Doubts about amp or speaker upgrade

[FennerMachine]

Current system: Cambridge Audio 751DB, Denon AVR 3801, Quad 21L2.

I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade speakers or amp.

Problems – lack of bass quantity and quality, highs a bit bright, some instruments could sound more realistic.

I demoed my speakers with an Icon Audio ST40 MkIII and they sounded great together, but I'm doubting a valve amp is a good idea. They need TCL and could limit future upgrades. What solid state amps would give a similar sound quality and work well with my speakers? Or should I change speakers? Budget around £2000.00 if needed.

I've demoed and/or owned many speakers and amplifiers over the past 15 years so I realise that compromises must be made somewhere.

So, do I compromise with better speakers not being properly driven by my Denon, or stick with my Quad 21L2's but drive them well?

 

[markw]

Odds are the demo room acoustics made more of an audible difference on what you heard than the amp did. Just because everyone raves about a speaker doesn't mean you'll like it. Look at how many gorgeous movie stars can't make a marriage work.

Speakers will definitely change the sound. Listen to the candidates and choose carefully.

As for the amp, it may or may not make an audible difference and, even if it does, it will be very subtle.

 

[Hobbit]

Current system: Cambridge Audio 751DB, Denon AVR 3801, Quad 21L2.

I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade speakers or amp.

Problems – lack of bass quantity and quality, highs a bit bright, some instruments could sound more realistic.

I demoed my speakers with an Icon Audio ST40 MkIII and they sounded great together, but I'm doubting a valve amp is a good idea. They need TCL and could limit future upgrades. What solid state amps would give a similar sound quality and work well with my speakers? Or should I change speakers? Budget around £2000.00 if needed.

I've demoed and/or owned many speakers and amplifiers over the past 15 years so I realise that compromises must be made somewhere.

So, do I compromise with better speakers not being properly driven by my Denon, or stick with my Quad 21L2's but drive them well?

Have you thought about adding a subwoofer to improve the low end? Those quads only have a 6 1/2" driver, so I wouldn't expect much bass from them. I don't know much about the Denon 3801, but does it have Audyssey? Running it may help with room correction and improve the upper end.

 

[KEW]

I'd agree with Mark and Hobbit.
Unless your Denon is defective or you play the Quads near their limits, the Denon should be able to drive them properly. 105 watts per channel should do fine.
I could not find measurements of the impedance. Quad publishes these as 6 ohm speakers. If that is true, the Denon should do the job. Are you using all 7 channels?
I guess I would say if you do not like the sound when the Denon is at 75% or less of total power, it is not the amp.
If you like the sound of the speakers, it must be the room.

Problems – lack of bass quantity and quality, highs a bit bright, some instruments could sound more realistic.

Looking at your room, the highs would get bright if you have lots of glass, sheet rock, and tile or hardwood floors, etc. You can do some impromptu testing by throwing carpet and blankets on the floor and walls to absorb treble. I suspect this will improve the treble and also increase the realism of these speakers. If that does the trick you can opt for acoustic treatments for your room, or simply add rugs and some tapestries/curtains.

For bass quality and quantity, you can set the speakers closer into the corner for added bass, but it will not improve (and may hurt) the quality.

Truly, 6.5" driver (especially just one) cannot provide solid bass. A sub is the best fix. I assume you are in Europe. Check Mordaunt Short for subwoofers that will essentially add a large woofer to your speakers. Set the crossover on your AVR to 80, then try 60Hz to see which you prefer.

The last consideration is that the Icon Audio ST40 MkIII amp added unique sound characteristics to the signal. The Denon is going to provide neutral sound, but sometimes smaller companies (especially tube amps) will decide to "enhance" the sound by embellishing the signal. This can certainly improve your perception of the sound, but is not that different from adding an equalizer to add emphasis to certain frequencies.
If it is the amp, that kind of sucks because the only way to assure that sound is that amp (which is far too expensive to buy and find out your room is the biggest issue).
See if the dealer will allow you to bring the amp home for a trial. You may have to buy then get refunded (but make sure of their policies, and speak with the manager if it is a smaller, privately owned shop).

 

[TheWarrior]

Start with treating your room, reconsider speaker location, but definitely 'Crawl for Bass'. Move sub(s) closer to corners as this will increase their in-room response. INCHES closer/farther from walls makes an audible difference.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Start with treating your room, reconsider speaker location, but definitely 'Crawl for Bass'. Move sub(s) closer to corners as this will increase their in-room response. INCHES closer/farther from walls makes an audible difference.

I think he doesn't have a sub to start with, at least not mentioning he has one.

Adding a sub(s) would give you more bass tho for sure. And like mentioned, room acoustics could help with highs.

 

[FennerMachine]

Thanks for the advice.

The room could be affecting the high frequencies. I can't do much as I'm moving soon. I will wait until I've moved to finalise what to upgrade to. I should be in a similar or larger room (15x12 feet).

I have no subwoofer, but that is an option I will consider.
I'm using 2 speakers for music, using 'Source Direct'.

Would my Denon amplifier be good enough to drive higher quality speakers than the Quad 21L2's such as Spendor SP2/3R2, Tannoy Precision 6.2, or Kef R700 and similar higher quality speakers? I could just take my amplifier and demo them and if happy with the results get home demo's. But is it worth even considering? Is the Denon more capable than I think?

 

[markw]

That Denon does not suck. It'll do justice to just about any speaker that it can safely drive.

Try to arrange an in-home trial of whatever speaker you are considering.

And, if they try to tell you that your home trial isn't sufficient to realize the benefits of their break-in period, run, do not walk away as fast as you can.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks for the advice.

The room could be affecting the high frequencies. I can't do much as I'm moving soon. I will wait until I've moved to finalise what to upgrade to. I should be in a similar or larger room (15x12 feet).

I have no subwoofer, but that is an option I will consider.
I'm using 2 speakers for music, using 'Source Direct'.

Would my Denon amplifier be good enough to drive higher quality speakers than the Quad 21L2's such as Spendor SP2/3R2, Tannoy Precision 6.2, or Kef R700 and similar higher quality speakers? I could just take my amplifier and demo them and if happy with the results get home demo's. But is it worth even considering? Is the Denon more capable than I think?

As mentioned, a 6 1/2" driver is not a sub of any value; good for mids. No matter how much power you throw at it, it will lack.
If your Denon has an auto eq built in, test it and see if that tames the highs.

 

[FennerMachine]

Update.

I've tried using digital coaxial from 751BD to Denon to allow the Denon to do the decoding.

This has made a noticeable improvement.

Music sounds similar but the bass is a bit better and the mid/high frequency compression/brightness is gone. I can now listen without fatigue and there is more realism to instruments and voices. I have not level matched so it could be to do with volume. I have to turn the amp up a bit more to get the same perceived volume, but without a meter I cannot be sure.

I still might home demo the Marantz amps but I now think the Denon is much better than I thought and might be more than adequate for my needs.

 

[TheWarrior]

I think GIK Acoustics sells a generic pack of 3) 2'x4'x2" for about $150. These will likely find a place in ANY room you move in to.

No, I don't work for GIK, I just have finally listened to what I've always been told about treating the room FIRST, and now I can't see any other way!

 

[FennerMachine]

Moved a few weeks ago.
New room 11'5" X 12'8"
The accoustics are amazing!
Very good imaging/sound stage, no harsh highs, bass a bit lacking but great at higher volumes.
Moving speakers may help with bass but limited where I can put them due to room size.
Maybe another amp could improve thing further but not sure I can justify the expense now.
Sticking with 2.0, no need for surround, but may consider a subwoofer. I have a low end one I can experiment with.

 

[PENG]

Update.

I've tried using digital coaxial from 751BD to Denon to allow the Denon to do the decoding.

This has made a noticeable improvement.

Music sounds similar but the bass is a bit better and the mid/high frequency compression/brightness is gone. I can now listen without fatigue and there is more realism to instruments and voices. I have not level matched so it could be to do with volume. I have to turn the amp up a bit more to get the same perceived volume, but without a meter I cannot be sure.

I still might home demo the Marantz amps but I now think the Denon is much better than I thought and might be more than adequate for my needs.

My two cents:

- As you mentioned, for a fair comparison you need to volume match, that is a must!!
- Use the dedicated stereo outputs on the 751BD, not the FL/FR, but you must know that already, just want to be sure though.
- I don't believe in expensive interconnects, but at least try a different interconnect in case the one you have is defective. It is not likely, but you never know. I hope you are not using the cheap interconnects that typically came with the product.
- On paper the 751BD's DAC section is superior than that in the 3801.
- In practice the DAC section in the 3801 has likely reached or passed the point of diminishing return such that in a blind test few people would be able to hear a difference if compared properly.

Again, any audible difference between DACs (I mean the whole electronic section) should be subtle but you spent good money or that near hi end BD player, you should stick to the analog outputs for serious 2 channel music listening. I also won't rule out the possibility that the 751BD could sound more revealing/accurate, to the point you prefer the more mellow sound of the Denon.

 

[herbu]

bass a bit lacking but great at higher volumes.

Are you still using one of the "Direct" modes on the Denon? If so, try "Stereo" instead of "Direct". That should enhance your bass, (and treble), a bit at lower volumes. I always use Stereo for lower volumes, Direct for higher volumes.

 

[FennerMachine]

After a few weeks I've noticed an underlying distortion.
Difficult to describe, a harshness or roughness but not bright.
Happens with multiple sources but worse via 751BD analogue outputs.
Must be amp or speakers?
What do you think and suggest?
Direct/stereo settings on Denon make little or no difference.
Using Chord Cobra 2 interconnects and Van Damme speaker cables.

 

[PENG]

After a few weeks I've noticed an underlying distortion.
Difficult to describe, a harshness or roughness but not bright.
Happens with multiple sources but worse via 751BD analogue outputs.
Must be amp or speakers?
What do you think and suggest?
Direct/stereo settings on Denon make little or no difference.
Using Chord Cobra 2 interconnects and Van Damme speaker cables.

Assuming the harshness or roughness is obvious and is not due to your source media, try the following tests:

Set the Denon to 5 or 7 channel stereo, but connect only one speaker at a time for each of the following tests using source media (CD, digital files, SACD etc.) that you know for sure are not the issue. If possible void pops and rocks and stick with jazz and classical that involves less amplified musical instruments. Remember, the quality of the recording is the determining factor for a reasonably high quality sound system such as yours.

1) Connect only the left speaker to the Denon's left channel.
2) If it sounds harsh, connect it to the Denon's right channel.
3) If it still sounds harsh, disconnect the left speaker, connect the right speaker to repeat tests 1)&2).

Let us know the results.

 

[FennerMachine]

I've done a brief test as suggested using a Linn sample disc.
All combinations sound the same except for being mono obviously.
Left and right speaker with either left or right outputs have the same basic sound signature.
The Linn music does not have the obvious harshness that pop does but it has an underlying fuzziness where voices and some instruments sound a bit unnatural. One track has several voices with one quite high. This track is more obviously distorting when she hits peaks with others singing too.
It does not sound bad, most without a Hifi would likely be happy over a more basic system.
Badly mastered music has very noticeable distortion.
Well recorded music is better but something is not right.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think adding a subwoofer is the quickest fix for bass quality and quantity. Also try Audyssey Dynamic EQ for bass EQ.

 

[PENG]

I've done a brief test as suggested using a Linn sample disc.
All combinations sound the same except for being mono obviously.
Left and right speaker with either left or right outputs have the same basic sound signature.
The Linn music does not have the obvious harshness that pop does but it has an underlying fuzziness where voices and some instruments sound a bit unnatural. One track has several voices with one quite high. This track is more obviously distorting when she hits peaks with others singing too.
It does not sound bad, most without a Hifi would likely be happy over a more basic system.
Badly mastered music has very noticeable distortion.
Well recorded music is better but something is not right.

I forgot to mention that you should do all the tests in pure direct mode. If you did, and were still getting the harsh and unnatural sound with either speakers and on either amp channel then I suspect the 3801 has problem. Being a 3801 it should be 12 years or older. On the other hand my 3805 is still working perfectly, so good that I am using it in my 2 channel system. I fully expect the 3801 just as good as long as it is not defective.

 

[PENG]

I think adding a subwoofer is the quickest fix for bass quality and quantity. Also try Audyssey Dynamic EQ for bass EQ.

His 3801 does not have Audyssey, so I assume you are suggesting that he should upgrade.