DSP Mini + Sure Electronic Amp, How to Adjust for Driver RMS?

Trueglory

Trueglory

Audiophyte
This may be an extremely easy question to answer, and I apologize ahead of time, but I just need clarification on what is optimal. I am new to the forum and this is my first post! I love this website and I am so glad to be here!

I'm building an active 2-way speaker using a Woofer with 60w RMS, and a Tweeter with 100w RMS. I need to know how to go about equalizing the two different power loads so that each driver is at the same loudness when the speaker's volume is adjusted.

I also need to know which amplification method I should use. Two 2 channel amps, or one 4 channel amp? I don't understand how this is accomplished in the most optimal sense. How much over the RMS should I aim for with amplification?

Do you have to pick a tweeter and a woofer with the same RMS? or do you just adjust after the fact? Also, this is for use with a DSP Mini so all 4 of the drivers will be on their own amp channels, can I adjust the output at the DSP Mini's level? And then wire the volume control from it rather than from the amps?

I know I haven't linked any of the drivers I'll be using, but I'm hoping for some general ideas on the topic. Rules of thumb. Thank you so much ahead of time!
 
Trueglory

Trueglory

Audiophyte
"The following diagram shows a typical system configuration, where volume control can be done digitally either in the source or in the crossover itself. (Note that digital crossovers still support analog input as in the diagram above.)"

So it looks like I can control volume of each channel/driver with the DSP which solves the wattage problem I think. I'll calculate the steps in dB from sensitivity rating (doubling the wattage gives +3db) of the woofer and tweeter and then adjust from there I guess. I believe that would result in tweeter being capable of more power/volume but with the woofer unable to go above 60w, it'll just have to stay aligned to the woofer's max.

That way I can set max volume, preventing the speakers from being overdone? Sound right? I hope it works this way in the DSP software.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
"The following diagram shows a typical system configuration, where volume control can be done digitally either in the source or in the crossover itself. (Note that digital crossovers still support analog input as in the diagram above.)"

So it looks like I can control volume of each channel/driver with the DSP which solves the wattage problem I think. I'll calculate the steps in dB from sensitivity rating (doubling the wattage gives +3db) of the woofer and tweeter and then adjust from there I guess. I believe that would result in tweeter being capable of more power/volume but with the woofer unable to go above 60w, it'll just have to stay aligned to the woofer's max. That way I can set max volume, preventing the speakers from being overdone? Sound right?
First of all, no tweeter will take 100 watts. It would fry in micro seconds. What they mean is that in a unit that has the crossover at a specified frequency and order the speaker will handle roughly 100 watts with music of a fairly typical frequency distribution. However things like synths, and baroque pipe organs that can and often do have a lot of high frequency energy often burn out tweeters if you don't take care.

In your active crossover all you need to take into consideration are the sensitivities of the drivers, the crossover and driver response orders. Finally remember the order of roll off of a driver, is the sum of the electrical and acoustic roll offs.
 
Trueglory

Trueglory

Audiophyte
First of all, no tweeter will take 100 watts. It would fry in micro seconds. What they mean is that in a unit that has the crossover at a specified frequency and order the speaker will handle roughly 100 watts with music of a fairly typical frequency distribution. However things like synths, and baroque pipe organs that can and often do have a lot of high frequency energy often burn out tweeters if you don't take care.

In your active crossover all you need to take into consideration are the sensitivities of the drivers, the crossover and driver response orders. Finally remember the order of roll off of a driver, is the sum of the electrical and acoustic roll offs.
The woofer's sensitivity is 90dB and the tweeter is 93dB, with all else equal, I would just need to offset the tweeter by -3dB. However, I read an article somewhere that spoke about the human perceived loudness of 3dB at varying frequencies. If I remember correctly, the lower frequencies were perceived as being a more dominant change due to not only hearing it but feeling it as well, which a microphone can't pick up during testing.. So would I want to change anything? I'll have to dig up that article again. There was some known rule that it called for, like +3dB on upper frequencies by default.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
The woofer's sensitivity is 90dB and the tweeter is 93dB, with all else equal, I would just need to offset the tweeter by -3dB. However, I read an article somewhere that spoke about the human perceived loudness of 3dB at varying frequencies. If I remember correctly, the lower frequencies were perceived as being a more dominant change due to not only hearing it but feeling it as well, which a microphone can't pick up during testing.. So would I want to change anything? I'll have to dig up that article again. There was some known rule that it called for, like +3dB on upper frequencies by default.
You probably need to change quite a lot. I think you have a lot more design work.

Although going active makes driver selection a little easier. Correct driver selection is still important. So you still can not pick driver and woofer out of the air randomly.

The thing I think you have forgotten is the baffle step. This is the frequency at which your speaker goes from a half space radiator to a full space radiator. In other words it transitions from monopole to omnipole. This is calculated from the width of the front baffle. Below this point a 6 db boost needs to be applied to the woofer.

I would make a passive model of your crossover first. This will guide you in your mini dsp application.

The other thing is you will need to place a cap between the HF amp and the tweeter, to remove any residual DC offset from the amp, and more importantly protect the tweeter from any thumps, like turn on thumps.

The other thing you might consider is using two woofers and making this a 2.5 way. You will need three amps. A huge advantage of going active is that you can get BSC right, as it is hugely affected by room and placement. My front three all have active BSC, and this makes a massive contribution to realistic reproduction, especially speech. You will need to double enclosure volume as driver VAS is doubled. This will give you are much better and more powerful speaker.

I don't know what drivers you are using, but if the woofer has a big break up mode peak above crossover, you will need a passive notch filter between amp and speaker. This is because if you speaker has a 6 to 10 db break up mode above crossover, then your amps signal to noise ration will be effectively severely downgraded, and you will hear hiss you otherwise would not.

If you are going to use different amps for woofer and tweeter then you need to check the phase response of the amps on a dual channel o-scope driven from an oscillator. You can not assume the phase angle of amps of different design will have a zero phase angle.

Those issues are the ones I can think of now, but I'm sure their are more.

I'm in the UK now, and I'm just off to drive to Greenwich to get the boat to London to see my nephew. It is a glorious day, and we should have good high water on the Thames.
 
Trueglory

Trueglory

Audiophyte
I'm in the US, on the East Coast, so I was sleeping when you posted, but thank you so much for all that you've said! I have heard of the corrections you've mentioned, although I was under the impression that these things would be taken care of within the DSP Mini rather than still using passive applications for the notch filter, but it's not that big of a deal.

I think I'll use this Amp:
https://www.parts-express.com/sure-electronics-aa-ab33182-4x100w-at-4-ohm-class-d-digital-audio-amplifier-board-sta508-(t--320-335

Here are the Drivers:
Woofers
Tweeters

As for the suggestion of adding another 2 woofers, I would love to, but I'm trying to keep the enclosure smaller + the enclosure's design is already finished in Autodesk Inventor. Each Woofer enclosure will be around 16.5 Liters + a 3.8 cm Diameter Port - 10.80 cm Length.

Btw, I hope you have a great visit!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm in the US, on the East Coast, so I was sleeping when you posted, but thank you so much for all that you've said! I have heard of the corrections you've mentioned, although I was under the impression that these things would be taken care of within the DSP Mini rather than still using passive applications for the notch filter, but it's not that big of a deal.

I think I'll use this Amp:
https://www.parts-express.com/sure-electronics-aa-ab33182-4x100w-at-4-ohm-class-d-digital-audio-amplifier-board-sta508-(t--320-335

Here are the Drivers:
Woofers
Tweeters

As for the suggestion of adding another 2 woofers, I would love to, but I'm trying to keep the enclosure smaller + the enclosure's design is already finished in Autodesk Inventor. Each Woofer enclosure will be around 16.5 Liters + a 3.8 cm Diameter Port - 10.80 cm Length.

Btw, I hope you have a great visit!
The problem with doing the notch in DSP is that is ahead of the amp. So any amp hiss is increased by the db of the peak, and so you hear the hiss were otherwise you would not.
 
Trueglory

Trueglory

Audiophyte
I just looked at your setup! I hope it gets a lot of use for all that work! It's a shame that you still have to go to the theaters for the new releases though :p
 
Trueglory

Trueglory

Audiophyte
Help needed with a different situation:

Four speakers - 2x Tweeters, 2x Woofers - 4 ohms each - All max volume at 60 watts. I plan to use this Amp: http://store3.sure-electronics.com/4-x-100watt-class-d-audio-amplifier-board-sta508

I need to power it clean so that the THD is as low as possible (obviously). I want a setup with 3+ hours of battery portability (is this practically achievable? I have space in the enclosure to spare + weight isn't really a problem because I'll have handles on the sides of the enclosure), but when inside or around the house I would like AC power to power the amp + charge the batteries. I want to be able to use the AC power to power the speakers at any time despite the battery charge. I say this because electronics that won't operate when plugged into AC (when the battery is too low) are just outright annoying :)

I've learned a lot about batteries already from batteryuniversity.com, great place! I had planned to use Sealed Lead Acid Batteries in some form? They say that 2.35v per cell is the optimal charging rate, but I'm having difficulty finding the proper hardware! (Charger)

The amplifier's supply voltage is: Min. 10v Typ. 24v Max. 30v

But the THD clean power ratings @ 4 ohms are with a "30v rail" which means I need to aim for 30v with my battery chain? Does this mean that I need a 30v charger with 2.3 amps/cell? I'm getting lost with all this.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm still in the UK. I return Friday.

Your first project is a good doable beginners project, the second one is not.

So lets do one good project first.

I will help you with some early design work for the first project, next week hopefully.

The second project has a scope beyond your current expertise and does not make a lot of sense.

The first project should be able to give excellent results. You have chosen good drivers, and this is a sensible worthwhile first time project.
 

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