ER15 Center Channel Build With Grills-- "Piano Black"

[skyline_123]

It’s been way too long since I’ve posted here. Two kids have diverted my attention the past few years but I’m starting to make some progress again.

I wanted to document the build of this great center channel designed by Dennis Murphy as well as show how I made the grills for the L/C/R. Obviously the credit goes to Dennis Murphy for designing them but also to ARES24 for posting what I believe is the first build. It really inspired me to complete my front sound stage.

There are a lot of fantastic builds out there that give me inspiration for the cabinets but I don’t see many people covering the construction of their grills. They don’t get the same attention to detail, probably due to the fact that you just want to get straight to the listening part. They still require a great deal of effort to build but they don’t love you back near as much as the speakers do. And if they are built, it is far too easy to skimp on the detail and kill the overall visual appeal. For me, grills have always been my “Eleanor” and I never could get them right. However, this time I switched to a thicker and overall nicer grill cloth from Parts Express and took some grill framing cues from a pair of cheaper commercial speakers I had laying around. I’m very happy with how they came out as they completely blend into their surroundings while covering up the giant buttons that the kids love to push.

How does it sound? I would agree with ARES24 on this one, fantastic. It’s a center channel though and it’s hard to get a lot of love. That said, buy with confidence. Chances are you’ve built the ER18s and know how great they sound. The dialog is crystal clear and very natural and sweeping sound effects in movies is everything I hoped it would be: seamless with effortless authority.

Basic box construction, glue only, just say no to screws. Experience has led me to believe that no matter how hard you try to cover screw holes, you will always see them. Not sure if they all do but the wood filler and body filler I’ve used in the past seems to shrink over time exposing where your hole was. Friends may not be able to tell but you will know.

I wanted to try an automotive, single stage paint and thought I should prep the box like it were a body panel. Here it is with a layer of Dolphin Glaze. I blocked it the best I could 220/320 grit sandpaper before spraying 2k primer.

Hit it with two coats of 2k primer, blocked with 400. You might have to reapply the primer if you sand through on certain areas. It's a small box, block it like you've never blocked it before.

Three or four coats of high gloss, single stage automotive paint from the local body shop. The reducers and hardeners are specific to the product so it can add up in a hurry. Also, a good degreaser/dewaxer is advised since you’re going through an awful lot of effort and money. Next time, I would put a few extra layers on all the corners first to build up the areas susceptible to burn through when buffing. Or if you’re not worried about running out of product, simply put several more layers down over everything. Three is just barely enough. In this picture I have begun the wet sanding process on one of the sides since I had some orange peel. In the end, every surface was sanded with 1500 then 2000. Remember, a lot of effort goes a little ways, so be patient.

Polished with MeGuiars M105 cutting compound with a Flex 3401 dual action car buffer. M205 polish was applied next followed by an automotive wax/sealer. I got about 98% the scratches out. Had I put several more coats of paint on, and maybe wet sanded up to 2500, I would have gone for that extra 2% or so but I had a hard enough time finding the imperfections under harsh lighting conditions. I figured where it sits under the TV and out of the sun’s light, I would never see it. Dam that 2% though.

Had to be real gingerly with the buffer on this side. Everywhere there is a hole, the buffing pad wants to fall in the hole and then dig into the edges every time the pad circles around. This can cause you to burn through the paint and expose the primer if you’re not careful. The specs of white is just dust, not primer.

And boom, piano black. At least I think. Is piano black just another name for gloss black?

 

[skyline_123]

This part will attempt to walk through my process for the grills. The one shown is for the ER18’s but the same principles apply.

Using a flush trim bit to size the frame perfectly to the baffle. Also helps when your cabinet isn’t perfectly square; the flush trim bit doesn’t care. Use this opportunity to match drill your speaker mounting hardware.

It got a little tricky here for me but I just wanted a rabbit for the grill cloth to sit in where I could staple it. I did not want to staples up against the paint.

Not shown here is the jig saw used to cut out the middle.

Stretch the fabric too tight and you’ll flex the frame, too loose and you’ll get wrinkles. My next frames will made of real wood and not MDF. Oh and put as many staples as possible.

Dun and dun.

It’s been a long time coming but it’s finally done. Although I really need to refinish those ER18s with the single stage paint for it to really match.

 

[ARES24]

Looks great! Superb job!

 

[skyline_123]

Thanks ARES24. I read through your thread again and it looks like you constructed your center channel from scratch. I more or less followed the plans provided in the Meniscus Audio kit. The braces were not the correct dimension though so look out for that if anyone else does the same thing.

 

[Alex2507]

Finally ...

Man, I could use a good grill guy. I made them for my subs and just like you said, I rushed the work for the reward of listening. Your right about the screw holes too. The wood in my case ... this sounds off but my wood shrank. Now the screw heads, piled with layers of fillers, have risen to be little bumps under the paint.

That's some slick work with that HVLP. How do you like having a center channel? How long has it been in use? Do you have crossover pic's?

 

[skyline_123]

I have quite a bit of left over fabric if you want it. Or you could send me your frames and I'll put the cloth on and mail them back. Like I said, I'm a big fan of this new fabric.

It's not quite a HVLP but a "high efficiency" gun. It beats rolling on the finish if you can minimize orange peal and it gives you more options if automotive paints are a consideration.

Having a center channel is very nice. It relieves the towers of that unnecessary load and really cleans up the movie sound experience. It's not as transformative as going to the ER18s were but it really rounds out the system. It's been in use for about a month now. I'll see if I have a pic of the crossover when I get back in town.

 

[Alex2507]

Whatever that gun is the result looks good. Annunaki had box finishing down to an automotive level. I doubt he had screw issues but my problem was taking a product that had been built in a humid environment and bringing it into A/C. I think YAA tried finish nails or brads at some point.

I'm over here thinking that I couldn't ask you to do the grills for me because I know you're time is required everywhere and who the ___ wants to do all that packing and shipping? But it is six grills ... and I want to modify a couple of them. I just don't need this kind of pressure right now.

I don't want to ask you to re do grill cloth but if you feel like banging out another front stage like yours, I would seriously consider letting you.

Are you using external amps? I seem to remember you saying the 667 amps weren't an issue. I guess that means you have pre-outs if you're using the same rec'r.

 

[fuzz092888]

I think YAA tried finish nails or brads at some point.

I used nails for a sub I built for a friend. Actually worked pretty well. Zero clamping involved except to hold the piece still while you nail in place. Allows you to put the whole box together before the glue dries. PITA if you plan on a nice finish though or even to veneer over top (so I've read). This box was going in a car so it was carpet covered.

 

[Alex2507]

I used nails for a sub I built for a friend.

Rick knew what kind of girl you were when he met you. But it's still gotta hurt.

Nail holes are okay in my book. Not everything has to be a Salk or even a Del grade cabinet. If you use an 18ga brad and just putty up the hole with a wax crayon after it gets finished, you're well within that '20% effort and 80% return' realm.

I'm surprised Sean got those cabinets that shinny but that's the right paint with some serious buffing, polishing, sealing etc. I would have expected humidity and dust control to be bigger factors. That's my excuse for finish disasters.

How about the end grain? How'd that get prepped?

 

[sawzalot]

How about the end grain? How'd that get prepped?

I was wondering how the end grain was addressed , let us in on the secret .

 

[skyline_123]

My intention has always been just to use the pre outs on the receiver but I'm still just using the 665 to drive everything. I've been keeping an eye on Emotiva amps trying to score a deal on one to power the ER18s but no luck yet. It also doesn't help that I dont have friends or family nearby to show me what I'm missing and no one to really pressure me.

As for the end grain, I used a product by U Pol called Dolphin Glaze. It's basically a self leveling body filler that is arguably better than bondo, depending on what you're working on. While not all "bondo" is created equal, this glaze is easier to work with and sands VERY easy without clogging the paper. It's more expensive than bondo and doesn't build as thick so it has its limits.

If you look at the 3rd and 4th picture, you can see the application of the glaze (not primer) over nearly 100% of the box, including the end grain.

I tried to minimize the wood's natural tendency to expand and contract, which would expose the outline of the edges under the finish, by applying several coats of primer to the inside. I guess time will tell.

 

[Alex2507]

The inside of my subs all got hit with a coat of something or other on the inside too. Better Bondo was part of Annunaki's solution as well. He also wash coated his cabinets with a 50/50 solution of glue and water at some point. I can't remember if it was before or after the body filler stage. That was also on MDF so the relevance on plywood is another question.

That's a killer center for $300. What was your body shop bill? Looking around your garage I spotted the drill press and the parts washer. Nice. I guessed at the model # for your rec'r. I just knew it was after 663. I would imagine your version of YPAO is the same as mine and I've been playing with mine but the results are a mixed bag. I actually have YPAO on two rec'rs, the 663 and 2600. I guess the difference is that the 2600 lets you see and adjust the auto set up which includes Q adjustments making it a parametric EQ. The 663 which I believe is similar to what's in your 665, auto PEQ once set, can't be seen and used as a starting point for fine tuning. You can adjust the GEQ at several points which is cool. There's definitely stuff to know about Yamaha's room EQ. After a few years of ownership I'm just now starting to see what can be done. I think I might be at the stage where I figure out how to use that mic and mixing board for measurements.

I just got through checking out the S&V review for the 663 and their ACD wattage for 5 and 7 channels was dismal but good on 2 channel, indicating a small power supply but good output transistors or whatever they're called. S&V suggested that an Onk 606 was a way better choice because it had better ACD numbers but at the same time it had lower 2 channel output indicating a bigger power supply but lesser amps. The Onk also doesn't have analog audio in or pre-outs. Anyway, although your rec'r is more than capable of hitting unsafe SPLs, now more than ever you need a bad-@ss amp. Use Audiogon and run a search for your zip code. I've seen Emo's in action over at Rick's and they're great. Really. However ... I think you'll find options on Audiogon that aren't the suit case sized. So far my favorite amps have been these Marantz mono blocks. tcarcio is selling a B&K 2140 for ~ $300. I own one that I picked up off CL but I only paid like $200. Eventually it got installed in my friends system. It's the friend with the huge @ss garage, Eddie. I amp up my mains and let the rec'r handle the center and surrounds.

All this YPAO stuff is coming up because I just got through jamming 6 channels of amplification into a 2.2 rig that plays at ~ 64 db. I'm surprised Swerd is still speaking to me ... TLS, I imagine, secretly approves.

Looking at your center, I almost wish I needed a center and at the same time I'm SO glad about the center I have. BTW, music sounds best on my living rm system using the GEQ with a slight low end roll off but TV viewing is best done with the auto PEQ. It isolates the dialog at the cost of lower frequencies which TV really likes over using, especially during commercials. Our condo setting calls for muzzling advertiser shenanigans. So far YPAO and the other EQ settings have been interesting tools to use.

 

[Alex2507]

Correction: the 663 does let you see the auto EQ set up. You have to go into auto set up and click on start to see the results. It sort of agrees with my Rives disc that there's a peak around 60 Hz. I cut 60 hz by 3 db and 125 Hz by 1 db across the board and felt like that got me some of the voice intelligibility back at minimal cost to the bottom end.

 

[skyline_123]

Can't figure out how to quote text anymore...

Crossovers. Unfortunately I don't have better pics than this. Maybe some computer whiz could blow it up, enhance it, and repost it.

50/50 glue and water is also what I've heard to seal end grain but I wasn't sure how smooth I'd be able to get it once it dried. I know regular glue sets up pretty hard and does not sand well but I suspect 50/50 wouldn't be bad. The hot rod guys will typically seal the bare metal with an epoxy primer, bondo/2k primer to block and flatten, and then do another layer of epoxy primer (maybe thinned a little compared to the first coat) to totally seal the panel before paint/clear. I suspect you could do something similar to the wood after the body filler step to minimize shrinkage.

The body shop bill included the dolphin glaze, qt of 2k primer, 2k activator, qt of paint, paint activator, reducer and dewaxer/degreaser which ran about $150. I am in the middle of a mustang semi-restoration so all the leftovers will be put to good use. Otherwise a quart of each would have been overkill even though I'm not sure they sell in smaller quantities.

The garage has been in constant motion since the last time you saw it. Tools always coming and going and varying stages of cleanliness depending on how many projects are going at once. That drill press you spotted is actually a 1947 Shopsmith 10e that was gifted to me. It was the only year they ever made it because in 1948 they revised it, calling it the 10er. I'm not sure if they ever stopped producing them, I see all the different generations going up on Craigslist all the time, some new, some old. This one only took a few days of painstaking work to get the stocks to slide as it was rusted all over. It converts into a drill press, 12" grinder, table saw, jointer, and a couple other things I'm not aware of. It's cool and does a lot of different things but doesn't do any of them very well. Good enough for my skill level though.

Everything still works though and it's taken me through a couple of neat projects, including a night stand that belonged to Erin's great grandmother.

The parts washer I've been needing for the longest time and couldn't pass it up when I came across it at a garage sale. I had to piece together the drum and replace some of the hoses but I still have less than $75 in the whole thing. First order of business once I got it running was this little engine lamp I'd been wanting to build for years. Fully functional too.

So now to the serious stuff. After you mentioned YPAO, I had to look up half those words you were using. I feel pretty dumb but I had no clue the 665 had a GEQ. If you change the eq setting from PEQ to GEQ and then run the auto setup, will it change the settings in the GEQ menu? It's too late at night to try any of that but I'm guessing it doesn't and that you'd have to have a separate way of measuring your frequency response to know which frequencies to change in that GEQ menu?

I agree that I need a BA amp. I will take your advise and keep an eye out on Audiogon. I've known about that website for years but mainly look at pictures of large tower speakers I will never be able to afford. My problem is when it comes to higher end gear, it seems like there are a billion different brands out there and I have a hard enough time keep tracking of the likes of Sony, Yamaha, Onky, and Denon. It's like I need a Rosetta Stone just to read through the ads. How do I know what's good and what's just high priced junk without abandoning my family to research this stuff?

I've heard some of the Onkyo's had problems with their electronics failing resulting in the audio quitting. There have been quite a few Onkyo receivers pop up in the local ads for very cheap and it got me wondering why the prices were so low. Lot of complaints pop up in Google about that. I wouldn't mind looking for a receiver that had Audyssey either. I could sell the 665 to help too. The ad would read something like "Mint condition, kept in an open vented shelf, no kids or pets in the house"

 

[Alex2507]

Click on the reply button to quote text. Multi quote just requires you to scroll up from a 'reply' screen and click on another reply button.

You guessed right about Auto PEQ ignoring GEQ. I ran a Rives II disc which gives you a crude idea of what needs attention and the Auto PEQ tells me what it thinks is up. I left everything above 400 Hz alone and followed YPAO's lead but didn't allow it to make 5 and 6 decibel adjustments. I'm just now done tweaking every channel and now want to check the levels for the final ... final something.

Regarding good amps, just buy anything YAA is selling for 2/3 the asking price. That should take care of that.

That Shop Smith is awesome. That end table is similar to my coffee table. I used Eddie's lathe to sand the legs down to bare Maple. Is that what yours is? I gotta get to Eddies today to get a power cord for the Oppo. I robbed it to power up The Ampstrocity in ManTown. I'm going to get my measurement gear from down there too. This could be my year. The year I figure out REW. The Behringer DEQ 2496 might be too much to hope for though.

The crossovers look good too.

 

[Alex2507]

Tom dropped the price on that B&K. Good amp, good guy.

 

[annunaki]

The inside of my subs all got hit with a coat of something or other on the inside too. Better Bondo was part of Annunaki's solution as well. He also wash coated his cabinets with a 50/50 solution of glue and water at some point. I can't remember if it was before or after the body filler stage. That was also on MDF so the relevance on plywood is another question.

I was able to view the sub I did for my customer some years down the line. Unfortunately I was able to see a faint line where the seam was between the face of the enclosure on my Pythagoras build. I think the solution implemented by the OP here may be a better one for the long run. Only time will tell.

 

[Researcher]

The braces were not the correct dimension though so look out for that if anyone else does the same thing.

Hi skyline, hopefully I'll be building this same speaker soon, so I'm very interested about this issue you mention about the braces not being in the correct dimensions from the meniscus kit, care to elaborate?...thanks!

BTW you did an excellent job with the center channel, I always loved that perfect piano black finish but it's definetely way out of my league, I'll stick with veneering ...