, then came the adding of the speakers and the many years of "experimenting" and thus, we are were we are today. The wife is experimented out, so the recliners are where they will be until I can expand the room 20 feet some day in the future in which case I'll have all the room I'll need since the room will end up 35x15.

As I said in the beginning, the room isn't optimal, not really even a little however it's all I have, I don't see how height or wide speakers couldn't do anything but improve HT imaging, even if it's not optimal. What I'm trying to figure out is which should I pick, placing them on stands on top of the subs (since wall mounting is out) on the left or mounting them on the wall to the sides of the TV up by the ceiling using Klipsch RP-140SA's.

I could just keep the system as is, considering the constraints it does sound good.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The room is only 15ft, moving 10 puts me at 3.5ft in front of the TV besides that, moving the recliners forward blocks the only entrance to the room. She isn't open to moving them forward at all, I tried the experiment idea many times, the response to moving the couch, this very morning was "hell to the no".

Some history, back in 1999 the wife refused to watch any DVD with those "ugly black bars", pure and simple, flat out refused. 2001 I took her to the nearby stereo store and showed her a Mitsubishi 55" Rear Projection wide screen TV that would eliminate most black bars, the ones released in letterbox of course would have black bars on almost anything except a few expensive TV's made for it, Panasonic was one of them and it looked like the 21:9 aspect ratio monitors of today.

Anyway, once she saw that, she was hooked, I had that monstrous beast delivered, then came the adding of the speakers and the many years of "experimenting" and thus, we are were we are today. The wife is experimented out, so the recliners are where they will be until I can expand the room 20 feet some day in the future in which case I'll have all the room I'll need since the room will end up 35x15.

As I said in the beginning, the room isn't optimal, not really even a little however it's all I have, I don't see how height or wide speakers couldn't do anything but improve HT imaging, even if it's not optimal. What I'm trying to figure out is which should I pick, placing them on stands on top of the subs (since wall mounting is out) on the left or mounting them on the wall to the sides of the TV up by the ceiling using Klipsch RP-140SA's.

I could just keep the system as is, considering the constraints it does sound good.

I meant moving to 10 feet from the TV . Sorry for not being clear. Considering the constraints you're under, I'm still not sure you can improve things with more speakers, but more knowledgeable members than I might be able to help.

 

[Klipschhead302]

I meant moving to 10 feet from the TV . Sorry for not being clear. Considering the constraints you're under, I'm still not sure you can improve things with more speakers, but more knowledgeable members than I might be able to help.

She won't let me move them an inch. I can't disagree with you regarding more speakers, I'm just making a hopeful assumption.

 

[TheWarrior]

You've got speakers next to your head that have to be turned down to a volume in which no dynamic characteristic of any speaker could be heard.

If you want better sound, just get a quality two channel setup cause your wife will love the reduction in black boxes, anyway! Your receiver will likely be more than adequate to power most towers available to 'safe' listening levels.

If surrounds are missed, then in the future, I would recommend using only two for a 5.1(or multiple subs ;-) Use a design that best fits the close listening distance.

Very few people have the luxury of a dedicated theater. We all have compromised somewhere! And I think for you it is to reduce the number of speakers, but thereby, increase the quality of them. As good of a deal as RF82's are (or were) there's still a lot more you're not hearing!

 

[GO-NAD!]

How about if you suggest that by moving the couch forward - you could probably go as far as halfway across the room and not be too close to the TV - it would free up an area are the back of the room for a cabinet on the back wall and a sofa table behind the couch, where she can display all kinds of trinkets and dust gatherers. Might be worth a shot. Right now, the middle of the room is just wasted space - unless you guys have dance parties or play twister.

 

[Klipschhead302]

You've got speakers next to your head that have to be turned down to a volume in which no dynamic characteristic of any speaker could be heard.

If you want better sound, just get a quality two channel setup cause your wife will love the reduction in black boxes, anyway! Your receiver will likely be more than adequate to power most towers available to 'safe' listening levels.

If surrounds are missed, then in the future, I would recommend using only two for a 5.1(or multiple subs ;-) Use a design that best fits the close listening distance.

Very few people have the luxury of a dedicated theater. We all have compromised somewhere! And I think for you it is to reduce the number of speakers, but thereby, increase the quality of them. As good of a deal as RF82's are (or were) there's still a lot more you're not hearing!

I feel I have explained this set up pretty fully and your response is to go out and buy a quality 2 channel or maybe scale back to 5.1 but replace the substandard speakers I have.

You haven't heard this system and you're making the most negative assumption possible and then to continue I should replace the RF-82's because well, there are better speakers out there. Thanks, I guess? I happen to think they sound pretty good, I think it can be said there aren't many in their price range that would compete in the HT space.

I have had people with dedicated HT's in their home and a few are gruff in their love of being honest, tell me it sounds incredible for how it's configured. The dual subs slam, not boomy, again, have gotten compliments (not from the neighbors). They of course have mentioned the back of the room as well.

There is zero chance of me configuring the system as 2 channel, taking me back to how I was listening to movies back in 1978, zero. Reducing "black boxes" also increases the chances of having to argue to add them back later, it's not any positive step forward.

So, in the end, you suggest not adding front speakers.... cool. I'm not trying to come off rude because I wanted advice and I appreciate people giving it but can we stick to the topic, I am NOT going to replace these speakers, I CANNOT move the recliners forward because the wife has some say and I respect her wishes considering, plus they WILL block the only entrance into the room unless I move them way forward.

If people think the speakers need to be replaced because they aren't your cup of tea, keep that to yourself. I promise I won't look at your config and state hey you should replace your speakers because with better ones you might hear more detail, when I want ideas for replacing these speakers I'll create a thread for it.

THIS thread is asking about the FRONT of the room, NOT the BACK of the room. IF you think the front could benefit from wide or height speakers I would love to hear from you.

I already know a small square living room sucks for home theater and I have seen much worse on this forum but, this is what I have to work with until a bigger space can be built or moved in to.

 

[Klipschhead302]

How about if you suggest that by moving the couch forward - you could probably go as far as halfway across the room and not be too close to the TV - it would free up an area are the back of the room for a cabinet on the back wall and a sofa table behind the couch, where she can display all kinds of trinkets and dust gatherers. Might be worth a shot. Right now, the middle of the room is just wasted space - unless you guys have dance parties or play twister.

I honestly don't know how to be any clearer on the subject of the recliners. I just measured the room, it's 15ft long by 12ft wide, holy crap it's small.

The entrance to the room is an opening that starts from the back wall to the staircase going upstairs, it's a 6ft wide opening meaning I would have to move the recliners quite a bit forward to make the back channel aficionados happy.

I am not going to be able to do so, I have tried for 16 years of living in this house to move things around, she is not going to budge.

So, removing the back part of the room and going back to the point of the thread, IF you think the front could benefit from wide or height speakers I would love to hear from you.

 

[Klipschhead302]

I just looked at how the recliners are configured. The way they sit, they have the listening position about 3ft away from the wall, the couch pictured in this thread put the person much closer.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Oh well, I have nothing else. Good luck with your conundrum.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Oh well, I have nothing else. Good luck with your conundrum.

I have nothing else either, I didn't think it would be so hard to get input on adding front height or wide speakers...

 

[TheWarrior]

I have nothing else either, I didn't think it would be so hard to get input on adding front height or wide speakers...

The issue is that you are convinced that adding more speakers to a small room, will offer better sound quality. Yes there will be 'more' sound. But you will no better be able to differentiate nuances in music, or have better panning of sounds in movies.

You came looking for help to achieve better sound quality. If optimally positioning the speakers is not an option, then yes, I recommend you switch the whole system to a quality two channel system.

I cannot recommend any height channels as I feel any option would be a waste of your money. If I didn't care, I would not take all of this time!

 

[Klipschhead302]

The issue is that you are convinced that adding more speakers to a small room, will offer better sound quality. Yes there will be 'more' sound. But you will no better be able to differentiate nuances in music, or have better panning of sounds in movies.

I'm NOT convinced about adding more speakers, not at all, I asked for thoughts on adding front height/wide speakers and if people think that's a bad idea I'm open to listening to why. You chose to recommend removing all of them except 2, then replacing those 2 with something better because mine lacked detail (something Klipsch speakers deliver in spades, even the lowly RF-82's).

You came looking for help to achieve better sound quality. If optimally positioning the speakers is not an option, then yes, I recommend you switch the whole system to a quality two channel system.

I came in asking about adding to the front stage of my HT, corner loaded subs are in a huge amount of people's HT's, and I'll lay odds many even, oh the horror, be by a window, some in SMALLER spaces. There is absolutely no reason to go to 2 channel and if you actually heard this system you would agree unless you are locked into disliking it of course. Maybe you have the perfect Stepford wife who lets you put things where ever you like, mine is like most, she likes consideration, as most do.

I cannot recommend any height channels as I feel any option would be a waste of your money. If I didn't care, I would not take all of this time!

I didn't say you don't care and I appreciate you responding, I don't think being told my speakers should be replaced is being helpful. Every single person here could have bought better sounding speakers, every.....single.....one... you finally answered the question posed. I should not add height channels and I thank you for that.

 

[Klipschhead302]

I had a long talk with the wife, we are going to try moving the subs where the RF-82's are and place the RF-82's away from the corners toed in.

This should be interesting...

 

[TheWarrior]

I didn't say you don't care and I appreciate you responding, I don't think being told my speakers should be replaced is being helpful. Every single person here could have bought better sounding speakers, every.....single.....one... you finally answered the question posed. I should not add height channels and I thank you for that.

I do not normally recommend replacing the speakers. You're right, that is totally an extreme. But given the number of threads created about the problems you are having, or advice you are seeking, a new system seemed to be the most promising to deliver the experience you are looking for. Because you are obviously looking for more, like any good Audioholic!

Thats great news about moving the towers! You will want to spend time adjusting them (INCHES matter) in distance from the rear wall, and from their nearest side wall. Ideally, you'll get one stereo image at both seats, meaning you see two speakers, but hear only one. Run stereo only so the other speakers/subs are not confusing your ears. Be sure to re-run your room correction software, and make any further adjustments necessary.

Last but not least, you anywhere near GA?