Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
My friend and I decided to check our HT setups with his spiffy new Avia disk and Rat Shack analog meter. People...we thought we had done our homework, listened carefully here to you knowledgeable folks, paid attention in class. We failed miserably! And now we're completely confused and hope you can straighten us out. Please speak slowly with your answers as we're old and dumb (apparently ample parts of the latter).

First, lemme tell you of a couple of Avia test results that are making us look for our medications. While running the bass roll off test on all my speakers (200hz down to 20hz), nothing showed minus 3 db down until 35hz. "Nothing" includes a JBL EC35 center channel speaker!! (That's two 5 and 1/2 inch 'woofers', a 3" midrange, and a 3/4" tweeter.) My 18 year old JBL J350's rolled off the table at 36db, and the S312 mains hit 32. My STF-1 began rolling off at 31.5 but had usable amplitude down to 25hz. All met JBL spec, except the center channel which smoked it. The Hsu met its. (This Avia is a tested and respected setup disk, is it not?! And the meter is recommended everywhere.)

Secondly, we don't understand why it is that when the surrounds (as an example) are set to small by my top-of-the-line Panasonic receiver, the test still takes them down to 36 +/-3db and the subwoofer never kicks in.

Thirdly, and this is the most puzzling, and it is perhaps indigenous to the receiver and/or DVD deck (another top-of-the-Panasonic-line), the Avia would only test l/r mains and lfe UNLESS the DVD deck was set to 6-channel direct (bypassing the receiver circuitry). I guess this is a wiring issue, but I don't know. In this 6-channel mode (and only that mode would test the surrounds and sub) we made readings off the disk and found some sizable changes called for between surrounds, center, and mains. But the Pana receiver only allows changes in output in non-direct mode. So we exit the disk, play the receiver's speaker volume test, and input the appropriate db changes that the Avia+meter suggested. NO SOAP! All those changes are lost...of course - eureka, because we're bypassing the receiver's circuitry. GRRRRRR!! So it appears that whatever the DVD and deck send is what gets played. Now c'mon, there must be something we can do to fix this. But we don't have the vaguest notion what it might be...even after several judicious readings of the receiver manual. I hope the above is clear...cuz I'm still confused. The disk will only play in 6-channel direct mode. No receiver action is conveyed. Therefore, we can make no changes in the relative speaker ouput.

Finally, it seems the sub ONLY plays in 6-channer mode when it is given an LFE signal. With my fronts set to 100, 200, or large, it doesn't seem to matter. The little Hsu only goes bang when it sees and LFE signal from the DVD. By the way, I could find no way to play the Avia DVD video in just plain-o DVD setting on the receiver....just in 6-channel mode. Again, I think that's probably because out only audio output is the 6-channel rca cables to the Rx. (My old Pana DVD deck had an optical out, but not this new and 'improved' model. Hmmm.)

So, I'm lost. We're lost. I may have to find a new hobby...something less frustrating...like golf!

Help?!
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
I take it that's a class D digital receiver, right?
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Buckeyefan 1 said:
I take it that's a class D digital receiver, right?

LOL, there ya go, not speaking slowly enough, already. Buckeyefan, I timidly admit I don't know what a class D digital Rx is. The manual says it complies with FCC rules for a class B digital device. Is that what you mean?

Specs....
2channel...105 W/ch
0.05% thd (6 ohms)
1/2 power at 1khz 0.03 thd (6 ohms)
power bandwidth both channels driven, -3db...10hz-100khz (6 ohms, 0.9%)
Power output each channel driven (6.1)...130 w @ (6 ohms)
thd...0.9%
etc.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
ps....the Rx is a Panasonic SA-HE200 AV Control Receiver.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
rjbudz said:
LOL, there ya go, not speaking slowly enough, already. Buckeyefan, I timidly admit I don't know what a class D digital Rx is. The manual says it complies with FCC rules for a class B digital device. Is that what you mean?

Specs....
2channel...105 W/ch
0.05% thd (6 ohms)
1/2 power at 1khz 0.03 thd (6 ohms)
power bandwidth both channels driven, -3db...10hz-100khz (6 ohms, 0.9%)
Power output each channel driven (6.1)...130 w @ (6 ohms)
thd...0.9%
etc.
Sorry :) . I'm not up to par on Panasonic receivers. The ones I've seen are digital. What's the model number?
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Sorry :) . I'm not up to par on Panasonic receivers. The ones I've seen are digital. What's the model number?

'Tis digital.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
silversurfer said:
I don't think the HE200 is digital.
It is "called" a digital device for FCC purposes...a class B digital device. Is it just the Amp section you're calling digital? This is from the Panasonic website...
SA-HE200K
Home Theater Receiver with Built-in Dolby Digital EX/DTS-ES Decoder, Black

This dude processes digital signals (dolby digital, DTS), has digital inputs and outputs. What is it that makes a digital receiver? What IS the definition of a digital receiver??

Lost in the ozone again........









• Operating instructions (2824K) Requires Adobe Reader
 
snickelfritz

snickelfritz

Junior Audioholic
I believe you are running into an external analog input limitation.
(your DVD player is probably one of the new DVD-A or SACD players with local surround and bass management)

For example, on my Denon, signals from the 6 channel external inputs automatically bypass the receiver's bass management and surround circuitry and are directly connected to the pre-outs.
My recommendation would be to use the digital output of the DVD player for surround if possible, or see if the DVD player has its own surround and subwoofer level controls. (they should be in software setup, similar to your Rx)
 
Tomorrow

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Audioholic Ninja
snickelfritz said:
I believe you are running into an external analog input limitation.
(your DVD player is probably one of the new DVD-A or SACD players with local surround and bass management)

For example, on my Denon, signals from the 6 channel external inputs automatically bypass the receiver's bass management and surround circuitry and are directly connected to the pre-outs.
My recommendation would be to use the digital output of the DVD player for surround if possible, or see if the DVD player has its own surround and subwoofer level controls. (they should be in software setup, similar to your Rx)

I think you hit it on the noggin, Snickelfritz! It is a newer SACD player with said surround and bass management. One thing about Panasonic...they make fine equipment at affordable prices...BUT their manuals (like too many device manuals) really suck when it comes to clarity, completeness, and accuracy (and not to mention...good English!). I've been struggling with it, and it seems as though there IS a solution to the speaker conflict issue. I'll check further tomorrow, as it's getting time for the missus to drag me away. :)

Many thanks for providing this old man with some clarity. Now, if I can just figure out the DVD manual, lol.

Oh, and also, any comments on that center channel speaker? 90db at 35hz????!!!! Can that be right? :confused:
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
snickelfritz said:
an external analog input limitation.


I think you guys are toying with me and my neophyteness (or commenting upon my manhood). LOL!!!
 
R

RhapsodyInBlack

Junior Audioholic
RJ,i think that the suggestion that you try to use your optical/digital output on the dvd unit is probably the safest bet to solve your problem. As noted earlier, when you use the analog rca multi channel outputs on your dvd deck, you will completly bypass any decoding circuitry that is in your reciever. The receiver will basically take these signals in and push them right back out without any decoding at all. I would definately suggest hooking up the dvd player with an optical or digital coax cable and re-running the test. Set your receiver up to automatically search for the digital connection when you are in dvd mode, and have it set up to receive the analog multi channel inputs when you are on cd or music mode. You may also have to set your dvd player up to the same type of configuration,as well....digital for movies, analog for music...hope the help in the forums will help you on your endevour before you throw in the white flag !!!
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
RhapsodyInBlack said:
RJ,i think that the suggestion that you try to use your optical/digital output on the dvd unit is probably the safest bet to solve your problem. As noted earlier, when you use the analog rca multi channel outputs on your dvd deck, you will completly bypass any decoding circuitry that is in your reciever. The receiver will basically take these signals in and push them right back out without any decoding at all. I would definately suggest hooking up the dvd player with an optical or digital coax cable and re-running the test. Set your receiver up to automatically search for the digital connection when you are in dvd mode, and have it set up to receive the analog multi channel inputs when you are on cd or music mode. You may also have to set your dvd player up to the same type of configuration,as well....digital for movies, analog for music...hope the help in the forums will help you on your endevour before you throw in the white flag !!!

Thanks, RhapsodyInBlack.

I do also have the DVD set up with the digital coax. (For some reason, when I upgraded to this newer DVD-F87 model, they eliminated the optical connection capability. Weird.) But I'm told by the manual that the multichannel (6-channel) sound settings/connections provide the best audio (and it seems true). Both the receiver and the DVD deck are set to auto mode now for best play configuration. I did finally find the software settings within the DVD deck for surround speaker testing/adjustments, as suggested wisely by Snickelfritz. LOL, whenever I go out of DVD mode, say back to tv, I have to reset the relative surround speaker volumes. ACK! 2-channel is not affected.

So much complexity. So little brain power. Thanks everyone for your help. (But I'm still wondering what the definition of a digital receiver is.)
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
I think Buckeye was asking if the amplifier section was digital, as in a Class D amp, as opposed to the regular ol' Class A/B linear amps that are used in most receivers and amps.
 
R

RhapsodyInBlack

Junior Audioholic
Rj....sounds like trouble in paradise. It shouldnt be this complicated...it really shouldnt be ! ok....now,the receiver users manual says that the best audio is provided by the multi outs or is that a suggestion on the part of the dvd deck manual ? I'm a little surprised that the manual would suggest skipping the de-coding process that would come from a 3k receiver ( not suggesting thats what you have, just theoretically speaking )...When you are doing your speaker tests in multi ch analog mode,do you still have complete control over individual speaker settings ? My last question would be that if you are happy with your speaker/volume settings, i'm assuming the only issue now is trying to save these particular settings so they are on by default when you switch back and forth between programs ( dvd,tv,vhs)....
 
Tomorrow

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Audioholic Ninja
RhapsodyInBlack said:
Rj....sounds like trouble in paradise. It shouldnt be this complicated...it really shouldnt be ! ok....now,the receiver users manual says that the best audio is provided by the multi outs or is that a suggestion on the part of the dvd deck manual ? I'm a little surprised that the manual would suggest skipping the de-coding process that would come from a 3k receiver ( not suggesting thats what you have, just theoretically speaking )

It is the DVD manual that makes that suggestion. The receiver manual also kind of hints that bypassing its filters/settings/processings is not such a bad thing in this type of situation. At least that's my reading of it's intent.

...When you are doing your speaker tests in multi ch analog mode,do you still have complete control over individual speaker settings ?

I have control over the speakers when is 6-channel mode, via the DVD software only.

My last question would be that if you are happy with your speaker/volume settings, i'm assuming the only issue now is trying to save these particular settings so they are on by default when you switch back and forth between programs ( dvd,tv,vhs)....
You got it! AND....I just figured out how to do it! EUREKA! So now I have the separate settings set and saved for each application. You're right, my friend. It really shouldn't be this hard.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Oops again, RhapsodyI.B....part of my response is embedded in the shaded quote of yours.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
jaxvon said:
I think Buckeye was asking if the amplifier section was digital, as in a Class D amp, as opposed to the regular ol' Class A/B linear amps that are used in most receivers and amps.

Okay, I know this is yet another juvenile question and I must be sounding like a terrible dummy....but how do you tell whether it's D or A/B? The specs don't say (other than what I said about the class B FCC stuff). Is there a way of telling which it is if the manufacturer doesn't announce it somewhere?
 
R

RhapsodyInBlack

Junior Audioholic
Rj, this may help a bit in your understanding of the different classes...as far as finding which class your particular amp is, i would imagine it is buried somewhere in the back of your receiver users manual along with the general specs of the equipment...if worse comes to worse and you cant find it in the book, im sure someone around here could find it using the model # of your particular receiver....

by the way,this is a copied link and it was reprinted without permission by me for you from ScreenSound Australia....a quick google search found it for me.

Amplifier classes: Audio power amplifiers are classified primarily by the design of the output stage. Classification is based on the amount of time the output devices operate during each cycle of signal swing. Also defined in terms of output bias current, (the amount of current flowing in the output devices with no signal).

Class A operation is where both devices conduct continuously for the entire cycle of signal swing, or the bias current flows in the output devices at all times. The key ingredient of class A operation is that both devices are always on. There is no condition where one or the other is turned off. Because of this, class A amplifiers are single-ended designs with only one type polarityoutput devices. Class A is the most inefficient of all power amplifier designs, averaging only around 20%. Because of this, class A amplifiers are large, heavy and run very hot. All this is due to the amplifier constantly operating at full power.The positive effect of all this is that class A designs are inherently the most linear, with the least amount of distortion.

Class B operation is the opposite of class A. Both output devices are never allowed to be on at the same time, or the bias is set so that current flow in a specific output device is zero when not stimulated with an input signal, i.e., the current in a specific output flows for one half cycle. Thus each output device is on for exactly one half of a complete sinusoidal signal cycle. Due to this operation, class B designs show high efficiency but poor linearity around the crossover region. This is due to the time it takes to turn one device off and the other device on, which translates into extreme crossover distortion. Thus restricting class B designs to power consumption critical applications, e.g., battery operated equipment, such as 2-way radio and other communications audio.

Class AB operation allows both devices to be on at the same time (like in class A), but just barely. The output bias is set so that current flows in a specific output device appreciably more than a half cycle but less than the entire cycle. That is, only a small amount of current is allowed to flow through both devices, unlike the complete load current of class A designs, but enough to keep each device operating so they respond instantly to input voltage demands. Thus the inherent non-linearity of class B designs is eliminated, without the gross inefficiencies of the class A design. It is this combination of good efficiency (around 50%) with excellent linearity that makes class AB the most popular audio amplifier design.

Class AB plus B design involves two pairs of output devices: one pair operates class AB while the other (slave) pair operates class B.

Class D operation is switching, hence the term switching power amplifier. Here the output devices are rapidly switched on and off at least twice for each cycle. Since the output devices are either completely on or completely off they do not theoretically dissipate any power. Consequently class D operation is theoretically 100% efficient, but this requires zero on-impedance switches with infinitely fast switching times -- a product we're still waiting for; meanwhile designs do exist with true efficiencies approaching 90%.

Class G operation involves changing the power supply voltage from a lower level to a higher level when larger output swings are required. There have been several ways to do this. The simplest involves a single class AB output stage that is connected to two power supply rails by a diode, or a transistor switch. The design is such that for most musical program material, the output stage is connected to the lower supply voltage, and automatically switches to the higher rails for large signal peaks. Another approach uses two class AB output stages, each connected to a different power supply voltage, with the magnitude of the input signal determining the signal path. Using two power supplies improves efficiency enough to allow significantly more power for a given size and weight. Class G is becoming common for pro audio designs. Class H operation takes the class G design one step further and actually modulates the higher power supply voltage by the input signal. This allows the power supply to track the audio input and provide just enough voltage for optimum operation of the output devices. The efficiency of class H is comparable to class G designs.
 
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Audioholic Ninja
Thanks again for the great info, RhapsodyI.B.

That was a good summary of the amp types. BTW, there is no reference anywhere on my receiver or the manual about the nature of the amp...other than its performance specs. So I sent them email (it's not on there website, either). Report at 6. :)
 

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