Does it matter to leave the grill on or off a sub?

[Crescendo]

I know that leaving the grills off of speakers will usually help with performance, but can the same be said for subwoofers?

I'd rather keep the grill on my sub to prevent damage, dirt, etc. since it's so low to the floor, but not if it will hinder performance in any way.

 

[Pyrrho]

I know that leaving the grills off of speakers will usually help with performance, but can the same be said for subwoofers?

I'd rather keep the grill on my sub to prevent damage, dirt, etc. since it's so low to the floor, but not if it will hinder performance in any way.

Grills rarely affect performance of any speaker in any significant way. Leave it on to protect it. I recommend that you do that with all of your speakers.

If you doubt this, have a trusted friend come over at night, and have him or her remove or place the grills on your speakers while you are out of the room, and you come into the room with it dark (and with the room from which you are coming dark, so the light does not come into that room, and try to hear the difference, without first knowing whether the grills are on or off. Of course, if the lights on your equipment make it visible, you will need to be blindfolded or take more elaborate steps to stop the light from shining on your speakers. Have a CD start when you are in your listening position (use your remote), and make sure that your friend does not touch the volume control or make any other changes to any settings when removing or placing the grills on your speakers. And have your friend "decide" based on rolling one fair die when you are not in the room; your friend can go with grills on with a roll of 1-3, and grills off with a roll of 4-6. Have your friend keep track of your guesses and whether you are right or not.

You will need to repeat this dozens of times to make sure that you are not getting it right with lucky guesses, as you should guess correctly about 50% of the time if you hear absolutely no difference at all. If the difference were dramatic, you should be right nearly 100% of the time.

Assuming no cheating (i.e., seeing that the grills are on or off, or your friend giving you hints, etc.), I would be surprised if you get much better than 50%. But before you bother with that, put on a CD and listen to your speakers with the grills on, and then with the grills off. If you believe you hear a difference, do the test, but don't bother if you don't believe you actually hear a difference.

 

[tattoo_Dan]

I know that leaving the grills off of speakers will usually help with performance, but can the same be said for subwoofers?

I'd rather keep the grill on my sub to prevent damage, dirt, etc. since it's so low to the floor, but not if it will hinder performance in any way.

I know that my(fronts,center,ss,& sb) Paradigm speakers are designed for per Paradigm to be used with the grills on,it's in the design..[of course I don't know about other brands]
and I have tried them both ways and I do like the sound better with the grills on(at least the 7 speakers).I keep the grills on my subs just because I like the way it looks better(I recovered my sub grills with a different color grill cloth to match my furniture and other paradigm speakers)


but for sub woofers IMO I don't think it will affect performance whether or not a grill is on.

that's just my .02 on it

 

[Crescendo]

Grills rarely affect performance of any speaker in any significant way. Leave it on to protect it. I recommend that you do that with all of your speakers.

If you doubt this, have a trusted friend come over at night, and have him or her remove or place the grills on your speakers while you are out of the room, and you come into the room with it dark (and with the room from which you are coming dark, so the light does not come into that room, and try to hear the difference, without first knowing whether the grills are on or off. Of course, if the lights on your equipment make it visible, you will need to be blindfolded or take more elaborate steps to stop the light from shining on your speakers. Have a CD start when you are in your listening position (use your remote), and make sure that your friend does not touch the volume control or make any other changes to any settings when removing or placing the grills on your speakers. And have your friend "decide" based on rolling one fair die when you are not in the room; your friend can go with grills on with a roll of 1-3, and grills off with a roll of 4-6. Have your friend keep track of your guesses and whether you are right or not.

You will need to repeat this dozens of times to make sure that you are not getting it right with lucky guesses, as you should guess correctly about 50% of the time if you hear absolutely no difference at all. If the difference were dramatic, you should be right nearly 100% of the time.

Assuming no cheating (i.e., seeing that the grills are on or off, or your friend giving you hints, etc.), I would be surprised if you get much better than 50%. But before you bother with that, put on a CD and listen to your speakers with the grills on, and then with the grills off. If you believe you hear a difference, do the test, but don't bother if you don't believe you actually hear a difference.

Thanks for all that.... but I thought it had been conclusively proven that most speakers do perform better without the grills, and not just subjective matter like audio cables.

Can you give me any reputable links to show that grills do not effect speaker performance in any way?

 

[Crescendo]

I know that my(fronts,center,ss,& sb) Paradigm speakers are designed for per Paradigm to be used with the grills on,it's in the design..[of course I don't know about other brands]
and I have tried them both ways and I do like the sound better with the grills on(at least the 7 speakers).I keep the grills on my subs just because I like the way it looks better(I recovered my sub grills with a different color grill cloth to match my furniture and other paradigm speakers)


but for sub woofers IMO I don't think it will affect performance whether or not a grill is on.

that's just my .02 on it

I'm curious as to how and why Paradigm purposely design their speakers to be listened to with the grills on, especially if it doesn't really matter anyway, according to the skeptics. Did they tune them a bit brighter to compensate for the slight damping of sound???

But I tend to agree with you that it wouldn't really matter for subs, since the frequencies are so low and they sit on the floor.

 

[zhimbo]

I know that leaving the grills off of speakers will usually help with performance, but can the same be said for subwoofers?

I'd rather keep the grill on my sub to prevent damage, dirt, etc. since it's so low to the floor, but not if it will hinder performance in any way.

Grills can have a measurable effect on speakers - but when they do, it's on the high frequencies. For subwoofer frequencies, there won't be an issue.

 

[tattoo_Dan]

I'm curious as to how and why Paradigm purposely design their speakers to be listened to with the grills on, especially if it doesn't really matter anyway, according to the skeptics. Did they tune them a bit brighter to compensate for the slight damping of sound???

But I tend to agree with you that it wouldn't really matter for subs, since the frequencies are so low and they sit on the floor.

it does seem to matter with these speakers

http://www.paradigm.com/index.php?view=items&cid=1:General+FAQs&id=69:should-i-play-my-paradigm-speakers-with-the-grills-on-or-off&option=com_quickfaq&Itemid=48

"Paradigm® and Paradigm® Reference speakers are designed with low-diffraction grills that minimize interference from enclosure edges. These grills also incorporate a Controlled Waveguide™ to ensure superior wide-dispersion uniformity. As such, they are meant to be played with grills on."

 

[Pyrrho]

Thanks for all that.... but I thought it had been conclusively proven that most speakers do perform better without the grills, and not just subjective matter like audio cables.

Do you have any reputable source for that, or just a bunch of online posts from golden ears?

Can you give me any reputable links to show that grills do not effect speaker performance in any way?

I don't have any good links for this, but I do have a mildly amusing one with an excerpt from a book put out in the 1950's:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=59093

The matter has been studied for a very long time, and competent speaker designers know what to do with grills, and what not to do with them.

Of course, an incompetent buffoon can put something in front of a speaker that will adversely affect the sound, but I never said that grills can't make a difference.

Listen to your speakers carefully with and without the grills, playing the same CD both ways, as many times as you think necessary, and see if you believe you can hear a difference. If you believe you can, try my test suggested in my earlier post.

Of course, if you have a speaker with a waveguide or other intentional affect in the grill, then that may very well affect the sound. For example:

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/RMV60.htm

But with most speakers, the grill is not intended to affect the sound, and is there to protect the drivers. And this can be done without any affect that is audible to humans.

 

[GranteedEV]

The air moved by some subs can be very turbulent. Nothing is wrong with a grill, but subs don't normally "enjoy" grills either.

 

[billy p]

I like this option...

....

...you still have full view of the driver and it offers up some protection therefore...on or off won't matter much....

 

[just-some-guy]

lets see. you guys are debating whether or not a skimpy piece of nylon is going to effect the "experience" of a product that is intended, ideally, to physically disturb the very structure that you, at the time, occupy.

 

[Ares]

I like this option...

....

...you still have full view of the driver and it offers up some protection therefore...on or off won't matter much....

I knew it was only matter of time before you showed us a pic of your sub again all you need was an excuse. Grill on or off doesn't matter with the sub the grill doesn't have enough mass to be an issue.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I know that leaving the grills off of speakers will usually help with performance, but can the same be said for subwoofers?

I'd rather keep the grill on my sub to prevent damage, dirt, etc. since it's so low to the floor, but not if it will hinder performance in any way.

Help in what way? Flatten the frequency response versus it being on?
A small increase in level at some frequencies and perhaps at the different angles when measure?
Some graphs of measurements do show small variation with grill on and off at some frequencies, not sure if that difference is consistent from maker A to B to C, etc.
Does that show a performance? One should ask how and why? AND, most importantly, is it audible under controlled conditions, like bias controlled and DBT conditions? anything less is speculation.
I am not aware of such evidence that it is audible and results in better performance but I have seen some FR graphs but not sure where. Perhaps Stereophile speaker tests, or Sensible Sound when they published.
It would matter even less on a sub as the JND at those levels is rather high, like several dBs of magnitude compared to the more sensitive band in the 1kHz-4kHz range.

 

[Crescendo]

Do you have any reputable source for that, or just a bunch of online posts from golden ears?




I don't have any good links for this, but I do have a mildly amusing one with an excerpt from a book put out in the 1950's:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=59093

The matter has been studied for a very long time, and competent speaker designers know what to do with grills, and what not to do with them.

Of course, an incompetent buffoon can put something in front of a speaker that will adversely affect the sound, but I never said that grills can't make a difference.

Listen to your speakers carefully with and without the grills, playing the same CD both ways, as many times as you think necessary, and see if you believe you can hear a difference. If you believe you can, try my test suggested in my earlier post.

Of course, if you have a speaker with a waveguide or other intentional affect in the grill, then that may very well affect the sound. For example:

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/RMV60.htm

But with most speakers, the grill is not intended to affect the sound, and is there to protect the drivers. And this can be done without any affect that is audible to humans.

Okay... thanks for all your info, and I will have to read further on this subject, but after checking around, it does appear that some speakers were designed to be used with grills on or off, depending on the manufacturer.

I agree with what your saying, and I know that great speakers can be designed to be used with grills, but couldn't it be possible that's just a best compromise scenario in some cases? That they were designed to sound best while keeping protection and aesthetics in mind, even if they may be a tad better without them?

It seems logical that if you put some obstruction, no matter how thin, in front of speakers that moves around air and sound at you that it could effect performance.
I know it's not the same thing, but if I was speaking through a paper towel, I know I wouldn't sound my best.

Also, I can't perform your test because my speakers are pro monitors that have no grills (I wonder why pro gear/studio monitors don't really use covers like regular ones do if they don't matter). I've also had speakers in years past that had covers/grills that didn't quite stay on very well, so I took them off and they seemed to be sound a little better that way. Needless to say, old habits die hard, and I don't like to use the grill whenever it's feasible.

After checking around, I agree that subs shouldn't matter at all though, with them sitting on the floor with their low frequencies and such.

 

[Pyrrho]

Okay... thanks for all your info, and I will have to read further on this subject, but after checking around, it does appear that some speakers were designed to be used with grills on or off, depending on the manufacturer.

I agree with what your saying, and I know that great speakers can be designed to be used with grills, but couldn't it be possible that's just a best compromise scenario in some cases? That they were designed to sound best while keeping protection and aesthetics in mind, even if they may be a tad better without them?

If the grill diminishes the treble slightly (which is a popular belief, regardless of whether it is true or not), then it may be that the speaker would have excessive treble without the grill, and consequently sound worse. It would all depend on what the frequency response was with, and without, the grill, on which way would be better (if the grill diminished the treble). Your idea that it must somehow be better without the grill is simply unjustified.

It seems logical that if you put some obstruction, no matter how thin, in front of speakers that moves around air and sound at you that it could effect performance.
I know it's not the same thing, but if I was speaking through a paper towel, I know I wouldn't sound my best.

Also, I can't perform your test because my speakers are pro monitors that have no grills (I wonder why pro gear/studio monitors don't really use covers like regular ones do if they don't matter). I've also had speakers in years past that had covers/grills that didn't quite stay on very well, so I took them off and they seemed to be sound a little better that way. Needless to say, old habits die hard, and I don't like to use the grill whenever it's feasible.

After checking around, I agree that subs shouldn't matter at all though, with them sitting on the floor with their low frequencies and such.

Manufacturers sell products to people. Informing them accurately or teaching them about what actually matters is not what brings in money for them. Many manufacturers are interested in not offending audiophiles, and so they often don't contradict favorite beliefs of audiophiles in their sales brochures. If they offend people, those people are not likely to buy. So manufacturers are motivated to not teach people about controversial subjects.

In the case of grills, there are several logical possibilities, including:

1. They affect the sound measurably and audibly.
2. They affect the sound measurably, but not audibly.
3. They do not affect the sound either measurably or audibly.

Only 1 would matter in use by humans. And if it is an extremely slight difference, then it is not terribly important. Also, whether it would be better or worse with the grill would depend upon the particular speaker. Indeed, it might be better in some ways, and worse in others, if it audibly affects the sound. So even if 1 is the case with a particular speaker, it still does not necessarily follow that it will sound better without the grill.

2 is irrelevant, but some fools would be swayed by it to believe that they ought to do something because of it.

3 obviously would not matter.

In the case of pro gear, usually, the speakers are positioned such that damage is unlikely to the drivers once they are in position. And it costs less to not give you grills, so manufacturers like that, and many people believe that grills adversely affect the sound, so they often leave them off. Also, having an "industrial" look is a selling point for an industrial product. Remember, they are selling something, not educating people.

In my personal experience with grills, they typically do not make a dramatic difference one way or the other. Notice two important words in that sentence; "typically" and "dramatic". If a manufacturer wishes to make a grill that does audibly affect the sound, that is obviously possible.

It is also worth remembering that people typically do not notice any difference in sound when a dome tweeter is pushed in versus being undamaged. If you can alter the shape of the driver in a semi-random way without audibly affecting the sound, don't you think it is possible to put a thin piece of cloth, that is designed to not alter the sound, in front of it without the sound being audibly different?

Also, as mentioned in a previous post (to which a link was provided to thread in which an old book that dealt with the issue was copied), different materials for grill cloths have been analyzed and measured. Some materials would affect the sound significantly, and they are therefore not generally selected for use with speakers.

 

[timoteo]

Leave the grills on when not being used so as to protect them then get off your butt & remove them when you listen to them. If & when children, dogs & drunk friends are around but you want to listen to them,guess what, leave the grills on.

Its not rocket science.

We were all thinking it, im just sayin it.....with love...L.O.V.E!!

Enjoy the wonderous improvement in sound when your sexy speakers take off their nylons!!