Don't know which speakers to buy

[Stretch90]

So, I've been looking to set up a good sound system at home and I've been struggling with which direction to go. I'm not knowledgeable in this area so I need some help.

I've been looking at some all in one packages but now I'm wondering if I should go for quality over quantity and get some high quality tower speakers. I went to a store and the salesman recommended Kef over every other brand. There is a 2 speaker set for 2k or some cheaper options like the Q500 and Q700. What do you guys think of the brand? I realize going this direction will be pretty expensive since a decent receiver for these speakers will probably cost around $700 as well and I'm not sure how to decide which receiver to go for.

Also, the guy said the only all in one package he'd recommend is the Onkyo 7.1 with two angled speakers on top of the floor standing speakers. It looked decent enough for the whole package at 1k but I'd rather sacrifice extra speakers for sound quality.

Is it worth the money to go for Kef or should I go a different direction altogether?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is a nice KEF deal - pair of Q700 + a matching Q600C center for only $1K. Just add a pair of Q100 bookshelf and you got yourself a nice KEF system.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/kef-q700s-q600c-1-000-washington-dc-area.92160/

Personally, I would not buy any Onkyo AVR. I would stick to Denon, Yamaha, or Pioneer.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I’ve never heard them personally, but KEF has always enjoyed a reputation as a first-class speaker.

If you’re going for a home theater system I expect you’ll probably be getting a subwoofer? If that’s the case I’d suggest that you can get by just fine with smaller (and therefore cheaper) bookshelf speakers. With the subwoofer adequately carrying the bottom end you don’t really need big, expensive full-range speakers that you’ll probably end up crossing over at 80 Hz anyway. A bookshelf with a 6-1/2” or 8” woofer puts out enough bass to blend with a sub.

That said, the link AcuDef provided looks like a stellar deal.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Stretch90]

I’ve never heard them personally, but KEF has always enjoyed a reputation as a first-class speaker.

If you’re going for a home theater system I expect you’ll probably be getting a subwoofer? If that’s the case I’d suggest that you can get by just fine with smaller (and therefore cheaper) bookshelf speakers. With the subwoofer adequately carrying the bottom end you don’t really need big, expensive full-range speakers that you’ll probably end up crossing over at 80 Hz anyway. A bookshelf with a 6-1/2” or 8” woofer puts out enough bass to blend with a sub.

That said, the link AcuDef provided looks like a stellar deal.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

So, can these floor standing speakers provide enough bottom end to not need a sub? To be honest, I'm not sure what the larger speakers offer compared to bookshelf speakers.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

I have nothing but positive to say about KEF speakers. LS50 for example could build really nice 5.1 setup, or like suggested buy those towers + center and rears. I can say from my own experience that Marantz receivers pair really well with KEF speakers. And for bass, it really depends how much bass you want. You could buy those now and add sub later if you feel like it. Same with rears, you dont need to buy everything in one go.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

So, can these floor standing speakers provide enough bottom end to not need a sub? To be honest, I'm not sure what the larger speakers offer compared to bookshelf speakers.

A good HT sub should get down to at least 25 Hz, if not lower, and typically only the largest, most expensive full-range speakers have that capability. But even then, the prodigious bass that movies demand requires extreme cone movement from the woofers, which causes distortion in the mid-range (with most full-range speakers, the woofer also carries a lot of mid-range information).

In addition, in most rooms the best location for optimal bass response is not the location that gets the best imaging. With a separate sub you can realize the best of both.

Bottom line, it’s typically recommended to have a sub, even with full-range speakers.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Steve81]

So, can these floor standing speakers provide enough bottom end to not need a sub? To be honest, I'm not sure what the larger speakers offer compared to bookshelf speakers.

Disclaimer: those are my speakers for sale in the link.

The Q700 doesn't have enough low end to even think about skipping a subwoofer. Relative to the Q300, which is the comparable bookshelf speaker, the main reasons to opt for the Q700 are that it is 2dB more sensitive and it and offers greater output capability (even assuming both are paired with a sub).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So, can these floor standing speakers provide enough bottom end to not need a sub? To be honest, I'm not sure what the larger speakers offer compared to bookshelf speakers.

Bigger more dynamic speakers allow for more volume before distorting the sound. They also look better.

In your price range, all the towers will require a subwoofer or two.

The lowest price tower I would personally buy that does not require a subwoofer is the RBH SX-8300, which has a MSRP of $5,000, street price about $3800.

 

[Stretch90]

I was never thinking of not having a sub, I was just asking out of curiosity. I guess my main question now is if getting bookshelf speakers is good enough over the Q700.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I guess my main question now is if getting bookshelf speakers is good enough over the Q700.

Everyone is different. For some people, yes, bookshelf speakers are good enough over towers.

You ought to audition some bookshelf vs towers and see what you think.

 

[Stretch90]

Everyone is different. For some people, yes, bookshelf speakers are good enough over towers.

You ought to audition some bookshelf vs towers and see what you think.

I think that's what I'll do. I want to see if the sub can make up for what the bookshelf speakers lack compared to the towers.

 

[herbu]

I want to see if the sub can make up for what the bookshelf speakers lack compared to the towers.

A little more homework may help. You may be surprised at how little difference there is in bass response between less expensive towers and bookshelves. Here are some examples:
KEF Q700 Towers: 36Hz - 40kHz +/- 3dB
RBH SX-8300 Towers: 25Hz - 20kHz +/- 3dB
Philharmonic Slims Tower: 35Hz - 20kHz +/- 2dB
Philharmonitor Bookshelf: 42Hz - 30kHz +/- 2dB

Here you have 3 towers with a bottom end of 36Hz, 25Hz and 35Hz. And one bookshelf w/ 42Hz. So how much difference is that really? The rule of thumb is that doubling any frequency represents a change of one octave. That's 12 notes. So a one octave scale starting at 25Hz will go to 50Hz. Each note is a change of just over 4Hz from the previous note.

Using the most expensive RBH speakers, ($3800), as reference, you would lose ~2 notes w/ the Phil Slims, ($2k), and Steve81's Q700s and Q600c center, ($1k). Going to the Philharmonitor bookshelfs, ($850), you would lose ~4 notes.

My point is that there is NOT a huge difference in a bass response of 10-20Hz. Therefore, there is not always a huge difference in towers and bookshelves. In your price range, I think you will be pleased adding a subwoofer at some point. And frankly, Steve81's deal on the Q700s AND Q600c center would be hard to beat. Just my .02.

Edit: BTW, the very bottom note on a standard 88-key piano is 27.5Hz. All of the notes in the examples above are in the bottom octave of a piano.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A little more homework may help. You may be surprised at how little difference there is in bass response between less expensive towers and bookshelves. Here are some examples:
KEF Q700 Towers: 36Hz - 40kHz +/- 3dB
RBH SX-8300 Towers: 25Hz - 20kHz +/- 3dB
Philharmonic Slims Tower: 35Hz - 20kHz +/- 2dB
Philharmonitor Bookshelf: 42Hz - 30kHz +/- 2dB

Here you have 3 towers with a bottom end of 36Hz, 25Hz and 35Hz. And one bookshelf w/ 42Hz. So how much difference is that really? The rule of thumb is that doubling any frequency represents a change of one octave. That's 12 notes. So a one octave scale starting at 25Hz will go to 50Hz. Each note is a change of just over 4Hz from the previous note.

Using the most expensive RBH speakers, ($3800), as reference, you would lose ~2 notes w/ the Phil Slims, ($2k), and Steve81's Q700s and Q600c center, ($1k). Going to the Philharmonitor bookshelfs, ($850), you would lose ~4 notes.

My point is that there is NOT a huge difference in a bass response of 10-20Hz. Therefore, there is not always a huge difference in towers and bookshelves. In your price range, I think you will be pleased adding a subwoofer at some point. And frankly, Steve81's deal on the Q700s AND Q600c center would be hard to beat. Just my .02.

Well, the RBH SX-8300 can be ACTIVELY bi-amped which turns the bass into ACTIVE subwoofers, which will be significantly more bass than even the $22K Revel Salon2's bass, the $30K KEF Blade's bass, the $25K B&W 800D's bass, and the Phil3's bass, which are all PASSIVE bass.

Those specification bass response numbers don't really tell the whole story when it comes to practical potential.

For example, some measurements have the Revel Salon2 going down to 22Hz @ -3dB. But they are passive and you can't just increase the bass output without messing the whole frequency response. The SX-8300 goes down to 25Hz @ -3dB on measurement, but you can easily increase just the bass output without messing with the midrange or treble. So the end result is that I can get a lot more bass from the SX-8300 compared to all these passive towers, even though it doesn't seem like it on paper.

 

[herbu]

which will be significantly more bass

"More" being "louder", right? "More" doesn't mean lower. Hertz is hertz. But you're right that the +/- 3dB specs don't really indicate what some call "usable" bass. The RBH may slope off more gradually and give an even lower usable frequency response. But so may the others. And I agree that the active bi-amp capability means you can more easily turn up the bass volume. But for much less than $3800, the OP could get Steve81s L/C/R AND a very nice subwoofer. To match it w/ the 8300s, he'd still have to get a center and dedicated amps to bi-amp. And even bi-amp'd, would not go as low as a good subwoofer. Am I wrong?

 

[Steve81]

Keep in mind, my deal is local to the DC area only. I don't have the boxes for shipping. If the OP doesn't live around me, that KEF package is ~1,500 B-stock from A4L.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"More" being "louder", right? "More" doesn't mean lower. Hertz is hertz. But you're right that the +/- 3dB specs don't really indicate what some call "usable" bass.

It's the same principle as using an active subwoofer.

Let's say your volume is 90dB and at higher volume, the treble and midrange will cause discomfort.

Speaker A may have a F3 of 25Hz and outputs this frequency @ 87dB when the volume of the midrange and treble is 90dB. The 20Hz frequency may be @ 75dB.

Speaker B may have a F3 of 25Hz and outputs this frequency @ 87dB when the volume of the midrange and treble is 90dB. But because the bass is ACTIVE, it can output 90dB, 93dB, 96dB, 99dB, 102dB, etc. @ 25Hz while the volume of the midrange and treble is still 90dB. If you wanted to, you could also decrease the volume of the midrange and treble to 87dB and keep the volume of the bass higher to make the overall loudness to a comfortable level. So here, the 20Hz frequency may be @ 87dB vs. 75dB on the passive speaker. Thus, the F3 of speaker B in this example is 20Hz, not 25Hz.

Just an illustration.

Imagine listening to music. The treble sounds awesome. The midrange sounds great. Imaging and soundstage sound fabulous. But the bass level seems anemic. With the active bass tower, you just simply increase the bass level using your iPad remote. Now the bass level is a lot punchier, more dynamic and full.

I've listened to the Salon2 for about 2 years. The same with the Phil3. There are just songs where they could not produce the bass I desire. I had to use additional subwoofers. Not a problem with the RBH towers with active bass control because it is exactly like using additional subwoofers.

But absolutely yes, you could go more economical route and get the KEF towers or bookshelf speakers + subwoofers. At the same time, I don't believe that all "good" subwoofers sound equally good, but probably good enough for most people.

Most people would be ecstatic with the KEF speakers + subwoofer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that's what I'll do. I want to see if the sub can make up for what the bookshelf speakers lack compared to the towers.

Definitely the most prudent thing to do.

Nothing beats actual audition of the speakers.

 

[KEW]

There are two ways to look at the BS vs FS debate.
One is how well do they compete within the same manufacturer and series as in the case of the KEF Q300's vs the Q700's.
The other is to look at BS vs FS of equal price. For example, for $3000/pair you could buy Paradigm Studio 100 or Paradigm Signature S2. I don't think anyone could intelligently argue that the Studio100 can touch the S2 in any Sound Quality area other than how loud they can play.
Steve81 is dead on - the main benefit of floorstanders is increased output.

Also, don't discount looks! Lots of people spend money for towers not because of SQ, but because they like the look. If you choose wisely, you will be looking at them for a long time to come.
Personally, I like BS speakers (with sub) - something about full, wonderful sound coming from a small box just floats my boat!
Note - much of the fullness of the sound comes from the sub, but at sub frequencies you cannot detect the source so it seems all sound comes from the main speakers.

 

[Stretch90]

I'm going to the store to compare the Q100 vs the FS speakers from Kef. Any suggestions on which receiver would be good for either of them? I'm a fan of Yamaha but I don't know what qualities to look for in a receiver. I just need something with at least 4 HDMI inputs and I don't think I'll get one with airplay because I'd rather get Apple TV.

 

[Stretch90]

So I went to the store last night to look around and I found some pretty good deals so I bought a few items. I got the Q100 speakers for $400, the Q400 sub for $500 and a Yamaha RXV577 receiver for $400. I looked around online and the prices looked good so I went for it, keep in mind these are in CAD.
So far I love the sound, especially the sub. I compared the Q400 to a paradigm sub for a similar price but the Q400 had this amazing full bass sound that you couldn't tell was coming from a box. It feels like I'm in a theatre it sounds so amazing, and the speakers have great clarity too. I'm going to keep testing stuff today and let you guys know how it sounds.