Do we miss out on bass with the 24 bit audio formats ?

H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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T

TSC-17

Audiophyte
I made another post on a similar subject, but thinking it was a hardware problem. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7238

I have purchase several SACD and DVD-A discs here recently, and have been very dissapointed in the bass output in particular when compared to my standard cd's, and especially my DTS recordings. As far as the rest of the sound is concerned, I haven't been able to notice any difference in quality in the SACD format as opposed to others.

In my experience so far, DTS recordings offer some of the best overall sound and dynamic range available. Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth, Freddie Ravel's Sol to Soul, and Steely Dan's Two Against Nature are my personal reference recordings.

Equipment:
Denon AVR-5700 receiver
Marantz D6500 Universal Player
Mirage OM-9 mains
Phase Technology PC3 Center
Phase Technology PC Surround, surrounds
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I've found the bass of SACD & DVD-A to be stunning. Literally unprecedented in quality and power. I wonder if you guys aren't experiencing some bass management problems...
 
H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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krabapple

krabapple

Banned
haysonics said:
Firstly, I am not referring to sub woofers but just the bass that comes out of my 10 inch bass speakers.

Maybe I am used to the "compressed" sound of 16Bit compared to the "full dynamic range" of 24Bit but I wonder whether we are missing out on some bass when listening to either SACD or DVD-A discs? For example, I compared both the SACD of Dark Side of the Moon and the DVD-A of Pet Sounds with my original CD's. The CD's that I own were the ones released in the 80's and early 90's before mastering engineers went overboard with compression. I feel that the 24Bit versions are missing a lot of bass. I haven't got record versions of these albums to compare against the 24Bit but maybe you do ?

What do you folks think of the bass you are hearing with your SACD's and DVD-A's ?

I haven't had this problem.
- Are you comparing the *analog* stereo output of CDs to the analog stereo SACD/DVD-A tracks?
- Are you selecting the 2-channel version on the SACD and DVD-A discs (and not the front L/R channel of the multichannel version)?



Secondly, If you agree with my heretical suggestion I offer the following speculation as to the cause. Of course the dymanic range of 24Bit is wonderful when listening to an orchestra (classical music). The issue for me is with rock music. Take Dark Side Of The Moon. Beautifuly engineered by Alan Parsons. And like on all classic rock records, Alan pushed those faders into the red to get the analogue tape to compress. What you hear is compressed drums, bass, guitars. That's the big rock sound. My speculation is that when you take a classic rock master tape, with its limited dynamic range, and transpose it into 24Bit dymanic range you (in effect) stretch out (decompress) the recording to fill the 24Bit space and lose the intended compressed sound of the master tape.

What do you folks think ?
A compressed source tape will still sound 'compressed' in exactly the same way at 24 bit resolution, assuming no other dynamics processing is applied. You haven't 'decompressed' it by transferring it at greater bitdepth.
Rather than expanding a box to fill a larger room, what you've done is simply place the same-sized box in a larger room.

In the case of rock music analog masters, where the dynamic range is rarely even 16 bit-equivalent, the use of higher bit depths for transfers is more of a safeguard against degradation artefacts during digitial editing and processing, than an audible enhancement per se.
 
H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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T

TSC-17

Audiophyte
I did a bit of research myself on the subject, and have found it to be a issue with alot of people. Unless you have a very sophisticated SACD player or a processor with bass management of the analog inputs, then you're probably going to experience this.

I received overwhelming support of the Outlaw Audio ICBM, which is a very sophisticated bass management unit, for only $250. www.outlawaudio.com

Mine is due in any day now, and I'll let you know how it went.
 
H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
haysonics said:
Firstly, I am not referring to sub woofers but just the bass that comes out of my 10 inch bass speakers.

Maybe I am used to the "compressed" sound of 16Bit compared to the "full dynamic range" of 24Bit
haysonics said:
16 bit CD is not compressed but it referrs to the dynamic range of the softest to the loudest signals, 96dB spl, in this case. You will be hard pressed to find such a CD recordin in the first place and second, a system to reproduce it.
Your room would have to be 20dB spl quiet, or so.
There are no true 24 bit recordings, 144dB spl dynamic range recording. It is in the thermal noise of the signals. So, it is not the formats fault.


but I wonder whether we are missing out on some bass when listening to either SACD or DVD-A discs?

As others posted, maybe a hardware issue of bass management?


For example, I compared both the SACD of Dark Side of the Moon and the DVD-A of Pet Sounds with my original CD's. The CD's that I own were the ones released in the 80's and early 90's before mastering engineers went overboard with compression. I feel that the 24Bit versions are missing a lot of bass. I haven't got record versions of these albums to compare against the 24Bit but maybe you do ?

A number of reasons why this may be, but it is certainly not the fault of 16 bits or 24 bits.

My speculation is that when you take a classic rock master tape, with its limited dynamic range, and transpose it into 24Bit dymanic range you (in effect) stretch out (decompress) the recording to fill the 24Bit space and lose the intended compressed sound of the master tape.

What do you folks think ?


No. If you record the master tape, unaltered, you should have the same on the 24 bit, nothing 'decompressed.' You need to alter the mixing.
 
H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
haysonics said:
My point is that CD with 96db "theoretical" dynamic range sounds compressed compared to the 144db "theoretical" dynamic range of DVD-A.
1. 144dB is impossible at this point in time. Thermal noise sets in at approximately 120dB in best-case scenarios in present equipment.

2. 120dB is impossible to use -- room noisefloor(35dB for a very quiet room away from traffic or HVAC noises is the baseline) +120dB is starting at 155dB. Wow. Impossible unless you have set up a huge P.A. concert array in your living room! Then, if used it would cause hearing damage, quickly! Even the 96dB range of CD can not be used in home playback under any normal circumstance.....96+35dB(noisefloor): 131dB!

3. 75dB[1] is the optimum minimum signal to noise ratio for transparent audio playback with speakers.

4. Most recordings use a fraction of the dynamic range available with the CD format! Performa statsitical analysis on sections of tracks using Cool Edit or some other capable audio program, you will find that most pop music, for example, may use 20-25dB average of total range, staying in a 10dB envelope most of the time! Even Jazz is commonly forced into such ranges today by the record companies. Uncompressed classical, btw, may use around 80-85 dB of actual range typically on a very dynamic work.

5. The music is does NOT have to be compressed just by changing from 24 bit to 16 bit space. The conversion retains the same relative amplitude levels of the data. If more than 16 bits were actually used in the first place -- this would not be usable anyways -- refer to no. 2. Changing to 16bit space would do one thing: raise the noisefloor..... that's all, unless you specifically utilize a dynamic compression filter/process. Actually, most CDs with quiet spots will have noise.... due to the original recording(s), not the CD format.


I think the sound of bass on DVD-A/SACD is similar to a good pressing of a record. I think DVD-A and an audiophile pressing of a record are on an equal par.
If DVD-A and SACD are on par with a phono record -- this is a sad state of technology. Phonograph transfers are not accurate, have poor noise performance excepting very special conditions, ritualistic cleaning and handeling procedures. The phono pressing and playback process, on the best turntablels/cartridges produces THD[2] within human audible thresholds! True, you may not recognize it as discrete distortion, but it is present and has an audible effect due to it's magnitude!

But I think CD sounds different. I speculate this is because of a decreased dynamic range compared to these other formats.
Speculation, indeed! This is not supported by any credible research or data.

However, some have performed objective listening tests. For example, this example done in a studio, using analog masterape to a ADC-->DAC process at 16 bits and double-blind tested:

http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_digi.htm

-Chris

[1]
Signal-to-Noise Ratio Requirement for Digital Transmission Systems
Spikofski, Gerhard
AES Preprint: 2196

[2]
Just Detectable Distortion Levels
James Moire, F.I.E.E.
Wireless World, Feb. 1981, Pages 32-34 and 38
 
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H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
haysonics said:
I accept that the majority of listeners don't hear a difference between analogue and 16bit digital but I am not one of those. I also hear the difference between 16bit and 24bit. All the technical data in the world will not convince me that 16bit is transparant to source (I find 24Bit pretty close though). Furthermore, the majority of the audiophiles out there agree on this point.
Unfortunately, the number of audiophiles(or even recording engineers) that *agree* are irrelevant to the fact(s). What precautions have they taken to insure a fair comparison? DBT? Level matched comparison(s)? Measured and conformed signal integrity between the compared systems? IME, I find that the overwhelming majority of people take no precautions whatsoever, and of those that do, most overlook critical details during analysis and/or testing procedure(s).

-Chris
 
H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
haysonics said:
The only problem is that the majority of people don't have the level of audio perception to detect the difference between, say, an analogue master tape and a 16 Bit copy.
It has not been established that there is an audible difference with grater bitrates for music playback purposes. Your argument here operates on an assumed premise.

I don't mean this as a criticism of anyone. I find it takes very conscientious listening over a number of years to hear the differences.
Still based on an assumed premise...

What those testing laboratories should do is use recording engineers as lab rats rather than Joe Public. Of course, not all recording engineers hear the differences but the overwhelming majority do.
It appears that you have not paid attention to the research to date. It is standard to use ONLY musicians and audio professionals as the test subjects in order increase the statisical value of the results to insure transparency on the research projects that established audibility of differences, where transparency was the issue. Even the ABX test I referenced eariler(which was not a standard setting project--but just an experimental situation) was composed of many audio professionals.

With regards to 24 Bit, one of my friends (who is not in the industry) was so surprised at the difference compared to CD that he bought a new Hi Res player the next day.
No offence intended, but I doubt your demonstration was a fair one if this was the outcome.

-Chris
 
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H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
haysonics said:
Sony acquired Columbia records and discovering crumbling master tapes in Columbias vaults, set about the task of archiving. With the limitations of 16/44.1 obvious to everyone at Sony, they set out to develop an archival format that was as close to tranparant to source as they could obtain.
A more cynical observer might question that bit of Sony corporate urban legend and say the true limitation of the 44.1/16 Bit Redbook format was that the patent expired, forcing Sony to find a new revenue stream to replace lost royalties. Since they couldn't patent any format based merely upon PCM with a longer word length and/or higher sampling rate, they opted to create an entirely kind of digital. Had it succeeded commercially to the point that it became the new standard, everyone would have again been forced to pay Sony & Philips for every disc they made, and all would have been right with the corporate world.

Sony has not been very lucky as of late- basically all of their proprietary products have been failures, with the notable exception of the Playstation. BetaMax, the MiniDisc, the ATRAC encoding system, etc all have been commercial duds. Looks like the SACD format is joining them on the bonepile of electronics history, for better or worse.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
haysonics said:
Sony acquired Columbia records and discovering crumbling master tapes in Columbias vaults, set about the task of archiving. With the limitations of 16/44.1 obvious to everyone at Sony, they set out to develop an archival format that was as close to tranparant to source as they could obtain. They followed a new and simple idea and developed Direct Stream Digital and its carrier, SACD.
Of course, Sony did not refer to or base their presumptions on anything of merit in their claims of superiority in reference to sound quality. However, a higher bitrate than 16 bits is useful for archival and recording, due to the headroom provided for editing, unpredictable recording circumstances, etc. But this is a different matter as compared to playback. But PCM 24 bit is superior to DSD systems -- PCM is widely used, very cheap and understood and a better system overall for delivery, superior SNR(note that DSD has rapidly decling SNR as frequency exceeds 10kHz, with vast amounts as ultrasonic band is reached) and I don't understand, frankly, how anyone ever swallowed the poo-poo that Sony's marketing team dished out in the first place.

I know my viewpoint is radical.
Radical and unsubstantiated. :D

-Chris
 
N

nate dog

Enthusiast
how about this?

Just a thought (and possibly not very intelligent)... CD's market is for everyone. There are probably a lot of CD's played on $50 portable radios. SACD and DVD-A are more than likely going to be played on higher end systems that probably have good bass response. Maybe the sound engineers of CD's over emphasize the base levels to help out the lower end systems (which are probably the majority of the market share). Maybe the sound engineers of hi-res audio are producing what they feel is a more "correct" level of bass if played on a higher end system with decend bass response.

Just a guess...
 
H

haysonics

Enthusiast
Problem solved !
Thanks to everyone who responded. For those interested, the issue was that I had told my Pioneer DV-667A that I only wanted to hear the 2 channel mix of SACD's/DVD-A's but also told it that I wanted to hear movies in 5.1 The Pioneer decided that as I did have 6 speakers it would feed the 2 channel mixes to all 6 speakers. I knew it was doing this and turned my other speakers off whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A. For some reason, the Pioneer was not sending low frequencies to the front speakers whenever I was playing either a SACD or DVD-A but was doing so for CD's and movies. Really weird. A lot of people responded assuming it was the now famous issue of a an older model player not having bass managent. Well the DV-667A has bass management, and decent bass management at that. So I fixed the problem by going into the settings menu and telling it I had only 2 speakers attached. The problem is that now everytime I want to play a movie in 5.1 (which is everytime I play a movie) I have to go into the settings menu and tell it I have 6 speakers connected. And if I forget to change it back again whenever I play a SACD/DVD-A 2 channel mix I get poor bass response. Pioneer, you winner !!
 
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