Dolby Surround and Dolby Enabled speakers force processing in main left and right speakers?

[m. zillch]

 

[highfigh]

The manufacturer of the first set of speakers would be happy if the consumer buys additional speakers. With any luck the new set might be from them too.

What part of my post do you not understand? I meant that if they leave, there's no guarantee that they'll come back to the store or brand?

 

[m. zillch]

"Conclusion

It’s interesting to hear the opinions about Atmos Elevation speakers from the various industry experts briefly interviewed herein. What seems apparent is that Atmos Elevation speakers aren’t designed to deliver precise sound reflected from the ceiling back to the listener as much as they are designed to deliver virtual height to increase the vertical soundstage of the experience. When dealing with Atmos Elevation speakers vs. conventional ceiling mounted alternatives, the former are relying on mostly high frequency bouncing to create the illusion of height and the success of this depends largely on ceiling height, ceiling material, speaker placement and how each individual perceives the HRTF processing.


If your goal is to stay true to the source or director’s intention, then you most likely will want to put a little more effort into mounting ceiling speakers. "

- Gene DellaSala

 

[Mike Up]

Ok, took my Atmos Dolby Enabled up-firing speakers out a long time ago back in February. I recently started playing around with it again, without the speakers. Once again, it's flipping the polarity of the center channel speaker when set for up-firing speakers with crossover above 100Hz.

Now the front sound stage degradation seems to be coming from ABC Chicago news but not NBC Chicago. I believe CBS Chicago news was also doing it but can't remember. Therefore, I'm thinking that a mono signal of the voices is duplicated in the front channels which pulls the voices up and to the left from my seating position. NBC Chicago does not do this. This is added DSP manipulation of the signal by the Dolby Processing for these Up-firing speakers. So I'm not using those anymore for sure. I'll just sell those speakers.

What I am going to do now is use some Polk TL1 speakers, same as I have for surround speakers, for Atmos Front Height speakers. I will put them up to my ceiling, on my front wall and aim them down toward the listening position. While not giving overhead Atmos, I should get a taller sound field. I didn't do this from the start as my ceiling is not high enough, nor is my listening position close enough, to get the recommended 30 degree angle from the speaker. After doing a lot of research, even with a lesser degree angle, using front height speakers is the way to go over nothing and even over Atmos Dolby Enabled Up-firing speakers. I thought I would get better from the up-firing speakers and why I went with them initially.

When I have installed the Atmos Front Height Speakers, I will report back with the findings but will likely leave these up even if it's not great as installing them will be a pain and then I'll have wall mounts installed that I don't want to take off leaving behind screw holes.

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, took my Atmos Dolby Enabled up-firing speakers out a long time ago back in February. I recently started playing around with it again, without the speakers. Once again, it's flipping the polarity of the center channel speaker when set for up-firing speakers with crossover above 100Hz.

Now the front sound stage degradation seems to be coming from ABC Chicago news but not NBC Chicago. I believe CBS Chicago news was also doing it but can't remember. Therefore, I'm thinking that a mono signal of the voices is duplicated in the front channels which pulls the voices up and to the left from my seating position. NBC Chicago does not do this. This is added DSP manipulation of the signal by the Dolby Processing for these Up-firing speakers. So I'm not using those anymore for sure. I'll just sell those speakers.

What I am going to do now is use some Polk TL1 speakers, same as I have for surround speakers, for Atmos Front Height speakers. I will put them up to my ceiling, on my front wall and aim them down toward the listening position. While not giving overhead Atmos, I should get a taller sound field. I didn't do this from the start as my ceiling is not high enough, nor is my listening position close enough, to get the recommended 30 degree angle from the speaker. After doing a lot of research, even with a lesser degree angle, using front height speakers is the way to go over nothing and even over Atmos Dolby Enabled Up-firing speakers. I thought I would get better from the up-firing speakers and why I went with them initially.

When I have installed the Atmos Front Height Speakers, I will report back with the findings but will likely leave these up even if it's not great as installing them will be a pain and then I'll have wall mounts installed that I don't want to take off leaving behind screw holes.

I suspect that the crossover switching is due to phase shifts in the internal crossovers of the speakers. The infinity speakers have fourth order crossovers. The POLK kept the details proprietary. For the Infinities the phase shift will be a delay of half a cycle, which is 180 degrees for the woofer and an advance of 180 degrees or half a cycle for the tweeter. For a whole cycle shift of 360 degrees at crossover.

So there could well be incompatible phase shifts between the speakers. It is very easy when using different speakers to run into incompatible phase shifts, which will cause what you have noticed. So if the Polk speakers have half section crossovers, it will put them exactly out of phase with the mains and center at crossover.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok, took my Atmos Dolby Enabled up-firing speakers out a long time ago back in February. I recently started playing around with it again, without the speakers. Once again, it's flipping the polarity of the center channel speaker when set for up-firing speakers with crossover above 100Hz.

Now the front sound stage degradation seems to be coming from ABC Chicago news but not NBC Chicago. I believe CBS Chicago news was also doing it but can't remember. Therefore, I'm thinking that a mono signal of the voices is duplicated in the front channels which pulls the voices up and to the left from my seating position. NBC Chicago does not do this. This is added DSP manipulation of the signal by the Dolby Processing for these Up-firing speakers. So I'm not using those anymore for sure. I'll just sell those speakers.

What I am going to do now is use some Polk TL1 speakers, same as I have for surround speakers, for Atmos Front Height speakers. I will put them up to my ceiling, on my front wall and aim them down toward the listening position. While not giving overhead Atmos, I should get a taller sound field. I didn't do this from the start as my ceiling is not high enough, nor is my listening position close enough, to get the recommended 30 degree angle from the speaker. After doing a lot of research, even with a lesser degree angle, using front height speakers is the way to go over nothing and even over Atmos Dolby Enabled Up-firing speakers. I thought I would get better from the up-firing speakers and why I went with them initially.

When I have installed the Atmos Front Height Speakers, I will report back with the findings but will likely leave these up even if it's not great as installing them will be a pain and then I'll have wall mounts installed that I don't want to take off leaving behind screw holes.

Mono signal? What format/codec do your receive from each station?

 

[Mike Up]

Mono signal? What format/codec do your receive from each station?

It's DD 5.1 but they can mix it anyway they want. It's just anchors talking about the news.

 

[lovinthehd]

It's DD 5.1 but they can mix it anyway they want. It's just anchors talking about the news.

Why would 5.1 include mono much of anything except perhaps low bass? Who cares about talking heads anyways?

 

[Mike Up]

I suspect that the crossover switching is due to phase shifts in the internal crossovers of the speakers. The infinity speakers have fourth order crossovers. The POLK kept the details proprietary. For the Infinities the phase shift will be a delay of half a cycle, which is 180 degrees for the woofer and an advance of 180 degrees or half a cycle for the tweeter. For a whole cycle shift of 360 degrees at crossover.

So there could well be incompatible phase shifts between the speakers. It is very easy when using different speakers to run into incompatible phase shifts, which will cause what you have noticed. So if the Polk speakers have half section crossovers, it will put them exactly out of phase with the mains and center at crossover.

Hum, my main system is all Elac Debut 2.0 up front, my media room system 'was' all Polk with TL1 and TL1 Center, and now the Media Room is all Infinity Primus series in front. So no mismatches at all. All speaker systems show the flaw with DSP manipulation using up-firing speakers.

 

[Mike Up]

Why would 5.1 include mono much of anything except perhaps low bass? Who cares about talking heads anyways?

If the news can show this DSP flaw, then sound tracks of other movies will as well. I watch older movies now mixed in 5.1 as well as newer movies mixed in Atmos.

The DSP flaw is there waiting for the right sound track as ABC Chicago News to show the soundstage damage. Plus DSP is happening when a direct signal should be used for purity hence why I'm done with the up-firing speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

If the news can show this DSP flaw, then sound tracks of other movies will as well. I watch older movies now mixed in 5.1 as well as newer movies mixed in Atmos.

The DSP flaw is there waiting for the right sound track as ABC Chicago News to show the soundstage damage. Plus DSP is happening when a direct signal should be used for purity hence why I'm done with the up-firing speakers.

You haven't proved its a dsp flaw, could merely be your perception or setup. Bouncy speakers otoh not something I'd ever do.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hum, my main system is all Elac Debut 2.0 up front, my media room system 'was' all Polk with TL1 and TL1 Center, and now the Media Room is all Infinity Primus series in front. So no mismatches at all. All speaker systems show the flaw with DSP manipulation using up-firing speakers.

OTOH those aren't matched speakers all around....so yes, some inherent mismatching is happening.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hum, my main system is all Elac Debut 2.0 up front, my media room system 'was' all Polk with TL1 and TL1 Center, and now the Media Room is all Infinity Primus series in front. So no mismatches at all. All speaker systems show the flaw with DSP manipulation using up-firing speakers.

That is understandable as with the direction of them being up firing, the sound would be going away from the mains, where as if they were on the ceiling all sounds would be to the listening position. So naturally your receiver will detect a phasing issue. I suspect those speakers with up firing drivers, have their phase reversed, but I have never examined one of those miscreant devices.

 

[Mike Up]

OTOH those aren't matched speakers all around....so yes, some inherent mismatching is happening.

What is mismatched?? They are all the same series speakers with the dedicated series center channel speaker. They are all timber matched, there's no mismatching at all.

Whether you guys want to acknowledge it or not, it's there and happening and it is a known issue using the Dolby Enabled up-firing speakers. I explained everything, verified it on both of the Denon Atmos Receivers, in different rooms. Settings flip the center channel polarity to keeps phase canceling from happening from front soundstage with the up-firing speaker reflections. It is absolutely repeatable on both of my systems.

 

[lovinthehd]

What is mismatched?? They are all the same series speakers with the dedicated series center channel speaker. They are all timber matched, there's no mismatching at all.

Whether you guys want to acknowledge it or not, it's there and happening and it is a known issue using the Dolby Enabled up-firing speakers. I explained everything, verified it on both of the Denon Atmos Receivers, in different rooms. Settings flip the center channel polarity to keeps phase canceling from happening from front soundstage with the up-firing speaker reflections. It is absolutely repeatable on both of my systems.

Different model speakers within a "line" aren't identical. Timbre matched, perhaps, more likely marketing. Using upfiring speakers is the general problem, they're poop.

 

[Mike Up]

Different model speakers within a "line" aren't identical. Timbre matched, perhaps, more likely marketing. Using upfiring speakers is the general problem, they're poop.

The up-firing speakers are gone, aren't being used. I have both receivers setup as if they do have up-firing speakers, but none are attached making it easier to pin point the problems that I found.

 

[lovinthehd]

The up-firing speakers are gone, aren't being used. I have both receivers setup as if they do have up-firing speakers, but none are attached making it easier to pin point the problems that I found.

My point was identical speakers for all r/l/surround positions