KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I haven't seen mention and think it is brand new.

It is surprisingly expensive for Emotiva!
It doesn't look like it begins to compete with the less expensive (for 2 channels) and substantially more powerful XPA-2
I am a bit shocked that they are charging more per watt than the Outlaw 2200m (once you factor in distortion levels)!
Usually Emo is king of the watts/$ contest:confused:
But I haven't looked over the specs in detail yet.

XPA-100 Mono Block Power Amplifier | Emotiva Audio | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo a
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I haven't seen mention and think it is brand new.

It is surprisingly expensive for Emotiva!
It doesn't look like it begins to compete with the less expensive (for 2 channels) and substantially more powerful XPA-2
I am a bit shocked that they are charging more per watt than the Outlaw 2200m (once you factor in distortion levels)!
Usually Emo is king of the watts/$ contest:confused:
But I haven't looked over the specs in detail yet.

XPA-100 Mono Block Power Amplifier | Emotiva Audio | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo a
I noticed that when they added it to the sight, not sure where they are going with this one.. People ussually buy 2 mono blocks so that is $900 just buy an XPA5 at that point or xpa2 and have double the power for less money...
 
J

josko

Audioholic
Why is it that so few amps are capable of x watts into 8 ohms, 2x into 4 ohms, and (even fewer) 4x watts into 2 ohms?
My Levinson 334 claims 125w into 8 ohms, 250w into 4 ohms and 500w into 2 ohms. Why is it so rare to see that these days?
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Why is it that so few amps are capable of x watts into 8 ohms, 2x into 4 ohms, and (even fewer) 4x watts into 2 ohms?
Suppose you have an amplifier capable of delivering 50 watts into an 8 ohm load with 0.1% THD+N. This means the amplifier has to swing 20V and deliver 2.5A worth of current to the load. If you want it to double down into a 4 ohm load, it has to be able to deliver that same 20V swing, but with 5A worth of current to the load. Doubling down again into a 2 ohm load, you are still only swinging 20V, but now you want 10A worth of current. That's not a trivial request given the limits of most power supplies as well as the heat generated by the extra current flow. Of course Emo could have easily met your request by simply underrating the 8 ohm output and calling it a day.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Why is it that so few amps are capable of x watts into 8 ohms, 2x into 4 ohms, and (even fewer) 4x watts into 2 ohms?
My Levinson 334 claims 125w into 8 ohms, 250w into 4 ohms and 500w into 2 ohms. Why is it so rare to see that these days?
My guess is that if that 334 were still sold today Levinson would have to price it at $12-15K. The No 532 is $22K. The No 53 monoblock is $50K. The Krell 302e is $12.5K, though it doesn't use those fancy aluminum heat sinks. Of course, about half of these MSRPs are dealer margins and shipping cost, but I doubt we'll see Levinson, Krell, Pass, or any of their competitors get on board with the internet direct sales model.

Mainstream electronics have gotten cheaper because of integrated circuits and cheap construction, but if you want high performance discrete circuits and the same old hyper-expensive construction there has been a lot of inflation over the past 10-12 years.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I see some of the prices on the higher end amps and it is insane, good thing there are companies like Outlaw, ati, Emotiva, ect because I would have a PC power supply with a couple car amplifiers running my system before I spend $10K on an amp...

Back to the topic, I was looking at Emo's sight after I read this thread, and for the most part the power/price/ch counts make sense... Just this one does not...

If it were my company, I would throw out the XPA1 and make the xpa2 bridgeable, introduce an XPA7 and a UPA300 {2 obvious holes in their lineup}, then make an 80wx4 {UPA400} and make a 200w monoblock for around $350 or make the upa200 bridgable...
High powered 7 ch nope
Low powered 7ch UPA700 check
High powered 5 ch XPA5 check
Low powered 5 ch UPA500 check
High powered 3 ch XPA3 check
Low powered 3 ch nope
Xtra High 2ch. XPA2 check
Med Power 2 ch UPA200 {this is a nice amp for stereo}
Xtra High mono Block XPA-1 {almost check I would like to see 600 watts and I think the xpa1 is overpriced for there line, I would toss this and make the xpa2 bridgeable}
High powered mono block 200 watt per channel for around $350, price would follow the other per watt..

These would fit almost all the situations you can come up with..
You have a 7.1 and want strong front 3 get a UPA400 and a XPA3
You have a 5.1 and want stronger left right for music and a center that will keep up get a UPA200 for the rears, an xpa2 for the left right and the 200w mono block for the center...
Adding them 4 amps, getting rid of the xpa1 and making the 2 2channels bridgeable I dont think there would be a situation you couldnt find a combo for....
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I see some of the prices on the higher end amps and it is insane, good thing there are companies like Outlaw, ati, Emotiva, ect because I would have a PC power supply with a couple car amplifiers running my system before I spend $10K on an amp...

Back to the topic, I was looking at Emo's sight after I read this thread, and for the most part the power/price/ch counts make sense... Just this one does not...

If it were my company, I would throw out the XPA1 and make the xpa2 bridgeable, introduce an XPA7 and a UPA300 {2 obvious holes in their lineup}, then make an 80wx4 {UPA400} and make a 200w monoblock for around $350 or make the upa200 bridgable...
High powered 7 ch nope
Low powered 7ch UPA700 check
High powered 5 ch XPA5 check
Low powered 5 ch UPA500 check
High powered 3 ch XPA3 check
Low powered 3 ch nope
Xtra High 2ch. XPA2 check
Med Power 2 ch UPA200 {this is a nice amp for stereo}
Xtra High mono Block XPA-1 {almost check I would like to see 600 watts and I think the xpa1 is overpriced for there line, I would toss this and make the xpa2 bridgeable}
High powered mono block 200 watt per channel for around $350, price would follow the other per watt..

These would fit almost all the situations you can come up with..
You have a 7.1 and want strong front 3 get a UPA400 and a XPA3
You have a 5.1 and want stronger left right for music and a center that will keep up get a UPA200 for the rears, an xpa2 for the left right and the 200w mono block for the center...
Adding them 4 amps, getting rid of the xpa1 and making the 2 2channels bridgeable I dont think there would be a situation you couldnt find a combo for....
You missed some things. They have another line...XPR, the REALLY high power line with more coming. Don't need a bridgeable XPA-2. The low power amps are intended for use with their own Preamps, not necessarily as supplements for AVRs IMO.

XPR-5 | 400W x 5 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier

So they have a bunch of new products coming that aren't on the site yet. There was a post here with a link to their forum with info on all of of the upcoming products.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Why is it that so few amps are capable of x watts into 8 ohms, 2x into 4 ohms, and (even fewer) 4x watts into 2 ohms?
My Levinson 334 claims 125w into 8 ohms, 250w into 4 ohms and 500w into 2 ohms. Why is it so rare to see that these days?
Because it is one of those audio myth. Theoretically you cannot double down due to losses or different sorts that varies with voltage and current. If you want to design and build one that doubles down we could get it really close, or you can just publish a lower output into 8 ohms to make it looks like it doubles down, to attract audiophiles, the majority of them don't have much related technical knowledge. In pratice, it is a balancing act in juggling the limitations of voltage, current, distortion, size, weight and of course dollars, among other factors.

Also, when I see one that says 100W into 8 ohms, 200W into 4 ohms, I have to wonder, why wouldn't it yield >100W into 8 ohms if current is not the problem, so it the amp limited by voltage now, what a circle game!! Or marketing hypes?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Of course Emo could have easily met your request by simply underrating the 8 ohm output and calling it a day.
I thought I was the only one who would ever make that point.:D

There are just so many audio myths and hypes that keep going around to keep monies going around, good for liquidity enhancement I guess..
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I haven't seen mention and think it is brand new.

It is surprisingly expensive for Emotiva!
It doesn't look like it begins to compete with the less expensive (for 2 channels) and substantially more powerful XPA-2
I am a bit shocked that they are charging more per watt than the Outlaw 2200m (once you factor in distortion levels)!
Usually Emo is king of the watts/$ contest:confused:
But I haven't looked over the specs in detail yet.

XPA-100 Mono Block Power Amplifier | Emotiva Audio | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo a

Specs and measurements look good, better than the XPA's for sure as at least the specified output power is more believable base on the transformer and capacitor ratings.
 
J

josko

Audioholic
An amp is intended to function as a voltage follower - for instance a 1 VRMS volt input is replicated as a 26 dB higer voltage waveform at the output with a minimum of distortion. So I would assume that a higher quality amp would maintain this voltage follower characteristic across a wider range of currents demanded by the speaker as its' impedance varies as a function of frequency.
An amp that cannot maintain this voltage follower would somehow start to restrict voltage output as speaker impedance drops, thus increasing distortion. For instance, if a speaker is 'nominally' 8 ohm but its impedance drops down to (say) 2 ohmns at a single frequency, a lesser power amp would distort when asked to output peak voltage at that particular frequency, even though it would sound fine at other parts of the frequency spectrum.
A designer can of course maximize power output at a given impedance or maximize the range of impedances driven - it's their call. I was just surprised to note that a few decades back, amp makers chose to maximize driven impedance range, and nowadays more choose to maximize power into 8 ohms, at the detriment of impedance range. It makes me wonder if once again marketing claims are becoming more important than fidelity.
(My apologies for this thread hijack.)
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Also, when I see one that says 100W into 8 ohms, 200W into 4 ohms, I have to wonder, why wouldn't it yield >100W into 8 ohms if current is not the problem, so it the amp limited by voltage now, what a circle game!! Or marketing hypes?
I don't think its hype at all, at least not for the Madrigal-designed Levinson 334/335/336 amps, or Krell amps of any generation. If you look at the guts of these things they're clearly designed to achieve their rated 2 ohm power. Many high-end audiophile speakers demonstrate impedance of 2 or 3 ohms in important octaves. I would argue that for most high-end speakers the 4 and 2 ohms power ratings are more important that the 8 ohm ratings, so the amps should be designed that way. Madrigal was even honest enough to tell us that the 334, for example, would require ~21 amps into 120v for the 334 to achieve 500w/ch into 2 ohms, and if the mains voltage fell off so would the power. How many manufacturers include reality like that in their owners' manuals?

There are only two solutions to your quandary about 8 ohm power. Run the power rails at a higher voltage and let the power fall off as impedance declines (at least into 2 ohms), or use output transformers a la McIntosh to better load-match the speakers to the output stage. Frankly, for low impedance loads I like the Madrigal/Krell approach a lot better.

I agree that there's not actually doubling going on with these amps, but if you read the test reports on them you can see that they're actually pretty close.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
So I would assume that a higher quality amp would maintain this voltage follower characteristic across a wider range of currents demanded by the speaker as its' impedance varies as a function of frequency.
A meatier amplifier most certainly will meet current demand over a wide range of impedance loads. However, with these ratings, we're looking at maximum clean output into a given load. You can't realistically expect an amplifier that is already producing 0.1% THD+N while outputting 50 watts into an 8 ohm load to produce the same amount of distortion while putting out 200 watts into a 2 ohm load; it just isn't realistic.
 
J

josko

Audioholic
I really do believe that a ML 334 will produce 125W into 8 ohms with the same distortion that it puts out at 500W into 2 ohms.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I really do believe that a ML 334 will produce 125W into 8 ohms with the same distortion that it puts out at 500W into 2 ohms.
Certainly looks like it does quite well in terms of doubling down and that it is being limited by voltage. At the same time, I'm still uncertain why it would matter if the amplifier doubled down or not so long as it's producing adequate amounts of power into the load you need it to.

 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't think its hype at all, at least not for the Madrigal-designed Levinson 334/335/336 amps, or Krell amps of any generation. If you look at the guts of these things they're clearly designed to achieve their rated 2 ohm power. Many high-end audiophile speakers demonstrate impedance of 2 or 3 ohms in important octaves. I would argue that for most high-end speakers the 4 and 2 ohms power ratings are more important that the 8 ohm ratings, so the amps should be designed that way. Madrigal was even honest enough to tell us that the 334, for example, would require ~21 amps into 120v for the 334 to achieve 500w/ch into 2 ohms, and if the mains voltage fell off so would the power. How many manufacturers include reality like that in their owners' manuals?

There are only two solutions to your quandary about 8 ohm power. Run the power rails at a higher voltage and let the power fall off as impedance declines (at least into 2 ohms), or use output transformers a la McIntosh to better load-match the speakers to the output stage. Frankly, for low impedance loads I like the Madrigal/Krell approach a lot better.

I agree that there's not actually doubling going on with these amps, but if you read the test reports on them you can see that they're actually pretty close.
When I said hyped I refer to the talks of how the good ones double down and implications that those who don't are somehow not good or whatever. I can explain better with an example:

Compare:

A Bryston (none of their models double down), or you can substitute it with an ATI that does say 500W 8 ohms, 800W 4 ohms, and should in theory, do 400W 2 ohms as a safe assumption.

A Krell, or anything of your pick, that does say 250W 8 ohms, 500W 4 ohms.

I would think for most users, the Bryston would provide them with more power even though it won't double down.

It is like the hypes of people claiming the HK's real watts vs Denon and Yamaha's not so real watts simply because HK advertised lower outputs but typically ACD within the same price group. Now the facts are that mid range Denon AVRs consistently (may be a few exceptions but I doubt that) measured more outputs even in ACD or at least in 5 channel outputs than HK models in the same price range.

My other point is that, if an amp specifies the ability to double down, say 100W 8 ohm, 200W 4 ohms, 400W 2 ohms, then current is not the limiting factor, so is that amp voltage limited, that it can't do more than 100W. If they in fact cann do more than 100W 8 ohms, then I rest my case in terms of what I referred to as a circle game, or circular argument, or circle jerk.. Anyway my last point is more of my way of venting, having seen so much tech talks by people who really don't understand the theory behind, not that meaningful I admit.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree that there's not actually doubling going on with these amps, but if you read the test reports on them you can see that they're actually pretty close.
No argument, pretty much what I said in the first place, that one can design for that ideal and get it pretty close. Not word for word, but we are almost saying the same thing..:) I also think it goes without saying, that only super high end and expensive stuff would build in such design into their amps to avoid/or rectify to be more accurate, the theoretical losses that increases with current, i.e. lower impedance and makes it impossible to double down regardless of transformer VA rating.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Certainly looks like it does quite well in terms of doubling down and that it is being limited by voltage. At the same time, I'm still uncertain why it would matter if the amplifier doubled down or not so long as it's producing adequate amounts of power into the load you need it to.
What if you really want several hundred watts into 2 or 3 ohms? When I owned a pair of 334s (and a pair of Krells before them) I was using speakers that were indeed in the 2-3 ohm range (and sometimes below) for about three bass octaves.

What you seem to be arguing for is that constant current strategy that McIntosh advocates. True? Otherwise, you're going to end up with string output into 8 ohms, but much less as the load declines in impedance.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
When I said hyped I refer to the talks of how the good ones double down and implications that those who don't are somehow not good or whatever. I can explain better with an example:

Compare:

A Bryston (none of their models double down), or you can substitute it with an ATI that does say 500W 8 ohms, 800W 4 ohms, and should in theory, do 400W 2 ohms as a safe assumption.

A Krell, or anything of your pick, that does say 250W 8 ohms, 500W 4 ohms.

I would think for most users, the Bryston would provide them with more power even though it won't double down.
What ATI amp does 800w into 4 ohms? The 3002 is rated at only 450w/ch into 4 ohms. While it may very well put out 500w clean watts into 4 ohms, comparing it to a 1997 design isn't exactly apples to apples.

Harman isn't Madrigal, and the Levinson designs show it. A more viable current competitor is the Krell 302e, that does 300/600/1200 watts into 8/4/2 ohms. Into 2 ohms loads, and many high-end speakers present 2 ohm loads in some octaves, the Krell will have a 3-6db advantage over the ATI. Is that important to a lot of users? I don't know, but you know as well as I do that there's an exponential curve for performance like that. And the 302e is not even above the midpoint of Krell's product line.

"Most users" don't buy contraptions like the 334 or a Krell, or a Pass Labs amp for that matter. These are for people with extraordinary systems and fat wallets who (IMHO) are as enamored with the engineering as they are the realized performance, and pay to have something special, just like with a $10K Swiss watch. I don't think this is hype, it is just a classic case of over-engineering to make some particular people happy. (Guilty as charged, at least occasionally.)
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
or use output transformers a la McIntosh to better load-match the speakers to the output stage.
To go slightly further off the rails here. Given that speakers are expecting your amp to be a constant voltage source, wouldn't this impedance matching cause the speakers to not get the power distribution they are expecting? [i.e. less power from an impedance matched amplifier where the speakers impedance curve ditches than on one providing constant voltage]

I have a feeling I'm probably missing something here, but I just can't put my finger on what exactly.
 
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