Everything has been shattered...

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Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
Everything I thought I knew and trusted about receivers and manufacturers has been shattered. I recently picked up a lower end model Yamaha receiver (RX-V365) for my dorm room. I didn't need nor want any bleeding edge tech in there, but I still wanted as much functionality as I could get. Looking at the manufacturers site, my model claimed to have 192/24 DACs for all channels. However, when I tried to play anything back, I could only get it to upmix 48kHz, play 96kHz in "Straight" mode, and got nothing at all from 192kHz.

After a wtf? moment, I decided to come here and do some research. Upon doing this, I found this little thread.

I don't know what to make out of this. Do I need to buy a new receiver? Is there some way to know for sure what you are getting? Do I really have to spend more money?? >.<
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
You can't expect much from a bottom of the line entry level receiver. Take it back, save up some cash, and get something better. I'd reccomend a Denon AVR-1610 if you want quality entry level receiver, the 1610 is last years entry level and it would serve you well.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
my model claimed to have 192/24 DACs for all channels. However, when I tried to play anything back, I could only get it to upmix 48kHz, play 96kHz in "Straight" mode, and got nothing at all from 192kHz.
Just because it has 24/192 DACS for each channel, which I'm sure it does because it's fairly standard nowadays, doesn't necessarily mean it can play 24/192 content as-is. Some models will accept 24/192 as input but resample it to a lower sampling rate. If it does that the information will be in tiny print or beside an asterisk somewhere in the manual.
 
T

Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
Just because it has 24/192 DACS for each channel, which I'm sure it does because it's fairly standard nowadays, doesn't necessarily mean it can play 24/192 content as-is.
Are you serious? Like, thats not some kind of sick joke, right? (On the manufacturers part that is) Whats the purpose of having such DACs if the receiver can't even play it back? That sounds counterintuitive to me.

You can't expect much from a bottom of the line entry level receiver. Take it back, save up some cash, and get something better. I'd reccomend a Denon AVR-1610 if you want quality entry level receiver, the 1610 is last years entry level and it would serve you well.
Solid advice. I think I'll do that...

But just one question on that matter: I upgraded from an older Onkyo. I heard that Yamaha had the least amount of sound coloring, and I was very pleasantly surprised to find I much favored the sound of the Yamaha over the Onkyo. How does Denon compare as far as sound coloring and such? I've never owned one, at least not yet. :)
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Are you serious? Like, thats not some kind of sick joke, right? (On the manufacturers part that is) Whats the purpose of having such DACs if the receiver can't even play it back? That sounds counterintuitive to me.
Yes, I'm serious and had Onkyo in mind. I recall one model that said 24/192 from SACD will actually be processed at 24/96. It likely has to do with other chips they use that perform some of the processing that maybe can only work at a lower bit depth or sampling rate so they program the dac to resample in order to interface with that other chip.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
Are you serious? Like, thats not some kind of sick joke, right? (On the manufacturers part that is) Whats the purpose of having such DACs if the receiver can't even play it back? That sounds counterintuitive to me.



Solid advice. I think I'll do that...

But just one question on that matter: I upgraded from an older Onkyo. I heard that Yamaha had the least amount of sound coloring, and I was very pleasantly surprised to find I much favored the sound of the Yamaha over the Onkyo. How does Denon compare as far as sound coloring and such? I've never owned one, at least not yet. :)
I own both Yamaha and Denon receivers, and I can't say that I find either one to color the sound either way, they both sound great... but I am using external amps on both my yamaha receivers.
 
T

Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
Yes, I'm serious and had Onkyo in mind. I recall one model that said 24/192 from SACD will actually be processed at 24/96. It likely has to do with other chips they use that perform some of the processing that maybe can only work at a lower bit depth or sampling rate so they program the dac to resample in order to interface with that other chip.
Hmm. Now that you say that, when you take the system into consideration as a whole I guess having 192/24 DACs would make sense as far as interfacing and similar stuff goes, as you just stated. As it has been observed, this Yamaha is a lower-end receiver, so to keep the costs down but performance up I suppose Yamaha determined that specific combination would have the best price/performance ratio... Even still, it makes less-than omniscient mortals a little pissed off. Just a little.

Thanks for clearing that up. I will be more careful in the future.

I own both Yamaha and Denon receivers, and I can't say that I find either one to color the sound either way, they both sound great... but I am using external amps on both my yamaha receivers.
Ah, external amps... I wish I was at that point. I'll defiantly have to wait until I'm out of college though. :p

Alright, I'll aim for the Denon. Thanks for the advice!
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.... However, when I tried to play anything back, I could only get it to upmix 48kHz, play 96kHz in "Straight" mode, and got nothing at all from 192kHz.
Not sure what you mean here. Are you expecting a REd Book Cd to be up mixed/sampled to those higher rates?
What sources have 192 on it?
 
T

Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
Not sure what you mean here. Are you expecting a REd Book Cd to be up mixed/sampled to those higher rates?
What sources have 192 on it?
I only have one 96kHz source at the moment. As far as 192kHz, the receiver won't accept it when I play the "test tone" in Windows 7. But no, I wasn't expecting that to upmix anything, lol.

To answer your questions about 192kHz sources... There are programs out there that can upmix 44.1/16 CD quality tracks to 192/24. I've been doing some reading into upmixing, and I'm considering giving this treatment to most, if not all, of my collection.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I only have one 96kHz source at the moment. As far as 192kHz, the receiver won't accept it when I play the "test tone" in Windows 7. But no, I wasn't expecting that to upmix anything, lol.

To answer your questions about 192kHz sources... There are programs out there that can upmix 44.1/16 CD quality tracks to 192/24. I've been doing some reading into upmixing, and I'm considering giving this treatment to most, if not all, of my collection.
And what to you think you'll gain by upmixing to 192/24. All you're going to end up with is an upmixed version of 44.1/16 CD with the same amount of information describing the music but certainly not more information than the source CD. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
 
T

Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
But have you actually tried it? It does make a noticeable difference. It tends to make the music more spacious and 3D-like in my experience.

It doesn't change the bitrate and I know this, but it does "unlock" a lot of potential in the music. Of course, it will never be as good as a native 192/24 track, (Edit: No silk purse indeed.) but it'll sound much better than the original 44.1/16.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
But have you actually tried it? It does make a noticeable difference. It tends to make the music more spacious and 3D-like in my experience.

It doesn't change the bitrate and I know this, but it does "unlock" a lot of potential in the music. Of course, it will never be as good as a native 192/24 track, (Edit: No silk purse indeed.) but it'll sound much better than the original 44.1/16.
I haven't tried it but unless I'm set-up for a DBT test, I won't bother. There are two reasons why I think you maybe noticing a difference. There is some interpelation done by the s/w that adds extra bits or your mind is fooling your ears into hearing it as better. I'm not saying your going mad/crazy. Its a phonemna of us humans. Auditory memory is a human's weaker abilities. Also, preconceptions that each one of hold towards what is being listened to also comes into play and distorts what we hear. :)
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
It doesn't change the bitrate and I know this, but it does "unlock" a lot of potential in the music. Of course, it will never be as good as a native 192/24 track, (Edit: No silk purse indeed.) but it'll sound much better than the original 44.1/16.
There is no hidden potential to be unlocked. You'll have a much larger file with essentially the same information as before.

Increasing the bit depth does nothing but use more bits - the value of the sample stays the same. Resampling at a higher rate involves interpolation or intelligent 'guesses' to add more sample values between the existing ones.

Think about scaling a 480i video signal to 1080p - does the image get 'better'?
 
T

Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
Let me start by saying I'm not an audio purest. I believe is doing whatever is necessary to achieve the best possible sound, even if it means DSP, upmixing/upscaling, or whatever. That being said, let me break down your posts and answer them piece-by-piece. This is getting interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

There are two reasons why I think you maybe noticing a difference. There is some interpelation done by the s/w that adds extra bits or your mind is fooling your ears into hearing it as better. Auditory memory is a human's weaker abilities. Also, preconceptions that each one of hold towards what is being listened to also comes into play and distorts what we hear. :)
I'm aware of the weaker aspects of auditory memory in humans, but everything is relative, is it not? Especially for one as proficient in the audio world as I'm sure you are, you probably know this truth better than anyone. Taste is something that cannot be recommended-- As they say, "to each his own." If it sounds better to me, is that a problem?

I'm not saying your going mad/crazy. Its a phonemna of us humans.
I appreciate your saying this, lol. It made me smile. :)

There is no hidden potential to be unlocked. You'll have a much larger file with essentially the same information as before.
Perhaps there is no hidden potential, you may be correct on that. However, space isn't a problem for me in the slightest, so either way, I don't loose. :) I currently have over 3.5TB of hard drive space in my desktop, and plenty of resources to expand that if needed.

Increasing the bit depth does nothing but use more bits - the value of the sample stays the same. Resampling at a higher rate involves interpolation or intelligent 'guesses' to add more sample values between the existing ones.
This is true, I am aware of this. But even as "guesses" they still have a positive effect. Like I said at the top of this post, I'm not an audio purest. If I think it sounds better then I'm all for it. It may not sound the way the original audio engineer intended, but I have no real problems with that. I'd say better than 90% of the population does not even have the equipment to accurately reproduce the sounds anyway. :p

Think about scaling a 480i video signal to 1080p - does the image get 'better'?
Yes. It does. For this example I will use Bleach. Bleach is an anime that has been airing for 7 years now, and largely the animation style and quality hasn't changed. Other than being switched to widescreen, it is still aired in the same old SD quality that it was 7 years ago. However, unlike back then, now most of us have HDTVs, and like to watch HD anime on HDTVs in the glory of HD that most anime are aired in these days.

But not Bleach. Bleach looks crappy on an HDTV. Because of this, may fansubs have popped up releasing Bleach in an upscaled 720p version.

Now, when you look at the original and the upscaled version in their respective sizes, for the most part they look largely the same. Sure, like that there is no difference at all, I'll give you that. However, when you blow those images up into a 1080p (or even a 720p) HDTV, the difference is like night and day. It becomes so vividly obvious.

So yes, there is in fact a difference. It does in fact become "better."
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
I only have one 96kHz source at the moment. As far as 192kHz, the receiver won't accept it when I play the "test tone" in Windows 7. But no, I wasn't expecting that to upmix anything, lol.

To answer your questions about 192kHz sources... There are programs out there that can upmix 44.1/16 CD quality tracks to 192/24. I've been doing some reading into upmixing, and I'm considering giving this treatment to most, if not all, of my collection.
What is the benefit of upmixing the audio.. :confused:
If the native stream is 44.1KHz, upmixing to a higher frequency will not provide more resolution...
If the native stream is higher in frequency than yes having the capability to play this @ the native rate maintains its higher resolution..
Which would be degraded if decoded @ a lower frequency.

Major challenge for the studios is what level of resolution does the market want? And if produced/deliverd @ this higher resolution will the audience pay a fair price for it.

The real world today is that the primary buying market is less critical for audio than video, and as long as the audio is of reasonable sonic quality for bandwidth, signal-to-noise and distortion it is acceptable. Thats why there have been over 250 million iPods sold..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
T

Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
What is the benefit of upmixing the audio.. :confused:
If the native stream is 44.1KHz, upmixing to a higher frequency will not provide more resolution...
I'd like to see proof of this. So far I've only experienced that it does make an improvement on the audio.
(I'm not talking about changing the bit-rate of course. I'm talking about changing the frequency (in kHz) and the bit-depth (16 vs 24) But we know this.)

Major challenge for the studios is what level of resolution does the market want? And if produced/deliverd @ this higher resolution will the audience pay a fair price for it.

The real world today is that the primary buying market is less critical for audio than video, and as long as the audio is of reasonable sonic quality for bandwidth, signal-to-noise and distortion it is acceptable. Thats why there have been over 250 million iPods sold..
Hahahaha. I love your logic on this one bro. Well stated. Thats why there are so many iPods indeed.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
I'd like to see proof of this. So far I've only experienced that it does make an improvement on the audio.
(I'm not talking about changing the bit-rate of course. I'm talking about changing the frequency (in kHz) and the bit-depth (16 vs 24) But we know this.)
The bit rate is the number of bits per second being transmitted. 16/44.1 with 2 channels of audio is a bitrate of 1.41 Mbs (2 * 16 * 44,100) whereas 24/192 with 2 channels is a bitrate of 2.3 Mbs.
 
T

Thetwinmeister

Audioholic Intern
The bit rate is the number of bits per second being transmitted.
Yes...

16/44.1 with 2 channels of audio is a bitrate of 1.41 Mbs (2 * 16 * 44,100) whereas 24/192 with 2 channels is a bitrate of 2.3 Mbs.
What? I obviously have 1 of my terms mixed around. Whats the kbps part then? I thought that was "bit rate." (kbps = kilo bits per second, no?) For example MP3s have 16/44.1 2 ch but only a max of 320kbps. I'm slightly confused, but this doesn't change my opinion about increased sound quality.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
What? I obviously have 1 of my terms mixed around. Whats the kbps part then? I thought that was "bit rate." (kbps = kilo bits per second, no?) For example MP3s have 16/44.1 2 ch but only a max of 320kbps. I'm slightly confused, but this doesn't change my opinion about increased sound quality.
An audio track from a CD is 16/44.1 and when played directly by the player (or WAV file if you saved it to disk) is transferring 2 channels * 16 bits per sample * 44,100 samples per second = 1,411,200 bits per second = 1,411.2 kbps = 1.41 mbps.

An MP3 encoder using cbr (constant bit rate) allocates buckets of that many bits for each second of audio. Basically it breaks each second of audio into slices, analyzes it, and removes what its model says you won't hear anyway. If you're using 320 kbps, then each second of audio will contain 320 k bits. The increased sound quality comes from the fact that it has more bits to work with than when using a lower rate like 192 kbps and will be able to preserve more of the high frequencies.

That is entirely different than resampling from 16/44.1 to 24/192 which is adding samples, not taking some away.
 
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