Education is the only defense against bad marketing - Warning: LONG POST

captain_tinker

captain_tinker

Audioholic
Note: This is a really long post, full of my many founded and unfounded opinions, be warned.


Folks,
Hey all, I'm glad that there is a place here to vent off some steam. I have a small amount of venting to do. The last few days I have been going from store to store in town looking for either the SACD or DVD-A of an album that I have been wanting to get, simply to avoid having to pay shipping by ordering it online. Unfortunately it seems that every place in town that sells music on cd has no idea what an SACD or DVD-A is. In fact, the first place I went to, called FYE at the mall, I had to actually explain to the clerk what it was. So he gets an odd look in his eye, walk over to some discs and pulls one out, and says, is this what you are looking for? It was a dualdisc. I guess he shows SOME promise, but still... I would think that if you work for a music store, that you should know what formats are out there for when the occasional doofus like me walks in wanting a DVD-A or something.
I have to give some credit though to one guy who knew right away what I was looking for. I don't know his name, but he worked for Tower Records. I called the local store, and said I was looking for a DVD-Audio, and he said, Yeah we have a few of those, unfortunately we don't carry the specific one you are looking for though. Owell.
I have to admit also that up until a few months ago, I didn't know what an SACD was, but I had at least heard of a DVD-A. I mainly started to get interested in learning about it when I was looking for a new DVD player, and found that some of them played something called an SACD. Until then I had NEVER heard of it. I was also just reading the following AH forum:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20505

I have not yet read the article referred to in it, but regarding marketing, it seems to be a two edged sword. There is the the Jedi and Dark Side of the force when it comes to Marketing. Truthful and not so truthful and vague. I work for a very large company, and have to deal often with "Marketing-ese" and "manager-ese", think Dilbert... Mostly it's just a bunch of nonsense words arranged in such a way as to make the listener think that the person talking knows what he is talking about. Often it's just a bunch of buzzwords and jargon thrown together hoping to fool the poor slob listening into believing them. This works mainly because those listening are not familiar with either the product or the process being discussed, and so will nod their heads quietly and acquiese. I believe there is a similar trend in all facets of "marketing" out there, no matter if it is for audio/video or kitchen gadgets, cars, computers or whatever. It is a source of unending frustration for me. I am also somewhat knowledgeable about computers, and hardware, and because I am just slightly more knowledgeable out of previous experience and personal study on the subject, there are those who regard me as a "genius" though I must protest and say that I am far from it. Because of this, they trust my opinion, and take it to be the absolute truth. This is dangerous, both for them and for me. If I make a rash remark about some product, either for or against it, that could be the make or break decision for them when it comes to purchasing something. It is an awesome responsibility.

*am I just rambling, or is this actually making sense to anyone?*

I guess what I am trying to say is that Marketing in general is the same way. You have the responsibility to do what is right, truth in advertising so to speak, because if you are the one doing the marketing, you are the ones that people listen to and will base their decisions for purchasing on, because you are supposed to be the expert, and they will follow it. Most people unfortunately do this blindly, allowing companies to knowingly sell inferior products and services because they know no one will complain. Nobody knows any better. At least the thronging masses don't. There is probably a small minority that do know better, and some companies cater to small niche markets like that.

Perhaps I can give a few examples. (I hope I don't offend anyone, if I do, I'm sorry in advance, I tend to be rather opinionated) Let's start with twinkies. People love them. They have a nice bland sweetness to them, and give a quick little bit of flavorful enjoyment. Sure it's ok, if you don't know any better. Then take a quick trip to Paris, and walk into a patisserie. Sample an eclair or a pain au chocolat, or a fraisier, or something like that. I swear your eyes will open, the scales will fall from your eyes, and you will NEVER, I mean NEVER go back to twinkies again. They will become nasty to you. The same goes for many things out there, audio equipment too. I had a walkman as a kid. I had hundreds of cassette tapes of various things. I thought I was top dog. Then I went into the local Lechemere one day and found out about something called the Compact Disc. I listened to it, and when I got home listened to my walkman, and was immediately converted to the CD. I just had to have one. I bought one of the original Sony Discmen.
Then in college I was introduced to mp3 and Napster. I thought "what a wonderful way to listen to music, no more swapping discs, I can just put all the music I like on one hard drive and have it there for me to run random through!" I had no idea how it was that the files were so much smaller than the wav files I had used in high school, which took up large quantities of the then very small hard drives. I had no idea what 128k was when referring to mp3's, despite being in college, I was "un-educated".
I am finding that the more people are educated about a subject, the better and smarter decisions they tend to make. An example of this, I was at a local CompUSA a few months back looking around for something, and an older couple asked me if I knew anything about computers. I told them I knew a little bit, just so that I didn't set an expectation for them that I was any sort of an expert. I had heard them talking to the clerk and he was just trying to sell them on the latest and greatest most expensive computer system in the store. They asked me, is this computer better than that one? I had to tell them, it depends. What do you want to do with it? Answer was email and type up documents with MSWord. I told them that they could find the cheapest most ugly computer in the store, and it would be more than enough for doing that. The clerk winced. Knowledge is power. I tried to explain what each component does, and why they would or would not really need it. They left the store empty handed to go and re-evaluate their desires and needs at that point, and hopefully will go back with a much better idea of what to get, instead of just buying what is popular.

There is one major problem with that however. Not everyone wants to take the time to educate themselves to make a good decision. They want/need something right now. They just want it to work. They don't care if it is the best quality, or the right fit, as long as it works. They don't want to learn how it works, or why, they just want it do it, and now. Because of this, companies have catered to this. Look at Micro$oft, almost being overbearing in "simplicity". You don't have to know anything, you just have to mindlessly follow along and it will do it all for you. A computer is a tool just like any other tool. You need to know how to use it, and how to keep it in good repair, or else it will stop working correctly and maybe even break. Don't use your level as a hammer, and don't think your computer is magically going to solve your problems.

So I guess in the end my conclusion is that we can rail all we want against marketing and those who try and pass off crap as if it were the best thing since sliced bread (which really isn't all that great either, try a good french baguette!) but it's not going to do us any good. We need to fix the actual problem, and that is people, the consumers. They are the ones that drive the markets, if they make stupid choices, companies follow the market. If there is a market for it, they put money into it and get a lot of money back. We need educate ourselves, we need to actually care! Until that starts to become the norm, I predict that we will always be stuck with crap products in the mainstream, and only get a few really nice products, for a lot more money in the niche markets.

Am I right? :confused:

-capT
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Wow, that was a load. You must feel much better now after you got all that off your chest.

Yeah, I agree with your ramblings. I even managed to follow what you were saying, most of the time.

Got any extra éclairs left over? You made me hungry.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Gee, you talk a lot!

Jest funnin' ya. Good post.

Seriously, this is a multi-pronged issue. Firstly, we have to look atthe supppliers as the root cause of the problem. Here they are, two biggies trying to foist off on poor old Joe Sixpack, two new formats and he doesn't give a rat's patootie about either of them. They think he'll just shiitcan all his current hardeware and software and rush out to replavce it wit hthe latest and greatest hardware and software because of "better" sound (and maybe multi-channel) capabilities.

ain't gonna happen.

Secondly, there are TWO competing formats. Which one will ol' Joe spring for? Joe knows there's gonna be a loser and, looking at his wife and kids, realizes he doesn't want to be saddled with yet another.

He may just sit back, crack open a cool one and wait for the smoke to clear and maybe, just maybe he'll jump in then.

But, what they don't realize is what sold Joe on CD's in the first place. It wasn't the sound per se. It was convenience!

Well, maybe the fact that they're pretty much immune from pops and scratches records dealt with and tangled VHS tapes, but ultimately it was their convenience! Now, the kids can handle CD's and DVD's with peanut butter and boogers on their hands and ol' Joe can pretty much stick it in and get a decent result. Well, maybe he has to wipe 'em off on his T- Shirt but it's still a heckuva lot more convenient than records/cassettes and VHS tapes.

Now, back to the marketing. These hi-rez formats are, if they survive at all, destined to become a niche market, not unlike vinyl. They are going to have to be handled through specialized channels. Just like with vinyl, they will have to reach accommodations with local retailers to supply them with sufficient number and variety of titles to draw in the hi fi nuts (us) and allow them to make a profit. Stores cannot afford to sit on stock. They have to turn it over in order to live. . Unless they do that. Hardware sales will dwindle and, just like Betamax and ElCassettes, will wind up in that memory heap in the sky and all references to them will be prefaced with "do you remember..."

IOW, they have to flood the market wit h sufficient software so Joe can see it and maybe, just maybe, his ears will prick up and he'll try it but. even then, I doubt he'll see the differences as worthwhile.

No, we're not the major market those guys are aiming for. Their market sees Wal-mart as the leading edge of technology and Best Buy and their ilk as the high end.

wow, and I called you long winded... :rolleyes:
 
captain_tinker

captain_tinker

Audioholic
Markw,
I think you hit the nail right on the head. Thank you for clarifying. (and you are right, I do tend to be long winded... :eek: Sorry.)

-capT

(Look THIS one was short! Hehe!)
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Welcome to the machine.

captain_tinker said:
Markw,
I think you hit the nail right on the head. Thank you for clarifying. (and you are right, I do tend to be long winded... :eek: Sorry.)

-capT

(Look THIS one was short! Hehe!)
I think you're gonna contribute a lot, at least if you can keep the word count down. :D

Don't sweat the length. not everything can be said in a one liner, although I DO try I still do the Energizer Bunny on occasion.

Great post on turntables the other day. I plagerized from ya but, although not up to MLA standards, I did give ya credit.
 
captain_tinker said:
Not everyone wants to take the time to educate themselves to make a good decision. They want/need something right now. They just want it to work. They don't care if it is the best quality, or the right fit, as long as it works. They don't want to learn how it works, or why, they just want it do it, and now. Because of this, companies have catered to this.
This is all you really needed to write to make your point (and I certainly agree with at least this part). The bold part is especially critical to understand.
 
captain_tinker

captain_tinker

Audioholic
Clint DeBoer said:
This is all you really needed to write to make your point (and I certainly agree with at least this part). The bold part is especially critical to understand.
Thanks Clint. You are right, it all comes down to what can we sell the consumer on, and then if they buy into it, that ends up becoming the standard. As MarkW was saying, for CD's it turned out to be convenience. And now that I look back on it, he's right. That was one of two reasons that I wanted a CD player, I hated having to always fast forward and rewind. The second reason was the that it sounded clearer and quieter - no tape hiss, no pops like from LP's. But that was only my SECONDARY reason for it... Interesting... :rolleyes:

Convenience is a force to be reckoned with. Look at MP3 players, VERY convenient. I own one myself, not for critical listening, but for being able to work up a sweat while at the gym. It also works nicely as a very large USB memory stick! 4 gb Oh Yeah! ;)

But at the same time, there are those of us who have learned to appreciate the nicer things in life. Like the pastries in my first post. Sorry gmichael, I must have finished them off already - burp! HiRez audio and video being one of them. I went to the new RCWilley's store in town the other day and overheard some guy in a business suit, acting all suave and cool looking for something that will go well with his "high end" Bose system. The clerk showed them something from some odd brand I don't remember which, and I quietly followed nearby just to see what it sounded like. I remember thinking, dang, my Titan's sound better than that, and were half the price!

Anyway, I am not sure that much will change in this regard, at least not on a large scale. In the meantime, help to educate your friends and family and help them help themselves, if they are willing to that is. We can win people over one person at a time.

gah, this is starting to get long again. I'm going to finish up here. It just takes me a little bit to get to the point sometimes because I organize my thoughts by writing them down.

Oh and MarkW, don't sweat the plagiarizing on the turntable thing. Whatever it takes to help someone find something that works well that they will like. I would expect no less from everyone else.

-capT
 
hifiman

hifiman

Audioholic
Long, Long Response

The problem with DVD-A and SACD is that these formats were hobbled from the start before they even hit the shelves. There are some who would argue that these formats are still viable and offer a wealth of discs to be enjoyed - maybe, but if so, it's for people with much different taste than me. In my opinion these format have been long dead and anyone who hopes there will be some resurgence are just wasting their time. Who killed these formats? The music industry did.

I used to be an early adopter. I took one for the team and jumped on the high-res bandwagon from the beginning. It didn't take me long to figure out I'd made a big mistake and wasted money. Was this the result of marketing? No way.

Let's start in the beginning with the hardware. Just as the players were hitting the market information was coming out that there was a BIG problem - bass management. The players themselves didn't do it properly - it was left to capabilities of the receivers and processors, which didn't do anything with bass management - it was left to the players to implement. WTH!!!!!! But being that I was the person who loved technology and constantly upgraded every piece of equipment in an endless cycle I figured that things would get sorted out and my next upgrade or two would fix everything.

If that was the only hardware issue that would be bad enough, but no, there was the issue of the required 6 extra cables that I would need to connect a player to my processor. The music industry in its infinite wisdom wouldn't condone a digital connection. Too much fear that we would all make endless copies and keep them out of the loop. There was talk that something might be done about that in the future, but at the time nothing was definite. OK, as I said I was someone who would upgrade at the drop of a hat. I bought the extra 3 pairs of quality cables and connected everything together. Too bad that after all that extra expense and effort I had nothing but the sampler disc that came with my player to try out high-res music. In my mind it was going to be a small inconvenience as I wait for the gates to be opened and the market flooded with discs.

I chose to pursue DVD-A. There were two SACD discs that I wanted. Of course I couldn't get those because my player wouldn't play them. That's when we were told that someday we'd be able to buy a universal player. Well I waited...and I waited. These universal players were starting to trickle into the market. They were never well-reviewed because they seemed to do everything OK, but never anything particularly well. Eventually Denon came out with the 2900. I paid. I connected. I was disappointed. I returned it. There were too many things I didn't like in that player. I especially didn't like that it handled bass management differently for each format. I gave up.

Then of course there was the issue of the discs. I searched and I searched to find a disc or two to buy. In the beginning it was a funny game. I'd walk into a store and walk around searching for these discs. Someone would offer some help, I'd tell them what I was looking for and wait to see the blank look on their face - I was never disappointed, I always got that look from sales staff. I eventually aquired a sizeable library of 6 discs. WOO HOO!!

This was never really about marketing. Sure it was almost nonexistent, but that's not the reason for the failure of these two formats. Those of us who frequent sites like this are willing to put forth the effort and expense in an effort to try something new. The general public is not. The general public ultimately decide what will be successful, not us. These formats required the general public to upgrade their receivers to accept 5.1 inputs before they ever bought a high-res player. They were never going to do that. These players required 6 extra cables that the public were never going to buy, much less be able to hook up and operate. The general public was never going to be able to understand how to connect and set up one of these players. I mean we are talking about the same people who could never set the clock on their VCR. And finally, these discs, even if they were plentiful, were never going to sound all that great to the general public who were never going to make a significant investment in their equipment to bring out the full potential of these formats. These two formats were the last straw for me. Their existence changed the way I pursue this hobby, which is in a direction that many would not agree with. I am part of the "dumbing down of audio."

I was one of those people who just didn't understand the iPod crowd. I could never be happy with MP3's and didn't understand those who were. After the high-res fiasco I eventually crossed paths with and iPod. It wasn't bad - not bad at all. I liked it. I was ashamed to admit it, but I liked it. I'm now the owner of a 60gb iPod filled to capacity with a bit under 7,000 songs. I put all my CD's on the computer. I've sold the CD player, the DVD-A player, all my CD's (except for a few that I'm not ready to say goodbye to yet) and a riduculous number of various cables. In their place is an XBOX 360 streaming all my music files off my computer to my living room system. I've never been happier, and more importantly, I'm listening to much more of my music collection than I ever did before.
 
captain_tinker

captain_tinker

Audioholic
Hifiman,
You make some excellent points. As MarkW said, this is a multi-pronged issue. You are right that the formats were hobbled from the start. I am beginning to see this as I try this stuff all out. And when you said:

hifiman said:
These formats required the general public to upgrade their receivers to accept 5.1 inputs before they ever bought a high-res player. They were never going to do that. These players required 6 extra cables that the public were never going to buy, much less be able to hook up and operate. The general public was never going to be able to understand how to connect and set up one of these players. I mean we are talking about the same people who could never set the clock on their VCR.
I actually had a good laugh, but knew it was way too true. Most people just don't care, it takes too much time and effort that they could be spending doing something else.

You also sound like you are apologising for getting an iPod. I wouldn't apologise if I were you. You were amazed that you liked it. Well, why not? It is nice. It's a nice convenient way to listen to music. It has it's place in personal entertainment. However, I would not have sold all the cd's or the cd player. It's good to have a backup just in case something happened. (You may be able to tell by my signature that I am into backups, that's what I do for a living. :p) Anyway, if it works for you, go for it.

I know what you mean about blank faces at record stores when you ask them about the high rez discs. They always try to point you to the concert DVD's thinking that's a DVD Audio, well it has audio on it, right? :( Owell.

I guess that for now, I will just stick to what I like. I only own one sacd currently, and I would like to own at least one DVD-A, and one DTS-CD, just to try it out, and see how it works, and sounds since I do own a player that will play them all. In the meantime, I have a bunch of CD's (and yes, I still have a bunch of old cassettes that I still play once in a while) that sound very nice on my receiver and speakers.

-capT
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Uh hi,

I wrote the book on long posts. DPS-12 review hit the character limit twice!

Back on track, I agree. I had to deal with this crap at BB everyday. One guy in the home audio derpartment didn't know what RMS wattage was.

SheepStar
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
RMS wattage?

Sheep said:
Uh hi,

I wrote the book on long posts. DPS-12 review hit the character limit twice!

Back on track, I agree. I had to deal with this crap at BB everyday. One guy in the home audio derpartment didn't know what RMS wattage was.

SheepStar
Isn't that a British ship, kinda like the HMS Pinafore? :rolleyes:
 
captain_tinker

captain_tinker

Audioholic
Sheep said:
Uh hi,

I wrote the book on long posts. DPS-12 review hit the character limit twice!

Back on track, I agree. I had to deal with this crap at BB everyday. One guy in the home audio derpartment didn't know what RMS wattage was.

SheepStar

I would think that if you worked in the home audio department, you SHOULD be expected to know a little something about home audio. I am certainly not an expert yet, not by a long ways. I am pretty fuzzy myself as to what RMS wattage is, so I figured for the sake of educating myself, I would look it up. I googled it, and found something at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_Mean_Square

After looking at that second link, now I know why this guy didn't know what RMS wattage was, who would after looking at that?! ;)

Seriously folks, I would like to understand the term better, since I see it a lot when looking at speaker and receiver specifications. If someone here has a fairly simple explanation to start me off with, I am up for it. I am sure I am not the only one who could use a refresher on some of these terms.

-capT
 
C

CharlyD

Enthusiast
captain_tinker said:
After looking at that second link, now I know why this guy didn't know what RMS wattage was, who would after looking at that?! ;)

Seriously folks, I would like to understand the term better, since I see it a lot when looking at speaker and receiver specifications. If someone here has a fairly simple explanation to start me off with, I am up for it. I am sure I am not the only one who could use a refresher on some of these terms.

-capT
The description given in the link is technically accurate, and it's safe to assume that the author knows what RMS wattage means. RMS power is a definition for the average power delivered. Instantaneous power is always

P = VI

But with music or any other time varying source, this value is constantly changing and on signal peaks or speaker impedance minima may be much larger than the RMS value. RMS power for consumer audio is measured with a sinusoid (single tone e.g. 1000 Hz) source and a purely resistive load (not a speaker).
 
Tom Andry

Tom Andry

Speaker of the House
About "Market-ese".

No matter area you talk about, there is a lingo. Audio, sports, cars, houses, networks, computers, sidewalks, bridges, atmosphere... ANYTHING and everything has a lingo. There are lots of reasons for this. Partially, for the people "in the business" it is a shorthand. If we had to describe what mids and highs were every time we brought the subject up, we'd never finish a conversation. But also, people use it as a way of testing newcomers as to their knowledge. If they don't know the difference between an aluminum tweeter and a silk dome tweeter than you kind of know where they stand in their knowledge of speakers.

How many times have you been in a situation - perhaps buying carpet or hardwood floor, getting your car repaired, buying a lawnmower, whatever, and the person threw a couple of terms at you that you didn't recognize? What did you do? Nodded and tried to figure it out later, right? Sometimes they didn't make sense or they just sounded "wrong" but you didn't say anything because you felt that person might have more knowledge than you and you didn't want to look stupid.

That's how some of these companies market their products. They "train" the salesperson to use key phrases that sound impressive and knowledgeable knowing that the majority won't have enough background in the subject to object. It works. It has worked on you and I know it has worked on me.

The big thing about the specific lingo for any subject is that it lets the people "in the know" feel superior to others. Say someone lived on a deserted island and spontaneously started building speakers. When they were rescued, would they be taken seriously by other speaker designers? Nope. Not until they learned all the lingo and terminology. All of us have an area that we consider ourselves knowledgeable (even if it is just the work we do) and can rattle off a dozen or more words that are specific to your area of expertise that no one outside would understand without an explanation.

So, hate the marketers but understand they are only using our own insecurities against us. If we would pony up and make everyone explain their terms and question the validity of their statements without fear of how it would make us look, we wouldn't be taken in so much. And if people did it to us more often we would be forced to reexamine our beliefs.
 
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C

Craig234

Audioholic
Bill Hicks on marketing

I think the message topic is the best line.

But I take it further - not just knowing the products, but knowing how you are manipulated by advertising, by the catchy jingles, the emotional games.

For comic relief, watch this clip, but only if you are profanity-comfortable.

http://thatvideosite.com/view/1629.html
 

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