Dual subs for hi-fi 2ch music

[usery]

Pardon yet-another-thread on subs for 2ch music - lots of good suggestions scattered across several posts on this, but if you don't mind piping up [again] would really appreciate it.

I’m shopping dual subs for a hi-fidelity 2ch music rig as follows:

Sources: standard CDs via Denon 815, up to 192/24 audio files as FLAC/whatever thru DAC
Amp: Creek 5350se int amp, 85wpc into 8 ohms
Speakers: Nola Boxer monitors on hi-quality 2-column stands, sand/shot-filled

Music:
classical chamber, orchestral & opera
rock
alternative, all sub-genres
hip-hop, some rap
dance/house/dj & techno

Room/area specs:
18’l x 12’w with 13’ avg ceiling height (from 8’ to 16’ at peak). Wood floors w/ rugs and furniture here & there, 12' of the 18' on left side of room opens into adjoining DR (read: no reflecting wall/surface for left channel).

Budget: $1K +/- $200

From scouring all related posts I could find here are my baseline starting choices:

SVS SB-12 NSD x2
HSU VTF-2 MK4 x2

For all the reasons one would want HSU ULS-15’s, I do. But I can’t have them.

Again, hi-fi music repro across above genres is sole purpose of this rig. Especially important is ease & flexibility of inline integration of the subs with it. Suggestions/feedback greatly appreciated.

 

[j_garcia]

How big is the DR? Why have you decided on dual subs? (not that you shouldn't)

 

[usery]

DR is about 12' x 10' but not in line of fire/direction of main listening area (opening to DR is at right angle or more from axis of monitors). Dual subs for most-accurate and filling reproduction across L & R channels, sound stage and listening space.

How big is the DR? Why have you decided on dual subs? (not that you shouldn't)

 

[j_garcia]

For the subs, it doesn't matter if the room is "in the line of fire" the whole space is a factor due to the wavelengths. I'd say the dual SB12s would be a good choice here. Buddy of mine has a similar space and layout to yours except reversed - the kitchen/dr are on the far end of the room and he has dual SB12s.

 

[agarwalro]

Room/area specs:
18’l x 12’w with 13’ avg ceiling height (from 8’ to 16’ at peak). Wood floors w/ rugs and furniture here & there, 12' of the 18' on left side of room opens into adjoining DR (read: no reflecting wall/surface for left channel).

First and foremost, you need to have a mirrored left and right side for good stereo imaging and a centered soundstage. The lack of reflected sound on the left side will create problems. If at all feasible, you should rearrange the room and achieve a mirrored left and right side.

I’m shopping dual subs

Dual subs are not needed for a HiFi stereo setup. Since bass is omnidirectional, one correctly set up sub in a 2.1 arrangement can be sufficient. The primary need for multiple subs is created by poor room acoustics and need for even bass in multiple listening locations. If your stereo will have one or two closely grouped listening positions and you can place the subwoofer at optimal bass spots, get one bigger sub rather than two smaller ones.

hip-hop, some rap
dance/house/dj & techno

These genres will benefit from a sub that plays loud AND deep.

SVS SB-12 NSD

Sealed boxes are considered musical and there is some merit to the notion, but, you sacrifice output. That said, a well designed ported sub, operating within spec can be just as musical and you don't sacrifice output. With your room and DR, you should look at a well designed ported sub.

Especially important is ease & flexibility of inline integration of the subs with it.

While good subs have a crossover and integration options, this is primarily a function of the pre-pro or receiver. The pre-amp outs on the Creek should be sufficient to integrate the sub, but, it does not provide any eq or room response correction.

Budget: $1K +/- $200

Hsu VTF15, SVS PC12 Plus and the like.

 

[j_garcia]

That's why I was asking why duals was the choice here. Nothing wrong with dual subs, but I don't see a reason why one good sub wouldn't be sufficient in most cases, and likely this one as well. I sort of agree that for the music type, sealed is probably not ideal, but I listen to techno/electronic a lot and I still prefer sealed; though a more significant sub is needed to get good output and you will sacrifice the lowest notes to some extent. Most content still remains in the range of a typical good sealed sub though. A VTF-3 Mk4 would likely fill that space fine, but a 15H would be better, and both give you the ability to choose extension or output.

 

[ousooner2]

A pair of LFM-1ex's

 

[usery]

First and foremost, you need to have a mirrored left and right side for good stereo imaging and a centered soundstage. The lack of reflected sound on the left side will create problems. If at all feasible, you should rearrange the room and achieve a mirrored left and right side.

Thanks for that guidance - if I can can get it past interior decorator police I may be able to use some kind of semi-rigid folding room screen on left side, that would extend into the reflection zone for the left monitor.

Dual subs are not needed for a HiFi stereo setup. Since bass is omnidirectional, one correctly set up sub in a 2.1 arrangement can be sufficient. The primary need for multiple subs is created by poor room acoustics and need for even bass in multiple listening locations. If your stereo will have one or two closely grouped listening positions and you can place the subwoofer at optimal bass spots, get one bigger sub rather than two smaller ones.

These genres will benefit from a sub that plays loud AND deep.

The room does have semi-poor acoustics and limited options for optimal bass placement. Also smaller sub/s have easier time getting past style/fashion cop. May be able to bribe/sneak to get larger single and optimize placement - thanks for the suggestions (Hsu VTF15, SVS PC12 Plus, etc)

Sealed boxes are considered musical and there is some merit to the notion, but, you sacrifice output. That said, a well designed ported sub, operating within spec can be just as musical and you don't sacrifice output. With your room and DR, you should look at a well designed ported sub.

Musical is #1 priority, will give up output to get it - but thanks for the guidance, will re-visit the ported subs too.

While good subs have a crossover and integration options, this is primarily a function of the pre-pro or receiver. The pre-amp outs on the Creek should be sufficient to integrate the sub, but, it does not provide any eq or room response correction.

Yeah am concerned about this. Will just have to get it all assembled w/ current rig + new sub/s, listen/test then figure out next steps if it sounds suspect.

 

[usery]

That's why I was asking why duals was the choice here. Nothing wrong with dual subs, but I don't see a reason why one good sub wouldn't be sufficient in most cases, and likely this one as well. I sort of agree that for the music type, sealed is probably not ideal, but I listen to techno/electronic a lot and I still prefer sealed; though a more significant sub is needed to get good output and you will sacrifice the lowest notes to some extent. Most content still remains in the range of a typical good sealed sub though. A VTF-3 Mk4 would likely fill that space fine, but a 15H would be better, and both give you the ability to choose extension or output.

Thank you. do you mean a single VTF-3 Mk4?

 

[shadyJ]

If you don't need very loud, the SB12s would be fine. If you want some more dynamic range, I would go with dual Outlaw LFM-1 EXs, right now on sale for $600 each. The EX's actually have much less distortion below the mid 50 Hz range for the same output sweeps. Not only that, an EX gets way way louder than a SB12. They also dig a lot deeper. If you want a sealed 12 with a nice hefty dynamic range, check out this Dayton Titanic 4 12" kit. A heavy duty driver with a nice beefy amp, should have good, low distortion output above 30 Hz. Two of those will set you back $1260. They will sound great and should have a lot more headroom than SB12s.

 

[walter duque]

What you need is subs that don't sound like subs. The comment I get on my subs is "These don't sound like subs they sound so real". Make any sense or what??

 

[usery]

Decorator police shut me down on any cylinderical sub (SVS PC-12 Plus etc) - must be cube/s and <= 20" enclosure in any dimension. May parlay for budget increase [ ! ].

Now leaning towards properly-placed single sub instead of duals. Main LR listening area = 2808 cu. ft, adjoining DR = 1430 cu. ft, total = 3238 cu. ft.

Would a single HSU ULS-15 handle all that?

 

[shadyJ]

Decorator police shut me down on any cylinderical sub (SVS PC-12 Plus etc) - must be cube/s and <= 20" enclosure in any dimension. May parlay for budget increase [ ! ].

Now leaning towards properly-placed single sub instead of duals. Main LR listening area = 2808 cu. ft, adjoining DR = 1430 cu. ft, total = 3238 cu. ft.

Would a single HSU ULS-15 handle all that?

It depends on how loud you need it to get. A 20" cube can only produce so much output, you are basically stuck with a sealed 15" for the most output from those dimensions. Still, the CEA measurements posted on the product page aren't bad at all for a sealed 15". You will want to turn the ULF Trim to 50 Hz on the ULS-15 if you get it.

 

[usery]

If this was easy it wouldn't be fun.

Now including the PSA XS30 in the hunt. Anyone got any experience with them? From their marketing they're taking the fight right to HSU ULS-15 and SVS SB13-Ultra.

 

[shadyJ]

The XS30 will certainly be the loudest. It isn't quite the same kind of sub as the ULS-15 or SB13 and isn't really a direct competitor.

 

[ImcLoud]

I have played with this A LOT, and EVERY time 2 subs sounds better than one, its just the way it is... I don't know the science behind it but dual subs blend into a set of mains much nicer than a single. I know a few guys on here are saying get one sub, but if you asked "what sub to get for my 2.1 system, you would be getting a bunch of guys saying to get dual subs, weird how stuff like that works but its the truth...

ANYWAY.. I have dual subs in 2 of my music only systems and if I pull the power out of one of them it is a noticeable difference, first the gain has to be much higher {for some reason way more than double which would be expected} and the sub becomes "place-able" vs with 2 you can not tell where the lows are coming from... If you can get the SVS sb12 nsd's in your budget than do it, you will not regret it, I have them setup with a set of bookshelfs and they sound amazing... You can always return one if you do not think there is a difference. I have never heard such a musical sub and since this is a music system there is no need for an insane amount of output... I also own a pair of vtf2's and side by side even with the ports plugged I prefer the sb12 for music...

Dual sealed subs that are known for being "musical" is what you want, the sb1000's are nice, the uls15's are awesome, and the sb12's are easily the best value. Don't get too hung up on output because with 400w going to my mains the subs can still easily over power them...

 

[usery]

Thank you, am now back where I started: duals instead of single. SB-12 NSD x2 are front-runners, dual ULS-15's just too much bank ($).

 

[ousooner2]

There's a used sb12nsd in the classifieds too. Pick that up and a new one and you're good to go for lower than you thought

 

[j_garcia]

Was waiting for him to find this thread since he has the SB12s, but I already knew what his answer would be There is likely a difference in what he listens to though...

 

[ImcLoud]

Thank you, am now back where I started: duals instead of single. SB-12 NSD x2 are front-runners, dual ULS-15's just too much bank ($).

Honestly with your mains the sb12's are going to be MORE than enough, and as far as sw goes, at a given volume the are both phenomenal choices, I can afford the uls15's and still went with the sb12's {some of that had to do with the piano finish though}... But like I said the sb12's are going to be easily strong enough to fill your room with musical bass...