external amps really are better than the receiver amps at least for low ohms

[mike c]

during my A/B listening tests, I've always noticed that the 8 ohm speakers were always louder than the 6 ohm speakers when powered by the same receiver. their sensitivities did not matter, as per my four A/B listening tests: Rti4 vs. BR2; Beta 10vs. BR2; KEF Q1 vs. RS1 and Rti4 vs. RS1 (all 8 vs. 6 ohm)

I'm pretty sure I was not clipping the receiver because I normally listen at about 1.5' to 2' away and most of the time, I only listen to the left channels.

I always had trouble choosing the "better" speaker because I get confused and think that the louder one was better, when in fact it wasn't.

enter the A500. this time I connected the speakers (Q1, Rti4 and RS1) to the A500 amp. and this time, no one speaker was louder than the other. and now I totally couldn't hear a difference. (except with the rti4 which is still brighter)

equipment are the rx-v640 85wpc x 2; HK3480 120wpc x 2; A500 120wpc x 2

 

[highfihoney]

YUP No matter what anybody say's im a firm believer in amplification & the benifits that come with it.Now for your next unholy act,compare 2 different amps in the same system

Glad to hear the a 500 worked out for ya

 

[mike c]

i'm gonna need some sort of switcher this time ...
it's getting hard A/B-ing these audio stuff

 

[highfihoney]

i'm gonna need some sort of switcher this time ...
it's getting hard A/B-ing these audio stuff

Agreed but it is fun trying to hear different amps in the same system especially when one amp is pure class a & the other is class a/b.

 

[PENG]

Mike, that's great if the A500 did it for you but I don't think we can generalize. Based on my own experience, it is not always easy to tell the difference between a $1000 receivers and a $5,000 separate system if you listen to 2 channel music using RTi speakers or even Studio V3 speakers in a not too large room. It really depends....

 

[mike c]

i'm not saying that using a particular amp will negate the differences between speakers.

my conclusion is just that:
the receiver amp reacts differently to a lower ohm rating as opposed to a dedicated amp designed to handle dips in ohm better.
(you know the feeling when there are two 8ohm speakers on a receiver/integrated amp on the speaker a/b connections ... and then you switch them both on, and they both suddenly sound crappy and weak)

 

[PENG]

I agree with you but I assume you are comparing an entry level Yamaha receiver's internal amp to the A500 and then draw your conclusion about "receiver vs amp". If you were to compare a RX-V2X00's amp to the A500 you may have difficulty (as I did) hearing the difference. That's sort of what I meant by it depends........

 

[Yamahaluver]

My Z9 internal amp do a very good job driving difficult loads, it drives my Yamaha NS-1000x quite good, these speakers are known to go down to 2ohms at certain frequencies, it all depends on the receiver design ultimately.

 

[morkys]

during my A/B listening tests, I've always noticed that the 8 ohm speakers were always louder than the 6 ohm speakers when powered by the same receiver. their sensitivities did not matter, as per my four A/B listening tests: Rti4 vs. BR2; Beta 10vs. BR2; KEF Q1 vs. RS1 and Rti4 vs. RS1 (all 8 vs. 6 ohm)

Normally I would think that the lower ohms would be potentially louder because it means more power. So you're saying the receivers can't drive the lower ohms/higher current to make the 6 ohm speaker louder and actually sound lower?

 

[mike c]

I agree with you but I assume you are comparing an entry level Yamaha receiver's internal amp to the A500 and then draw your conclusion about "receiver vs amp". If you were to compare a RX-V2X00's amp to the A500 you may have difficulty (as I did) hearing the difference. That's sort of what I meant by it depends........

yes, but I think it's ok to generalize because I think it is the 1000 dollar receivers that are the exception to the rule rather than the norm. I'm guessing 80% of the population here have these entry level receivers (denon 2 series, HK 4 series, yammy 6 series).

what I'm saying is that I define "receiver" as ... (denon 2 series, HK 4 series, yammy 6 series).

 

[mike c]

let me refine my conclusion and break them down, so they can be criticized point by point:

1) the amplifier sections in entry level receivers, when presented with 6 ohm and lower ohms do struggle - and using an external amp OR a receiver with amp sections that can handle the lower ohms will be better sounding.

2) I no longer believe the other train of thought that "as long as you are not clipping your amp ... you're not gonna hear a difference"
2a) the more appropriate train of thought would be: "two equally stable amps would sound the same ... most likely"

 

[mike c]

Normally I would think that the lower ohms would be potentially louder because it means more power. So you're saying the receivers can't drive the lower ohms/higher current to make the 6 ohm speaker louder and actually sound lower?

err. I think so.

 

[highfihoney]

let me refine my conclusion and break them down, so they can be criticized point by point:

1) the amplifier sections in entry level receivers, when presented with 6 ohm and lower ohms do struggle - and using an external amp OR a receiver with amp sections that can handle the lower ohms will be better sounding.

Agreed.

2) I no longer believe the other train of thought that "as long as you are not clipping your amp ... you're not gonna hear a difference"

Im glad you tried external amplification in your own system & heard how benifical it can be, more people should try things in their own systems instead of basing decisions on reading others opinions,ive used way too many different amps to subscribe to that theory.

2a) the more appropriate train of thought would be: "two equally stable amps would sound the same ... most likely"

I agree with that but only to a point,i think the amps you speak of will sound very close but not the same,there are way too many components in amplifier designs that have different values for all equally stable amps to sound the same, unless every single component has the same values.

Peng has helped me understand quite a few things about audio & i value his knowlage but i have to dissagree with him on this one,for me differences in amplifiers are not always easily heard but in most of the amps i have used there is a point with them that they will sound & perform differently,you just have to find that point to hear the differences.

Also, while using a spectrum analizer the differences can be seen even when they are not heard.

I gotta learn how to use this new quote feature the right way.

 

[mike c]

I agree with that but only to a point,i think the amps you speak of will sound very close but not the same,there are way too many components in amplifier designs that have different values for all equally stable amps to sound the same, unless every single component has the same values. ...

Also, while using a spectrum analizer the differences can be seen even when they are not heard.

I'll wait til I hear it myself before I comment on that I can go both ways on that one. I just don't like to conclude on anything I didn't try myself.

I gotta learn how to use this new quote feature the right way.

there a manual for this or something? I'm sure the forum software designer made a FAQ or something.

 

[highfihoney]

I'll wait til I hear it myself before I comment on that I can go both ways on that one. I just don't like to conclude on anything I didn't try myself.

Pretty wise I try do do the same.

 

[PENG]

I agree with that but only to a point,i think the amps you speak of will sound very close but not the same,there are way too many components in amplifier designs that have different values for all equally stable amps to sound the same, unless every single component has the same values.


Also, while using a spectrum analizer the differences can be seen even when they are not heard.[/COLOR]

QUOTE]

Actually I don't think we are in total disagreement. I never said there was no difference. I always said it was hard to tell (or not easy) to hear the difference between amps above a certain level/price point. What I don't believe are claims of "day and night" differences. And I certainly agree with you that we can see, or even quantify the differences using measuring instruments, but as you more or less said it yourself, that does not mean you can hear such differences. By the way, I like my amps too, have a few, and plan on getting more and bigger ones.