Does anyone think Ascend's 340SE's would best B&W 602.s3's?

[TJHUB]

For sound quality, staging, and output (in order of importance)?

There sure seems to be a lot of hype about these speakers. I've seen many posts where guys have replaced B&W 6 series and Paradigm Studio 20's and 40's.

My current thoughts are that my 602's are lacking in midbass output and while I'm not certain I really think my B&W's are bright, I fear my room may be bright and I'm just used to a slightly bright coloration in my music. Not to mention I'm just a little curious to try some new speakers especially when they don't cost big $$.

I thinking if I do order the 340SE's for mains and center, if I like them enough I'll keep them. If they're better than my B&W's, I'll put my B&W's on my basement setup. If my B&W's are better, than I'll shut up about their current performance and put the Ascend's on my basement setup. If the Ascends suck (which I'm thinking they don't), I'll just ship them back.

Comments?

 

[mike c]

try to add Monitor Audo to your listening list ... these are available in store - go to the store to audition.

with a good discount, the MA's are what I consider bang for buck B&W killers.

 

[TJHUB]

try to add Monitor Audo to your listening list ... these are available in store - go to the store to audition.

with a good discount, the MA's are what I consider bang for buck B&W killers.

The last time I auditioned MA's was about 4 years ago and found them to be extremely harsh. I think they were the silver line...not sure.

I'll also have to tell you that the closest dealer is over 150 miles away in the next state from me.

 

[mike c]

i see. good luck on your speaker quest then! I believe the 'hunt' for THE speaker is much more fun than actually owning the speakers.

 

[TJHUB]

i see. good luck on your speaker quest then! I believe the 'hunt' for THE speaker is much more fun than actually owning the speakers.

I agree! I can't tell you how jealous I am of some of these guys that get to audition or own so many speakers in their homes where it really counts. I hate 99% of audio stores. You get to work with morons and bad setups most of the time.

I'm really leaning towards ID companies with decent return policies, but I don't want to purchase anything unless I'm fairly certain I'll keep them. I'm really close to ordering the Ascends.

 

[MUDSHARK]

I have never heard the 600 series but the 700 series are more detailed than the Ascend 340 (also three times as expensive). The Ascend are so neutral that many consider them bright in an untreated room. You must be the judge.

 

[TJHUB]

I just wanted to update this thread with some audition news:

I decided to stop at a Paradigm dealer (one I hate) and audition what I could. They had Studio 20's, 40's, 100's, and S2's ready to go so I listened to each pair full range (no subs).

First up was the 40's which I felt I'd be most interested in hearing. They were perfectly setup in a listening room connected to a Sony 5300ES receiver. The guy helping me was great to work with and we bounced through a demo disc I made. The sound was TERRIBLE! They sounded very...mechanical. That's about the best way I can describe it. It certainly wasn't good at all. When I told the guy that I was working with that these 40's didn't sound like the Paradigms I remember at all; he agreed but offered no explanation. I don't *think* it had anything to do with the Sony as I just upgraded my DA4ES with little improvement going the Emotiva gear I just purchased. Sure the Emo gear is better, but my Sony stuff never sounded bad like this.

We then moved onto the 100's. The guy puts my disc in some Anthem gear and the 100's fire up. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM!! All I could hear was what sounded like an SVS sub about 30db too hot. WOW, these things can put out some clean deep base. I was impressed for a few seconds, but then asked the guy what was up? He walked back over to the Anthem stuff (yes, believe it or not, I actually had to ask him to check ). Turns out a previous listener must have jacked the bass way up. I saw the guy zero it out again and things were much better. This time the Paradigms sounded like I remembered...beautiful. Nice overall tone and great dynamic range. It's hard to find any fault with these things; I was impressed. They really made me want them for full range music listening and just use my sub for LFE. What I really decided is just how good these 100's made my B&W's sound. In other words, if I wasn't going with floorstanders for full range music listening, these 100's would be much if any upgrade at all for me.

I then moved onto the 20's just to see what I thought. I was only listening to the 20's to compare bass output with the 40's and my B&W's. Needless to say the the 20's were more anemic than my 602's for full range, but I did consider them to sound the same as the 100's sonically speaking but of course without the midbass/bass output.

Since the S2's were right there, the guy hooked them up to the Anthem gear and I had a quick listen. To be honest there was a slight tonal difference, but I didn't detect any increase in clarity or imaging. I certainly wouldn't spend the extra cash on them. Beautiful though. They looked impressive to say the least.

Overall I really think if I owned Paradigm Studio's I would be happy. More than with B&W's, I'm not sure... I felt that my B&W's have a slightly more balanced midrange, where I thought the Paradigm's were a little reserved. Maybe it was the Anthem gear as I'm just not familiar with Anthem's sound. I'm guessing I would adjust to it, but I fear side by side with my setup, I'd prefer my current setup to what I heard today (40's aside as there was obviously something wrong).

I will say that I have a slight attraction to some full range floorstanders. But I also have a slight attraction to many things I don't have. It's hard to say just how they'd perform in my room. One thing is for sure, anyone with Studio 100's is a lucky bastage!!

So the question still remains... Do I try the Ascend 340SE's or not. I have to be honest here, but I've read so many great things about those little Sierra's that I'm itching to try them. My only reservation is that they are so little...

On a side note: I did stop at the B&W dealer to have a listen to the new 683's. My wife and kids were DONE auditioning speakers so I decided to make it a quick stop. I really like the owner a lot and he gave me a great price on a pair of 683's and an HTM-61 last week over the phone (this is wear my last two sets of B&W's were purchased). I walk in and a guy asks to help me. I ask for the owner and he says he's out for the day. I then proceed to talk to this guy and ask about the new 6 series B&W's and how he feels they compare to the previous generation. He proceeds to tell me how they are made in China now and that the 600 series uses FST drivers like the 8 series. He shows me the FST driver on the 684 and I stop him. I basically can't stand this friggin' idiot anymore and I tell him that the 684 doesn't have an FST driver and he doesn't need to open his sales speech with facts like B&W's are made in China. I thanked him for his time, gathered up the family, and left. Moron!!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Try the Ascends if you wont loose much on the deal. They are great on paper and I like how the 170's sound.

I also found MAs to be harsh and I tried the RS-6.

My 40's sound really good and it sounds like the dealer left out the terminal jumper when you listened to them. Give them another shot and yes, they need a sub.

The sig series sound amazing to me but hey, that's just my ears.

In all truth, if I were you, I would start with what you have and some room treatments.

 

[rnatalli]

Ascends are excellent speakers, but you can only determine whether you like them or not by hearing them. I personally don't like Ascends. They're way too laid back and too neutral which sounds lifeless to me. However, you stated that you find MA bright so Ascends may be more to your liking. I'd also take a look at the av123 offerings.

 

[jaxvon]

The 170s look great on paper. They make an excellent "blank slate" speaker that can be EQ'd to your listening preference (lowering the treble, flat out to 20kHz often sounds 'bright'). I would personally modify them with damping material and better insulation, but that is just me.

 

[gus6464]

On a side note: I did stop at the B&W dealer to have a listen to the new 683's. My wife and kids were DONE auditioning speakers so I decided to make it a quick stop. I really like the owner a lot and he gave me a great price on a pair of 683's and an HTM-61 last week over the phone (this is wear my last two sets of B&W's were purchased). I walk in and a guy asks to help me. I ask for the owner and he says he's out for the day. I then proceed to talk to this guy and ask about the new 6 series B&W's and how he feels they compare to the previous generation. He proceeds to tell me how they are made in China now and that the 600 series uses FST drivers like the 8 series. He shows me the FST driver on the 684 and I stop him. I basically can't stand this friggin' idiot anymore and I tell him that the 684 doesn't have an FST driver and he doesn't need to open his sales speech with facts like B&W's are made in China. I thanked him for his time, gathered up the family, and left. Moron!!

Why get so upset at the guy just because he said the new 6xx series are made in China? Some people who are familiar with B&W and owned older lines would actually care to know that. Although I am not defending that he mistook the 684 for the 683 which actually has the FST driver, it still sounds pretty snobbish on your part to do that.

 

[TJHUB]

Why get so upset at the guy just because he said the new 6xx series are made in China? Some people who are familiar with B&W and owned older lines would actually care to know that. Although I am not defending that he mistook the 684 for the 683 which actually has the FST driver, it still sounds pretty snobbish on your part to do that.

You can think that I was "snobbish", but if you knew me, you'd know that I'm far from it.

I want to buy ID because listening to speakers at dealers is far from an enjoyable experience. To be honest, usually they're the snobs. I'm a good and friendly person. As a matter of fact, two weeks ago when I stopped in at this very dealer, I was approached by the owner. I asked about the new 6 series sound and he gave me his best interpretation of the *SOUND*. He didn't mention the China thing until the end. Why? BECAUSE THAT MATTERS THE LEAST! I couldn't possibly care less about where a speaker is made if it sounds good. I told him I was just looking around and we spent almost an hour BS'ing with him showing me all the 8 series B&W's in listening rooms powered by Classe gear. Cool stuff, just way too much for me!

Trust me, the guy I talked to was a goof at best. When he pointed out the "FST" driver, he was actually touching and pointing to BOTH drivers on the 684's. But in his defense, they were both the pretty yellow color. Isn't it this man's job to know his products if he's selling them? I even asked him if he was VERY familiar with the B&W's and his answer was something to the affect of "absolutely" as I recall. While I really don't consider myself to be a snob, I do have very little patients for morons. Unfortunately, I found this guy to be a moron. I'll also mention that the nice guy at the Paradigm dealer did a rather poor demo job as stated in a couple of spots in my earlier post. I had no snobbish remarks to him. I was just disappointed. I mean they will only sell at MSRP, shouldn't I get more for my money there? They do have nice facilities though; really impressive. I suppose the Paradigm guy wasn't as much of a sales dill-rod as the B&W guy. I least he didn't make stuff up and he didn't point out useless information to me.

 

[gus6464]

You can think that I was "snobbish", but if you knew me, you'd know that I'm far from it.

I want to buy ID because listening to speakers at dealers is far from an enjoyable experience. To be honest, usually they're the snobs. I'm a good and friendly person. As a matter of fact, two weeks ago when I stopped in at this very dealer, I was approached by the owner. I asked about the new 6 series sound and he gave me his best interpretation of the *SOUND*. He didn't mention the China thing until the end. Why? BECAUSE THAT MATTERS THE LEAST! I couldn't possibly care less about where a speaker is made if it sounds good. I told him I was just looking around and we spent almost an hour BS'ing with him showing me all the 8 series B&W's in listening rooms powered by Classe gear. Cool stuff, just way too much for me!

Trust me, the guy I talked to was a goof at best. When he pointed out the "FST" driver, he was actually touching and pointing to BOTH drivers on the 684's. But in his defense, they were both the pretty yellow color. Isn't it this man's job to know his products if he's selling them? I even asked him if he was VERY familiar with the B&W's and his answer was something to the affect of "absolutely" as I recall. While I really don't consider myself to be a snob, I do have very little patients for morons. Unfortunately, I found this guy to be a moron. I'll also mention that the nice guy at the Paradigm dealer did a rather poor demo job as stated in a couple of spots in my earlier post. I had no snobbish remarks to him. I was just disappointed. I mean they will only sell at MSRP, shouldn't I get more for my money there? They do have nice facilities though; really impressive. I suppose the Paradigm guy wasn't as much of a sales dill-rod as the B&W guy. I least he didn't make stuff up and he didn't point out useless information to me.

I won't get into the whole ID vs B&M argument as it's never ending and everyone has different opinions on it. But if you want to order the Ascend and try them out in your home, why not? You have nothing to lose in that aspect as they can be returned (well maybe shippings costs). While I haven't heard the Ascend I think you would be doing a horizontal upgrade instead of vertical. The speakers will definitely sound different when compared to your B&W, but not superior different. Of course you will have the Ascend fans come in and say they are better and then vice versa for the B&W folk. I consider the Studios a vertical upgrade from the Ascend and the B&W. I also consider the Sierra to be more of a vertical upgrade than the 340.

 

[silversurfer]

gus, if you haven't heard them, what do you base your perceptions on? Not that you are wrong, just trying to understand where you are coming from, especially because of your past posts.

The one review I have read of the Sierras in which Paradigm was mention, puts them "close" to the S2.

How do you feel about Dynaudio? There was a GTG recently that had the S1.4, a $3000/pr speaker, and some attending the GTG liked the Sierra more, but others liked the S1.4 more.

What would you consider an upgrade from your Mirages, and why?

TJ,
I actually own Ascends(340SE's), and actually like them better than the Studios. I have also heard the B&W 600 series, that was a while ago so I am sure it was not the current series, but I felt the Ascends were much cleaner through the midrange, and from reading your posts, I am not sure that will be something that appeals to you or not.

 

[TJHUB]

gus, if you haven't heard them, what do you base your perceptions on? Not that you are wrong, just trying to understand where you are coming from, especially because of your past posts.

The one review I have read of the Sierras in which Paradigm was mention, puts them "close" to the S2.

How do you feel about Dynaudio? There was a GTG recently that had the S1.4, a $3000/pr speaker, and some attending the GTG liked the Sierra more, but others liked the S1.4 more.

What would you consider an upgrade from your Mirages, and why?

TJ,
I actually own Ascends(340SE's), and actually like them better than the Studios. I have also heard the B&W 600 series, that was a while ago, but I felt the Ascends were much cleaner through the midrange, from reading your posts, I am not sure that will be something that appeals to you or not.

Thanks for your input. You are not the first person to say something like this. If I was held at gunpoint and forced to give a short and sweet difference between my B&W's and the Paradigm Studio's, I'd say something to the affect of the Paradigm's have a sharper, more pronounced tweeter while my B&W's seem to have more midrange focus. Both speakers sound "good", this is just a difference.

Here's my thoughts after today. When I was writing the earlier posts on this thread today, I was listening to my demo disc from today on my setup. I think I like the B&W's more, but with so little time with the Paradigm's I can't be sure. However, the one thing that bugs me about my B&W's is that pronounced midrange. I think that is what is making all my jazz music really shine, but is not so pleasing for other genres of music. I really like Lenny Kravitz's 5 album. It sounds great in my car, but doesn't sound so good on my home setup. I also really love Nine Inch Nails and until just recently I couldn't stand listening to the stuff on the B&W's. A couple of audioholics got me to change the toe on my B&W's (I went from on axis to about 25 degrees off axis. Jazz still sound pretty sweet, my center stage is less focused but bigger (I like it), and Nine Inch Nails now sounds very acceptable.

In that same thread, one of those audioholics also mentioned that my room looks bright. I never felt that way listening to music, but I did some stupid little tests the other day and I've come to realize that the room is rather revealing (or bright as they say). These are some of the reasons I was thinking that just maybe the Ascend 340SE's may just work for me. I really like my B&W's a lot, but they seem to genre trap me. Maybe the Ascends will change that?

Anyway, I was really just trying to get a good idea if my thinking was good or if many of you guys would think that I was wasting my time with Ascend. Realistically I could live with the sound that I have. Maybe I have some other tweaking I could do (room treatments, speaker positioning, or even some sort of EQ). I'm not sure...

 

[TJHUB]

I won't get into the whole ID vs B&M argument as it's never ending and everyone has different opinions on it. But if you want to order the Ascend and try them out in your home, why not? You have nothing to lose in that aspect as they can be returned (well maybe shippings costs). While I haven't heard the Ascend I think you would be doing a horizontal upgrade instead of vertical. The speakers will definitely sound different when compared to your B&W, but not superior different. Of course you will have the Ascend fans come in and say they are better and then vice versa for the B&W folk. I consider the Studios a vertical upgrade from the Ascend and the B&W. I also consider the Sierra to be more of a vertical upgrade than the 340.

I forgot to mention one of the things that most attracts me to ID rather than just the fact that the middle man and marketing costs are not there or dramatically lower. At both the B&W and Paradigm dealers I asked if I could return the speakers at all if I did not like them. Unfortunately both dealers basically said no. Neither had demos set either. I realize I'm asking for a lot, but is it a lot when ID companies are doing it. I really like the idea of purchasing speakers and trying them in my room and on my gear. I'll gladly pay shipping and any cost if I were to damage something, but having no choice with local dealers is unattractive.

I also realize that ID basically have to it this way or who would ever buy the things, right? Still it make me feel a lot better about taking the risk.

 

[gus6464]

gus, if you haven't heard them, what do you base your perceptions on? Not that you are wrong, just trying to understand where you are coming from, especially because of your past posts.

The one review I have read of the Sierras in which Paradigm was mention, puts them "close" to the S2.

How do you feel about Dynaudio? There was a GTG recently that had the S1.4, a $3000/pr speaker, and some attending the GTG liked the Sierra more, but others liked the S1.4 more.

What would you consider an upgrade from your Mirages, and why?

TJ,
I actually own Ascends(340SE's), and actually like them better than the Studios. I have also heard the B&W 600 series, that was a while ago so I am sure it was not the current series, but I felt the Ascends were much cleaner through the midrange, and from reading your posts, I am not sure that will be something that appeals to you or not.

I've read that thread and all the posts I read had the Dynaudio as the best of the bunch. I've actually heard the S1.4 next to the PSB M2 and Dali Mentor 2 with the Focus 140 thrown in afterwards. I liked the Focus 140 the least out of all of them and while the Contour was a lot better, it just didn't really stand out when compared to the PSB and Dali. My favorite out of all four was the Mentor 2 with the PSB a close second. But that doesn't mean the Dynaudio wasn't bad, I guess Dynaudio isn't my flavor.

Now based on your opinions you say the 340 beats the Studio. So would it be possible that the B&W 600 series are better than the Studio as well? Also my friend and I auditioned the Studio 40 and then the B&W 685 and he liked the B&W more. So much in fact that he bought them on the spot. I myself preferred the Studio 40 over the B&W.

I know my HT speakers aren't the best and I don't even recommend push to anyone. If anyone asks about the mirage I always tell them that it's either love or hate so it's up to them to find out. I have the mirage in my HT and some Epos ELS-3 on my 2ch (which will be replaced on Tues with Dali Ikon 2). Even though the ELS-3 were half the price of the mirage they have a better midrange. The mirage have a fuller sound of course as they are bigger and tweeter is actually a bit better as well but my pet pieve is midrange and that's why I bought the Epos. Now the Dali are in another class when it comes to those two. As a matter of fact in the affordable audio shootout between the 340, Dana 630, Acculine A3, B&W 805S and others the Ascend didn't even stand out. The Acculine and Dana were the stars of the show. So what does that tell you? Just because you find your 340 to better than the Studio doesn't mean everyone will think the same. And that is why I consider the 340 to be a horizontal upgrade to from what the OP has.

 

[gus6464]

Thanks for your input. You are not the first person to say something like this. If I was held at gunpoint and forced to give a short and sweet difference between my B&W's and the Paradigm Studio's, I'd say something to the affect of the Paradigm's have a sharper, more pronounced tweeter while my B&W's seem to have more midrange focus. Both speakers sound "good", this is just a difference.

Here's my thoughts after today. When I was writing the earlier posts on this thread today, I was listening to my demo disc from today on my setup. I think I like the B&W's more, but with so little time with the Paradigm's I can't be sure. However, the one thing that bugs me about my B&W's is that pronounced midrange. I think that is what is making all my jazz music really shine, but is not so pleasing for other genres of music. I really like Lenny Kravitz's 5 album. It sounds great in my car, but doesn't sound so good on my home setup. I also really love Nine Inch Nails and until just recently I couldn't stand listening to the stuff on the B&W's. A couple of audioholics got me to change the toe on my B&W's (I went from on axis to about 25 degrees off axis. Jazz still sound pretty sweet, my center stage is less focused but bigger (I like it), and Nine Inch Nails now sounds very acceptable.

In that same thread, one of those audioholics also mentioned that my room looks bright. I never felt that way listening to music, but I did some stupid little tests the other day and I've come to realize that the room is rather revealing (or bright as they say). These are some of the reasons I was thinking that just maybe the Ascend 340SE's may just work for me. I really like my B&W's a lot, but they seem to genre trap me. Maybe the Ascends will change that?

Anyway, I was really just trying to get a good idea if my thinking was good or if many of you guys would think that I was wasting my time with Ascend. Realistically I could live with the sound that I have. Maybe I have some other tweaking I could do (room treatments, speaker positioning, or even some sort of EQ). I'm not sure...

OP I think that what's bugging you with your B&W is that they are forward. Most B&W's are so I would recommend the following two brands for you to check out: Dali and PSB.

Dali are the more laid back of the two with the PSB being more balanced. I bet that you would find the Dali better for jazz and the PSB for rock based on what you are saying. But nevertheless give both of them a try.

 

[silversurfer]

gus, what I am trying to convey is that you need to hear for yourself before making judgements.

I have not heard the latest 600 series, but based I what I heard before, the Studios were my preference.

It was the Acculine A1 and Dana 630 in that listening session that you mention that stood out, but if you read there was another group that didn't like the A1. Also, you don't read much Acculine lately, that should tell you something. There are no professional reviews of either as well. I know you do not like the "hype" that ID speakers generate, but you have to look at all the information flow and where it comes from.

If TJ likes the 340's more than the 602's, would you still call it a "horizontal" upgrade?

Like you posted earlier, the best thing to do is just try them.

 

[gus6464]

gus, what I am trying to convey is that you need to hear for yourself before making judgements.

I have not heard the latest 600 series, but based I what I heard before, the Studios were my preference.

It was the Acculine A1 and Dana 630 in that listening session that you mention that stood out, but if you read there was another group that didn't like the A1. Also, you don't read much Acculine lately, that should tell you something. There are no professional reviews of either as well. I know you do not like the "hype" that ID speakers generate, but you have to look at all the information flow and where it comes from.

If TJ likes the 340's more than the 602's, would you still call it a "horizontal" upgrade?

Like you posted earlier, the best thing to do is just try them.

It would depend on how much TJ likes the 340 to constitute as an upgrade. If for example let's say he preferred the midrange of the 340 (which he is mostly looking for), but still preferred the highs of B&W would you consider it a vertical upgrade? I consider an upgrade vertical when the speaker does everything flat out better than the one it is replacing. For example in my case of my Ikon 2 I won't be upgrading until I find a speaker that is flat out better in every aspect. And from what I've heard I don't see that happening until I can afford the Helicon 300 MKII or something even better (maybe Monitor Audio PL100 from what I've read).