Dolby Pro Logic 1 Vs. 2

[macersl]

I currently have a Technics receiver that I am very happy with. However I feel I am not getting enough out of older movie that's not in 5.1 surround. Will I notice a big difference if I upgrade to a PL 2 receiver? How about the DTS equivalent? Also is there any benefit to Digital EX if I am not adding a sixth or seventh speaker?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I currently have a Technics receiver that I am very happy with. However I feel I am not getting enough out of older movie that's not in 5.1 surround. Will I notice a big difference if I upgrade to a PL 2 receiver? How about the DTS equivalent? Also is there any benefit to Digital EX if I am not adding a sixth or seventh speaker?

What are you not getting out of them?
Older movies were on the learning curve, how aggressive the surround channels can be, they weren't

 

[j_garcia]

PLII is a DSP, not a discrete audio format. There is also PLIIx, which is a 7.1 DSP.

DD-EX is technically a 5.1 format, but without the extra speaker, it will just be 5.1 to you. You won't be able to use the EX or DTS-ES processing for the rear center with a 5.1 config. You will be able to select the formats on the DVD, but what you will hear is the 5.1 presentation without the rear center(s) extracted (you won't be missing anything, the sound remains in the existing surround channels).

Having said all that, I prefer PLII to the original PL by a large margin, simply because you have additional control over how the sound is distributed to the speakers.

 

[Duffinator]

Having said all that, I prefer PLII to the original PL by a large margin, simply because you have additional control over how the sound is distributed to the speakers.

I agree. It's a very noticeable difference when watching TV and non DD/DTS movies. But I don't think it's worth upgrading just for PLII or Neo 6. Now if you can come up with some other reasons like multiroom or video switching you will be in business.

 

[MDS]

The difference between the original ProLogic and PLII that nobody has mentioned yet is in how the surround info is steered.

ProLogic is actually 4 channels. The Left and Right surrounds play the exact same content and in addition the channels are band-limited to 7 kHz (or thereabouts, have to look it up to be sure).

PLII creates stereo rears and each channel is full-range. It's still not discrete, but it sounds alot better than ProLogic - IMO even when the source is plain old 2 channel analog that is not surround encoded.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The difference between the original ProLogic and PLII that nobody has mentioned yet is in how the surround info is steered.
.

I knew there was a reason for your participatin
Extra memory bank, different processing up there

 

[smokey007]

ex is nice. 6.1 system with dolby digital ex or thx surrond ex is worth it in my opinion.just add a surround back speaker. noticable difference with movies that are incoded with it.

 

[9f9c7z]

... Also is there any benefit to Digital EX if I am not adding a sixth or seventh speaker?

Seems so, but I can’t tell you the technical reason why. Maybe because DTS has higher resolution than DD, maybe because of mixing techniques, but DTS-ES thru 5.1 kicks the butt out of DD PLII 5.1. Whether or not it is worth replacing a pre/pro to get that difference is a matter of personal choice, but do also consider the very limited availability of DD-EX and DTS-ES software. I suspect we will see a lot more 7.1 programming when the HD DVD stuff becomes available.

Here’s an easy read on the Dolby and DTS formats:

http://www.timefordvd.com/tutorial/SurroundSound.shtml

 

[j_garcia]

I play the ES discrete tracks on my 5.1 setup and it still sounds great. It's not because it's higher resolution, it's just a more aggressive mix and that seems to still translate well into 5.1

 

[9f9c7z]

Note: THX-EX and DD-EX are the same thing, i.e. identical.

Both THX Surround EX and DTS-ES Matrix surround sound encode the surround back channel information into the surround left and surround right channels (similar to the way the center channel is encoded for Dolby Surround Pro-Logic). This cross-channel encoding is referred to as matrix encoding, since the surround back channel is encoded and later decoded (or derived) from those of the surround left and surround right channels. Because of this matrix encoding scheme, the surround back channel is not a true discrete channel and is technically considered a 5.1- channel format. And for this reason, they are sometimes referred to as "Dolby Digital 5.1 EX" or "DTS 5.1 ES". To refer to these matrix encoded Extended Surround formats as 6.1-channel would be wrong.

 

[j_garcia]

DTS ES has two flavors however - matrix and discrete. DTS-ES Discrete is the ONLY true 6.1 format, while the matrix version is functionally the same as DD-EX.

THX-EX is the predecessor to, and essentially became what is now DD-EX. THX worked with Dolby to create this format.

 

[MDS]

DTS ES has two flavors however - matrix and discrete. DTS-ES Discrete is the ONLY true 6.1 format, while the matrix version is functionally the same as DD-EX.

There is some debate as to whether DTS-ES Discrete is truly a 6.1 format. While it is true that there are 6 discrete channels, the 6th (rear) channel is ALSO matrixed into the left and right surround channels - just like the Matrix version. When playing it back in DTS-ES Discrete mode, the rear channel information that is matrixed into the left and right surround channels is cancelled out so that you don't hear it in the surrounds as well as in the rear.

If it were TRULY discrete, the 6th channel would stand alone and would not also exist in the surrounds.

 

[j_garcia]

It has to be that way, so that it is backwards compatible. This is the reason why you can play back a ES discrete track on a 5.1 system.

 

[MDS]

dts-es discrete

I understand why they do it that way, but calling it a discrete 6.1 format is stretching the truth...

 

[9f9c7z]

DTS-ES can optionally support a fully discrete surround back channel. That is, the surround back channel has it own data stream and is truly independent from those of the surround left and surround right channels. This true 6.1-channel format is appropriately called DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 (in contrast to its matrix counterpart, DTS-ES Matrix).

Edit: maybe it’s only discrete when it is decoded, and indiscrete(?) when coded. ???

 

[j_garcia]

It's a rider on the side surround channels' signal, but it is a separate channel (or so I thought). It is not matrixed exactly, it is sort of "fancy" matrixing. The information in that channel is discretely recorded however.

 

[MDS]

That is why i said there is some debate over whether dts-es discrete can be considered truly discrete.

Contrast dts-es discrete with a format that is definitely discrete, like DD 5.1.

DD 5.1 - each and every channel is separate: L, R, C, Ls, Rs and LFE.

DTS-ES Discrete 5.1 - L, R, C, Ls + Rear, Rs + Rear, Rear, LFE.
So the Ls and Rs have the contents of the Rear channel matrixed in and it is only removed on decoding. The result of decoding is 6.1 distinct channels but they weren't entirely distinct to start with.