Explain power requirements please..

[Audiocd]

So I have Klipsch KLF 20's which are rated at 99db give or take a couple. Many people say all you need with these is a few watts in tube amp and you're going to be happy. I have a 45w Marantz PM6004 which sounds great with these. For rock music it plays them clearly as loud as I want. So if I hooked up the 300 watt emotiva xpa 2 what differences might I notice at low(65-70db) and moderate volumes(80-85db with 95-100db peaks)? Right now the only deficencies I see with the Marantz are the bass is a bit weaker than I would like but I am not sure if that is a power issue or a function of the gain on the preamp. For example if the amp had a bass boost function it would probably put out adequate bass. So my question is. If had 300 watts, would I ever even use much more than the 45 I have now if I'm not playing the system much louder? If I had a watt meter what outputs would I likely see with rock music at 90db for example (I know that's not scientific, just a ballpark venture)?

Thanks

Jon

 

[ski2xblack]

Changing from one very decent ss amp to a more powerful and also very decent ss amp won't change the tonal balance. It will allow you to go louder over all, just a quantitative change. Unless you're playing your Klipsch outside for a party or something, I doubt you would get much benefit from a 300w amp.

A high output impedance tube amp will change the tonal balance, depending on the load. If you don't want to get fleeced, this is better done via the DIY route.

Your Klipsch won't need much power to produce hearing-damage inducing spls, so tread lightly.

Here's a handy tool which will get you in the ballpark with power estimates:

Peak SPL Calculator

 

[Pyrrho]

So I have Klipsch KLF 20's which are rated at 99db give or take a couple. Many people say all you need with these is a few watts in tube amp and you're going to be happy. I have a 45w Marantz PM6004 which sounds great with these. For rock music it plays them clearly as loud as I want.

That means you have all the power you need. Reread that a couple of times until it sinks in. What more power would get you is louder, not anything else.

So if I hooked up the 300 watt emotiva xpa 2 what differences might I notice at low(65-70db) and moderate volumes(80-85db with 95-100db peaks)?

Nothing at all. Your speakers are rated for 100dB at 1 watt at 1 meter. If we figure that you are a couple of meters away, you will likely then need about 2 watts to get that volume. And that is about 2 watts for your peaks, not continuous power. An amplifier capable of more power will get you nothing at all, except it will make you poorer from the cost of the amp, and poorer from the cost of the extra electricity the thing will probably waste.

Right now the only deficencies I see with the Marantz are the bass is a bit weaker than I would like but I am not sure if that is a power issue or a function of the gain on the preamp.

It is neither. It is either that you want speakers that produce more bass, or you want to change the tone control or loudness compensation settings on your integrated amplifier.

For example if the amp had a bass boost function it would probably put out adequate bass.

Try using the "loudness" button on the front of your unit. It is not the same, but is a similar idea to a bass boost function (it also will boost some treble, as its function is to make music played softer than natural still have a natural sounding tonal balance; human hearing is very imperfect in this regard; see this).

Now, boosting the bass will likely mean that you will be using more power. But you already have much more power than you are using, if your statements about the volume levels you want are correct and you are not a ridiculous distance from your speakers. A 10dB boost would mean that you would need 10x the power. In other words, about 20 watt peaks at your proposed volume.

You will want to shut off "source direct" for this (see your manual). You can also try using the bass control instead of or in addition to the loudness button.

So my question is. If had 300 watts, would I ever even use much more than the 45 I have now if I'm not playing the system much louder?

It would do nothing at all to the sound.

If I had a watt meter what outputs would I likely see with rock music at 90db for example (I know that's not scientific, just a ballpark venture)?

Thanks

Jon

It would be less than a watt, assuming that Klipsch has rated the speakers even close to accurately, and that you are not at some unusually great distance from them. With 1 watt, you should be getting about 100dB at 1 meter, and likely about 97dB at 2 meters, though that will depend on room acoustics.


Now, as ski2xblack indicates, if you had a poorly designed tube amp, then it could screw up the frequency response (and also add distortion), which you may or may not like. I do not recommend it.

 

[PENG]

Here's a handy tool which will get you in the ballpark with power estimates:

Peak SPL Calculator

I don't know why the word "Peak". Every time I followed the link it took me to a calculator that calculate SPL obtained by inputting distane, speaker placement and amplifier power, and the SPL would only be peak if the power you input to the calculator is peak. I do like this calculator though, because it allows for speaker placement effects.

 

[walter duque]

I don't get it. I drive my amps into clipping at times. Now they put out 350 watts into 8 ohms 500 watts into 4 ohms with 3.5 db of head room. Now can anyone explain to me why can I clip my amps if I am only using a couple of watts and why is there such a big difference when I drive my surrounds with a 150 watt Carver or the 350 watt Cinepro?

 

[Pyrrho]

I don't get it. I drive my amps into clipping at times. Now they put out 350 watts into 8 ohms 500 watts into 4 ohms with 3.5 db of head room. Now can anyone explain to me why can I clip my amps if I am only using a couple of watts and why is there such a big difference when I drive my surrounds with a 150 watt Carver or the 350 watt Cinepro?

What speakers do you have, how far do you sit from them, and how loud do you like to listen to things? These are the questions to answer. My guess is that you either have much less sensitive speakers than the OP, listen from far, far away, or have significant hearing loss from insane volumes. I think the first of these options will explain most of it, though the others could be factors as well.

 

[walter duque]

What speakers do you have, how far do you sit from them, and how loud do you like to listen to things? These are the questions to answer. My guess is that you either have much less sensitive speakers than the OP, listen from far, far away, or have significant hearing loss from insane volumes. I think the first of these options will explain most of it, though the others could be factors as well.

Speakers are 4 ohms 90 db at 1 meter. Seating position is about 10 feet. Hearing loss for sure or it could be old age too. I do like to listen at very loud volumes at times when I fell like it. I just like to feel what I got under them covers of them amps at times. Now and then I do like to notch it up to +5 or +6, after that amps clipping indicators are starting to light up a little, or shall I say they go from green to orange to red. Red I only hit once and that did cost me a tweeter.

 

[markw]

I do like to listen at very loud volumes at times when I fell like it.

I'd like to nominate this as the understatement of the century, so far.

 

[Pyrrho]

Speakers are 4 ohms 90 db at 1 meter. Seating position is about 10 feet. Hearing loss for sure or it could be old age too. I do like to listen at very loud volumes at times when I fell like it. I just like to feel what I got under them covers of them amps at times. Now and then I do like to notch it up to +5 or +6, after that amps clipping indicators are starting to light up a little, or shall I say they go from green to orange to red. Red I only hit once and that did cost me a tweeter.

Okay. Assuming that the ratings are all accurate, your speakers require 10x as much power as the OP's to produce the exact same volume. You might want to let that idea settle into your mind a while.

If you want higher volume, you should probably be looking at speakers with greater sensitivity than what you currently have.

Being 4 ohms, the 4 ohm rating is what will matter (and, of course, I am pretending that speakers are just one impedance, and that the rating is accurate, the first of which is false, and the second is unknown). With your 500 watts into 4 ohms, from one speaker, you ought to be getting 117dB @ 1 meter. If you are at 10 feet, it would likely be about 6dB less (the actual amount is going to depend on room acoustics). That is loud enough to cause damage to your hearing. Fairly quickly. And then you have the additional sound from the other speakers.

The OP's situation is thus quite different from yours. He is not wanting anything near your desired volume, and he has speakers that require only 1/10th as much power as yours. Thus, he needs far, far less power than you.

Here is another interesting tidbit for you: If the ratings of everything are accurate, he can get almost the same volume from his 45 watt amplifier as you can get from your 500 watt amplifier. Almost. His will get him as much volume as you get from 450 watts. Again, this is assuming that everything is exactly as rated. This is because your speakers require 10x as much power for exactly the same volume.

 

[walter duque]

[

QUOTE]Here is another interesting tidbit for you: If the ratings of everything are accurate, he can get almost the same volume from his 45 watt amplifier as you can get from your 500 watt amplifier. Almost. His will get him as much volume as you get from 450 watts. Again, this is assuming that everything is exactly as rated. This is because your speakers require 10x as much power for exactly the same volume.

I do have to say that's very interesting. So the OP's system is just as loud as mine or close to it. I'll have to check with Alex (fuzz) on that one.

Looks like I do need more sensitive speakers. Everything is getting 500 watts except the surrounds they are getting 150 watts. But since I just got these I have to keep them for a while.

 

[ski2xblack]

I don't know why the word "Peak".

That's just how the link shows up...

I do like this calculator though, because it allows for speaker placement effects.

That reminds me, and this is for the OP, that calculator does not seem to be intended for use with horns, so you must set the placement as "near a wall" for reasonably realistic numbers, even if your speaker are not actually near the walls. At least that's been my experience comparing actual measurements to the calculator's results using various old Klipsch speakers.

 

[Pyrrho]

I do have to say that's very interesting. So the OP's system is just as loud as mine or close to it. ...

Again, this is assuming that the ratings are accurate. If one of them is wildly off, then that would change things.

There is a very, very good reason why auditoriums always use very sensitive speakers, and that is that otherwise one would need ridiculously high power levels to fill the auditorium with sound. So looking at professional speakers would be a good idea if one is wanting the maximum volume possible. Or at speakers that resemble them, like some of the higher Klipsch models.

I should also warn you, though, that going to higher volumes than what you can get now will very likely cause damage to your hearing. Irreversible, permanent damage. And you probably already are doing that with the volumes you currently can get. But higher volumes will do more damage, and damage hearing faster.

 

[fuzz092888]

Unless I'm mistaken someone pointed out awhile back that it appeared Klipsch rates the sensitivity of its speakers to include a 3db (or 6 I forget) in room boost based on third party testing of sensitivity. This would mean the Klipsch klf20's in question would be closer to 96-97db 1w/1m. Not a huge difference, but it brings Walters speakers into a little closer contention.

What I will say is that the klipsch speakers I've heard that got pushed hard started to get a little shrill and fatiguing the louder they got (YMMV) whereas the brand of speakers Walter has just gets loud without the shrillness or fatiguing top end IMHO. I have yet to hear Walters new speakers, but I expect them to be even better than his last set.

 

[Erhan]

I have PSB T6 speakers. I believe they are about 90dB/1W/1m sensitive. I probably don't listen anymore than 85dB from about 10ft. So one would think that all I need is <10W of power. But then, you look at the speakers specs, and it says it can handle 200W... what on earth is that?

I sometimes think if I bought too much of an amp (emotiva XPA-2, 300W/ch).

 

[crossedover]

I have PSB T6 speakers. I believe they are about 90dB/1W/1m sensitive. I probably don't listen anymore than 85dB from about 10ft. So one would think that all I need is <10W of power. But then, you look at the speakers specs, and it says it can handle 200W... what on earth is that?

I sometimes think if I bought too much of an amp (emotiva XPA-2, 300W/ch).

Think of headroom. While constant is easy to grasp most good recordings have peaks and valleys not a constant waveform. Crappy mp3s won't have those. I'm of the thought process that having more amp than less amp is better, even if your using 2 or 3 watts. I listen to a lot of classical music with huge swings and don't won't to be amp limited

 

[fuzz092888]

I have PSB T6 speakers. I believe they are about 90dB/1W/1m sensitive. I probably don't listen anymore than 85dB from about 10ft. So one would think that all I need is <10W of power. But then, you look at the speakers specs, and it says it can handle 200W... what on earth is that?

I sometimes think if I bought too much of an amp (emotiva XPA-2, 300W/ch).

You have a lot more amp than you need as long as that sensitivity rating is accurate. Then again, it will also depend on whether or not you're crossing them over to subs or not as well. If you are crossing those speakers over and the rating is accurate any decent receiver should be able to get loud enough to blow you out of the room even with big dynamic peaks (so long as you're not being overtly abusive). Worst case scenario, the rating is overly generous and you're not crossing them over, it would take a "good" receiver to get the most out of the speakers, but it still doesn't look like an external amp would be necessary for you given your moderate listening volumes.

 

[ImcLoud]

I have PSB T6 speakers. I believe they are about 90dB/1W/1m sensitive. I probably don't listen anymore than 85dB from about 10ft. So one would think that all I need is <10W of power. But then, you look at the speakers specs, and it says it can handle 200W... what on earth is that?

I sometimes think if I bought too much of an amp (emotiva XPA-2, 300W/ch).

You didn't go wrong with the xpa2 {a little more than $1 per watt for a/b class with a 5 yr warranty, how can that be wrong?}, I own 2 of them and had 3 at one time, I can tell you this, most everything you buy for your music system will be outdated wear out need replacing in the near future, AVR's, speakers, sources, ec., all get outdated {speakers not so much, but they are the most fun to update}, buying enough amp to power most any speaker available is a smart move, your amp will most likely last a really really long time, so maybe through a few receivers, sets of speakers, and sources, that 600w amp will be the staple you don't have to repurchase every time you want to change..

And dynamic headroom will never hurt sound quality so why not have as much as you can afford...