Does size really matter?!?!

[Reorx]

A normal woman would say no, but she's lying.

Anyways

Subwoofers: Forget about manufacturer, ohm, rms, etc differences. Make them the same for a minute. The only difference is the woofer size.

Subs sizes: 8", 10", 12", 15", +18"

What are the key differences?

Some of the things I have heard....
-Larger the sub, the more air it can move, thus sounding better in larger rooms.
-Larger the sub, the more loose(muddy) it becomes.
-Larger subs can hit lower frequencies.

I ask this because, I notice alot of people here who have 10-12" subs. The larger ones are rarely talked about, or recommended. If more bass is needed, a 2nd sub is added.

Reorx

 

[jaxvon]

You're on the right track. Larger subs have a harder time hitting higher frequencies, but they can often do subsonics that smaller ones can't. While you're right on two things, regarding tightness, the recently reviewed Velodyne subwoofer is a 15" and is definitely tight. Loose or muddy sound comes from poor design and low quality drivers. When you're working with high-quality stuff and good engineering, even a big 18" sub can be tight.

Larger woofers don't have to work as hard to produce the same SPL because they move more air with every stroke. Therefore, operating at the same SPL as a smaller woofer, the larger woofer is under less stress and will therefore last longer and have lower distortion because it isn't stressing itself as close to its limits.

 

[Tomorrow]

"Therefore, operating at the same SPL as a smaller woofer, the larger woofer is under less stress and will therefore last longer and have lower distortion because it isn't stressing itself as close to its limits."


I've heard this before. But has anyone here ever actually had a sub's life measurably shortened as a result of playing it near its limits? Is there data on this somewhere or is this a gut feeling? Thanks.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

"Therefore, operating at the same SPL as a smaller woofer, the larger woofer is under less stress and will therefore last longer and have lower distortion because it isn't stressing itself as close to its limits."


I've heard this before. But has anyone here ever actually had a sub's life measurably shortened as a result of playing it near its limits? Is there data on this somewhere or is this a gut feeling? Thanks.

That's a relative question. I have speakers back from the 80's. They have 12" and 15" woofers, but are part of a floorstanding speaker. The magnets are tiny compared to similar sized powered subwoofers for home and high end car subs. The 80's woofers moved a great deal of air due to their extreme efficiency with very little power. They've lasted 20+ years and were driven at frat party levels. They also had outstanding bass when placed in corners. The new subs offer huge magnets, but need lots of power to get them to move. With larger mangets and more power, you notice tighter, more controlled bass. You can actually over do it, though, with too large a sub. When the sub gets too large, it can't gel with the rest of the system, and you miss out on a lot of the higher end bass frequencies necessary to reproduce the full audio spectrum. I know a few guys who run a 10" sub along with a 15" for that exact reason. It takes a lot of bass management to avoid cancellation, but it's the best system if you are running small woofers in your bookshelves or towers. A single, powerful 12" sub is a nice compromise.

 

[mulester7]

"The new subs offer huge magnets, but need lots of power to get them to move. With larger magnets and more power, you notice tighter, more controlled bass. You can actually over do it, though, with too large a sub"

.....total agreement, Buck, but how large does the subwoofer element have to become for the effect to ascend from being support, enhancement, and accentuation for treasured mains, and become a standout act?....

.....I've had homemade subs using 25 inch woofers that were rated to 300 continuous being pushed by 1000....I've had 18 inch woofers rated to 1000 continuous being hit by the same 1000....both were in quite decent boxes with shelf tuning.....

.....I'm now to the point I feel 12 inch, 4 ohm woofers are the best for the job to be done in the home and be called "sub"....tough and tight 12 inch woofers made to car stereo requirements for longevity, being popped by a strapped amp.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Mule, hope you don't mind. I cleaned up the post a bit.

Mulester7: The new subs offer huge magnets, but need lots of power to get them to move. With larger magnets and more power, you notice tighter, more controlled bass. You can actually over do it, though, with too large a sub"

Total agreement, Buck, but how large does the subwoofer element have to become for the effect to ascend from being support, enhancement, and accentuation for treasured mains, and become a standout act?

I've had homemade subs using 25 inch woofers that were rated to 300 continuous being pushed by 1000. I've had 18 inch woofers rated to 1000 continuous being hit by the same 1000. Both were in quite decent boxes with shelf tuning.

Are you kidding me? 25 inch? I know dual 18" passive subs with 2000 watt Mackie amps do well in clubs, but are absolutely overkill unless you are running some Electro Voice monitors in all corners of the house. We had a few sets of those dual 18" subs in college when djing dances in the student union. We'd set up the system, and would take hours to hone in the sound, because they just didn't sound that good at low levels. They required studio 31 band eq's to iron out. 15's are pushing it IMO in house, but 25"? Geezus

I'm now to the point I feel 12 inch, 4 ohm woofers are the best for the job to be done in the home and be called "sub". Tough and tight 12 inch woofers made to car stereo requirements for longevity, being popped by a strapped amp.

I can relate with you here. Some nice JL Audio or Cadence subs can't be beat in that aspect. Have you seen the new JL Audio home sub? Wow, but get out the checkbook.

 

[mulester7]

.....yes, Buck, 25's....I still have them and would have to go pull them out of the stored boxes to even remember their name....they need to be rebuilt and were used when I got them....I know a guy who knows where a brand new pair of them are somewhere in Oklahoma sitting in an attic in their boxes and the story was the guy wanted 1100 for them....rubber surround....thick rubber.....

.....the same guy knows where 11 pair of brand new Electro-Voice 36 inch woofers are for sale in Michigan I believe it was....60 watts continuous....1400 a pair....the factory suggested speaker enclosure for the 36 inch EV woofers was 8x4x4, and that's feet.....people used to nail the door tight on an emptied-out closet and cut a hole in the door, haha....truth.....

....your opinion that 15 inch woofers are pushing it indoors is my opinion also.....

 

[Privateer]

mulester7 those huge 25" and 36" woofers would suck for hard pounding bass, unless you invented a new matterial that is 20 times stronger than what we are using today.

 

[mulester7]

.....yes, Privateer, many of the recent woofers for cars have metal cones....these are being incorporated into home subs.....

......but I'll tell you, those Electro-Voice 18's I had that were rated at 1000 continuous with a couple of inches of excursion movement could almost hurt you.....

 

[MacManNM]

There is no such thing as "tight" bass. The tight portion of the sound is the fast rise time; this is created in the high frequency driver section of your speakers. Unplug all of your speakers and play only your sub, then you will notice it. I think the word we really should be using is accuracy. Accurate bass.

The larger woofers produce more bass lag. This is why most of your better subs use a 10-12” woofer for HT apps.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

.....yes, Privateer, many of the recent woofers for cars have metal cones....these are being incorporated into home subs.....

......but I'll tell you, those Electro-Voice 18's I had that were rated at 1000 continuous with a couple of inches of excursion movement could almost hurt you.....

Mule, is this your crawl space in your home?

Check out some of these photos. This guy is probably deaf by now.
http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

 

[Reorx]

Thank you guys for the info and fun stories.

I've seen a few of the 18"-25" woofers from the 70's. With magnets almost to large for a single person to carry. They were unrealistic for the house so I wanted to keep it 8"-15".

Anyways, what I am getting from all of this is:
-Larger speakers usually hit the lower frequencies, but can have a difficult time blending in because they cannot get the high bass like the smaller speakers.
-Larger speakers most the time require less power to perform as well as small ones...in the lower freq's.
-Muddy bass is from poorly designed speakers.
-Other people have heard of Electro-voice I have 6 of them, and they are surpisingly clean and crisp sounding, even at high decibles.

Am I missing anything?

Reorx

 

[Privateer]

.....yes, Privateer, many of the recent woofers for cars have metal cones....these are being incorporated into home subs.....

Welcome to 1970!

......but I'll tell you, those Electro-Voice 18's I had that were rated at 1000 continuous with a couple of inches of excursion movement could almost hurt you.....

Then post a link to these magic woofers. I said 25 and 36 inch woofers and you reply back with and 18 inch, read the whole post!

 

[TjMV3]

Does size really matter? A normal woman would say no, but she's lying. Reorx

Well, it's all in the design and application.

Of course your average six inches can do an adequate job, if the design is applied correctly, in order to reach deeper levels. But it would help if you played with those knobby thingies, in order to achieve a good balance.


Eight inches will get you even deeper, but has been known to lack consistency and stamigna.

Of course if you go with a twelve inch, in most cases everyone will be satisfied. But the shaking of furniture and floorboards could cause some discomfort.

Obviously, two and a half inches or three inches will never help in achieving an eargasm, unless you're prepared to put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Privateer]

Well, we could just use this.

 

[mulester7]

Welcome to 1970!



Then post a link to these magic woofers. I said 25 and 36 inch woofers and you reply back with and 18 inch, read the whole post!

.....if 25 and 36 inch woofers were what I wanted, I would still be there....18's and 15's included....

.....Privateer, I checked with my Mother, and she said I could post as I wished.....

 

[Reorx]

Stop hijacking my thread.
Take it to emails / PM's.

[Exactly. I split the thread and moved the Le/Inductance posts to a new "home" -Admin]

Anyways, all 6 of my speakers...except for center channel have 10" woofers in them(speakers rated down to 55hz or 58hz). So I am just going to repair the 15" sub that I have using a 'DAYTON 15" TITANIC MKIII SUBWOOFER' or a cheaper equivalent (or better) if I can find one.

Thank you all for the information on the differences in sub sizes.

Reorx

 

[Privateer]

.....if 25 and 36 inch woofers were what I wanted, I would still be there....18's and 15's included....

You are still not getting the point, the industry does not use huge woofers now days because they are not practical and there performance is poor.

 

[mulester7]

You are still not getting the point, the industry does not use huge woofers now days because they are not practical and their performance is poor.

.....I'd say the point is, they build what they think will sell, and it's all about the almighty snake-skin, Privateer, and they usually concentrate their efforts on full-range mains as the best profit-maker if they are a multi-speaker producer.....

 

[Audioholics]

Le/Inductance thread was split and moved here:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11294