external (2 channel) amplifier vs. subwoofer

[krikri]

Hello all,

im new to the forum, and a fairly new audio enthusiast (would not call myself an audioholic.. yet...)


I have a dilemma related to the following:

I want to replace my current Yamaha HTR 4065, with a new setup.
the AVR is attached to an MA silver set (silver 8 fronts, silver center and 2 silver1 surrounds).
Im running it without a subwoofer, and im pretty happy with the bas tones provided by the fronts, that's when both listening to movies as well as music.

pls. notice in mind the environment is setup I a large room, with lots of windows behind the front speakers ( 2 foot clearance between speakers and window).

when I listen to music, some bass heavy tracks Its will become distorted when playing at loud levels ( ~85db). I love listening to music in surround format, and I noticed the distortion only happens when I select a DB logic surround decoding scheme. When I play direct the distortion disappears and I can listen at even higher DB levels. In my music collection I only have a few songs that will create this artifact.


I want to replace my current AVR with a new setup. And I want to make sure it solves this bass issue.
I'm faced with the following two options and I cant make up my mind:

1) option 1 : I buy a new AVR (model with pre-outs) and in addition by a nice stereo amplifier to drive my fronts. I hope the setup will deliver enough juice to the front to get rid of the issue.
Not being an expert on the matter, I believe the advantage here is as well I still get a nice soundstage from running all the frequencies from my fronts, I love the MA 8 sound.
second good thing is I don't have to buy a subwoofer (which does help with the WAF ;-).

2) option 2: I buy a subwoofer. Again I hope this will take away the issue. the advantage this would have is stunning bass experience especially during movies.



which option do you guys think it the best, or will tey both solve the problem? What are the pro's and con's of each option?
I listen 50% music, 50% movies.

I also wonder what is causing this bass distortion, speakers?, AVR? DB programming sw?
I was able to utilize (from the retailer) a denon X4000, which has double the wattage then my "old" Yamaha. However exactly the same problem appeared, and again it disappeared when switching to straight mode. I can't believe it's the speakers, because of the direct/straithmode non-issue, and I noticed It appeared more on one channel then the other, switching my speakers did not cause the distortion to "follow the speaker as well..

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

without a doubt - you need a sub first. New AVR will absolutely not magically fix bass issues you have

 

[XEagleDriver]

A couple of thoughts,
+1 on the sub because . . .
Without a sub most receivers can not set a separate crossover value (i.e. higher crossover frequency) for the smaller MA Silver1 surround speakers (as compared to the MA 8's up front).
- Therefore, when you select a Dolby logic surround decoding scheme and demand more bass response from these speakers, they distort.

The other possibility for distortion from the surround speakers is due to either their placement in the room or the room's characteristics. If this is so, a sub may not entirely fix the issue (sub plus adjusting the crossover frequency should help), and you may have to try moving the surrounds around a bit.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[highfigh]

I would make sure the speakers aren't causing things to vibrate. If you can see the cones moving wildly, it could be that the amp is distorting, but it shouldn't be happening at 85dB. How do you set the tone controls?

Those speakers can handle a good amount of power, even with strong bass. That is, if the amplifier can produce clean output at all frequencies and at all power levels.

 

[krikri]

thx for all your feedback so far.

some additional info:

its the fronts that distoard not the surrounds, ive set the fronts to large and the center and surrounds to small.

when i set the reciever to direct modus, bypassing the surround decoder etc... the distortion on the fronts is gone.
bare in mind its only related to deep bass sounds, on approx 3 songs out of my entiere collection.

the bass becomes uncotrolled and verry boomy, the air blowing out of the bas reflex port is Comming out in bursts.
As mentioned by the forum members i also think its a limit of the receiver.

But i wonder what the pros and cons are of the following:
Add a stereo amplifier to the av receiver, to take a way the load on the fronts or add a subwoofer.

 

[JohnnieB]

Hey krikri.
It really sounds like you're pushing those woofers a little too hard. I agree with BSA, you need a sub.
A 6.5" woofer is not a sub woofer. Just because your towers are rated down to 32hz, doesn't mean they hit that freq with the same authority as higher freq. It also puts more strain on the amp section of your AVR when trying to run full range at spirited volumes. I think you will be surprised at how much more power your 8's can handle cleanly, once you get the lower freq bass load off of them.
I love the sound of my Ascend towers too, the bass is nice and tight. Id like to be listening to that great sound for years, so i integrated a sub. I cross my mains over at 50hz. It works well in my room and the woofers can handle that freq as loud as I can stand.
As far as WAF goes, she may not want another big box in the room, but it's better than 2 towers with blown woofers.
Perhaps you know someone who has a sub that would be willing to hook it up to your system and see what it sounds like.

 

[ski2xblack]

krikri, one thing about reflex enclosures you must realize is that below port resonance the cone and air in the port go out of phase, meaning that when being fed low frequencies in this area you end up with lots of cone motion and port chuffing but no increase in output. You risk damaging the speakers from exceeding the drivers mechanical excursion limits by trying to get them to do things they just cannot do. Bass management and subs is the answer to this.

You say it's a large room, so you may benefit from a more powerful amp, but first things first-get a sub. Bass management reduces power demands for the mains, so you may not actually need more power.

 

[krikri]

understood,

thx al for the great feedback, im going to get myself a sub

Does anybody know if the MA silver has a good sub.
I noticed and have seen in the store the silver W12.
It looks great and matches my fronts nicely (an important element for the WAF).

However I'm aware better subs exist for that price point (SVS etc..) is the silver W12 that bad then?
if there is any a minor noticeable difference in performance I don't care to much, looks do matter fro me as well.
However if its a truly big difference, I might need to reconsider buying the MA silver W12.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

W12 closest svs match is sb2000 (technically sb2k has higher output and lower bass extension)
Price of w12 is $1650, while sb2000 in piano black is half price at $800.
You could literally get two svs subs for price of one ma's w12.
Two subs would provide you +3db of output and more even bass across more seats

 

[JohnnieB]

What is the cu.ft of your room. You need to add all rooms that the sub will "see" as well.
Definitely like the idea of two sub's to even out room response.

 

[krikri]

5860 cu ft.
but pls. note its a "live" room. I mean there is lots of window coverage. Sound is reflected a lot.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

5860 cu ft.
but pls. note its a "live" room. I mean there is lots of window coverage. Sound is reflected a lot.

Well put some curtains over those windows.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

almost 5k cu ft. it's a large room for sure. For above mentioned $1700 budget I would get this sub:
https://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/collections/subwoofers/products/gamma-218?variant=1107649941

It will dance on graves of 5 or 6 silver W12s subs

 

[KEW]

Getting a sub is definitely the right next purchase. It may or may not fix everything that ails ya!
According to SVS's Merlin advisor, you'll want to set the crossover at 60Hz.
At 115WPC, your Receiver is not weak!
At 90dB Sensitivity, your speakers should get loud enough with that receiver.

Try running your Silver 8's set to small with the 60Hz crossover in place (I assume you can set manually). If it gets loud enough and you don't hear any offending noises, a sub should be your total solution. If you do hear offending noises, try to define it as best you can (should be easier to hear what is happening at the higher frequency). Let us know!

For better value, take a look at the SB-13Ultra from SVS, Hsu ULS-15, or the Rythmik F15HP. These are fairly compact and good performers. If these will pass WAF muster, they would be better options than the W12. If a black sub is out and you have to match wood grain, I guess you won't have much choice but to go with the W12. (The ULS-15 comes in Rosenut and Hsu might be able to send you a color sample to see if you might luck into a match).
I suspect the W12 is a good musical sub, but you may still want for output. Of course you will have gobs more extension than you do now, but not as much as we think you should for $1700.

 

[JohnnieB]

>5000 ft^3 is considered ext large space. To pressurize that size room, for tactile feel on movie night, you need a pretty beefy sub/s. Check out this link. Its a good reference point in figuring out what to consider in choosing a proper sub for your space. Then, come up with a budget.

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

On a related note, do you have woodworking skills? DIY may be a viable consideration. There are a few people on this forum well versed in DIY.

 

[KEW]

In the vein of JohnnieB's post, you have some decisions.
You will not get that space pressurized with one of the compact sealed subs I suggested. I made that suggestion to cater to your comment about WAF.
You will have tons more bass than you now have.
My space is larger than yours, but I am 90% music and am happy with a pair of Rythmik E15HP (which I do not get close to their limits).
I'm not sure pressurizing that room is a realistic goal. It will require much larger and much more expensive subs than you may be willing to install.
The good news is you will be much better off than you are now, even with the W12!

PS where are you located? I can likely help you if you are near Atlanta.

 

[JohnnieB]

Is anyone else experiencing slow updates on threads?
BSA's last post wasn't even up when I last posted. That's like 4 hr delay. Could be my provider.

 

[KEW]

Is anyone else experiencing slow updates on threads?
BSA's last post wasn't even up when I last posted. That's like 4 hr delay. Could be my provider.

I seem okay. If you posted around 11:45. It is 11:48 as I hit Post Reply

 

[JohnnieB]

That came through ok. Glitch in the matrix I guess.

 

[KEW]

I'll stay where I am!
Agent Smith is a bad Muther F.!!!