Do I really have to match all speakers?

[corysmith01]

I just bought a new receiver, an Onkyo TX-SR602. It was a nice step up from my Sony. Currently, I have it running through some pretty cheap speakers, with the exception of my main front speakers. My mains are a pair of Boston Acoustics CR95's. The rest (sub,center,surr) are all dinky micros that need to be replaced.

After purchasing this receiver, I knew my next goal would be to upgrade my speakers. Floorstanding isn't working for me cause I'm in a 1 bdrm apt, so I'm selling them and getting a pair of B&W DM601 S3's. I auditioned them and they blew me away, plus they're bookshelf (read: smaller) and in my price range. However, that presents a dilemma. See, I don't have the cash to outfit my entire system with B&W. If I got the sub, the surrounds and a center (ASW600, DM600 S3, LCR600 S3), those would set me back nearly $1000. So, my longwinded question is, is that necessary? I mean, I know everyone talks about having things sonically matched, etc etc, but what happens if you don't have the money. I was looking at having the B&W's up front, then outfitting the rest of the system with some Athena's. They've gotten good reviews and they're significantly cheaper. But would this be unheard of? Would audio buffs everywhere shake their fists at the sky and ask "why....why?" Just curious. Again, it just all comes down to money. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[markw]

At least shoot for the front three speakers.

They're the mostcritical for a coherent soundstage. Matching the rears is nice, particularly if multi-channel music in in your future, but you can get by with different rears for HT purposes.

And, a sub is a sub of course of course.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I'd say so long as you have matching speakers for at least the front 3 you're in pretty good shape. The Athena's aren't a perfect match for the B&W's, but probably close enough for surround use. Hell, you might buy the fronts first and see if your existing Boston's are good enough for the rear- if so, free money!

Unless you're in love with it, I'd encourage you to try some other subs. It's JMO, but the B&W subs aren't very competitive in their price range- there's a lot of better subs for the money. Virtually any good sub will match any good speaker, so matching isn't a concern. Hsu, Adire & SVS all make subs that offer great sound for less than competing B&Ws. I've heard the ASW600, and I think it's a little loose sounding and flabby, and a little boomy with music. I've read a few reviews that say the same thing, so it's probably not just the install I heard. Unless you're getting it pretty cheap, I'd advise you try a Hsu VTF-2, VTF-3, or STF-2. The Adire Rava is another sub that runs rings around the B&W for $400 + shipping. Personally, I think even the Def Techs are a step up.

Those bookshelf B&W speakers are pretty nice, though.

 

[corysmith01]

Thanks for the input.

Yeah, I'll definitely look around for a different sub (not a B&W). Outside of this thread, I had also read in other areas that there's a lot of good deals (in terms of $ vs. sound quality) if you look around. I've read a lot of good things about Velodyne as well.

In terms of up front, you'd still suggest looking at the LCR60 since it's matched to my (soon to be) bookshelves? I guess I'll have to, but that speaker alone will set me back $350 (ouch). Aside from that though, for the surrounds, any decent speaker will do? It doesn't necessarily need to be matched? I can't use those Boston Acoustics...they're floorstanding, so probably a bit big for surround use.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Well, if you really want the DM600 S3's, then I'd suggest you go with the matching center. Or better yet, another DM600 S3. I know that's a bit impractical, as you need only one and they sell in pairs. And it won't look "right" sitting up like that, but nothing will be closer to your mains than another identical speaker. Plus, most horizontally laid out centers have some problems with lobing and comb filtering. A matching center should perform very well, though. (I think B&W is a little overpriced/overrated to begin with- that's no knock on them, but there are a lot of speakers I like as much that cost less. YMMV, of course, and if you like B&W you sure can't go wrong with them).

I personally like all 5 speakers to match, but my experience has led me to conclude that front to back match isn't as critical as matching the front 3. You will hear some guys here that don't really feel the center needs to match- to those guys, I say "lucky you", because the mismatch drives me nuts. In the grand scheme of things, the $350 for the "right" center won't be a big deal considering you'll get years of joy out of your rig. If you skimp you're always gonna wonder what you missed, but years from now you'll still be enjoying your speakers if you choose well from the start.

 

[Rob Babcock]

As an aside, I don't really talk a lot about it here but I'm a big fan of direct-marketed audio gear. There's nothing wrong with buying from B&W, Paradigm or Velodyne, but there's a world of other stuff out there that most guys that just shop B&M stores don't know about. Many direct sales places make fantastic products that can outperform their better known rivals by a wide margin for less money. I now it's a cliche, but they spend less on advertising (as a rule) and they cut out the middleman. There are downsides, to be sure- typically you have to order the product before hear it. The better companies offer superb return policies so you risk nothing, but it makes it tough to compare products head to head.

Hsu Research is a great example. Although they do have a limited dealer network now, the bulk of their sales are internet & phone sales. Their subs are among the best you can buy and have reaped scores of rave reviews, including many "Editor's Choice" awards. Adire Audio, SVS, VMPS (won back to back Best of CES awards*, no mean feat!), Perpetual Technologies, Van Alstine Audio, Onix Rockets, Axiom, GR Research, Selah Audio, Outlaw Audio- these are just a handful of the highly innovative companies cranking out stellar products that humble many of their more expensive competitors.

There's nothing wrong with going with reliable, time tested brands, but often you'll find the most remarkable things off the beaten path.




*Their RM-40 won outright one year, then their RM/X "Elixer" was part of the winning system the next year. The judges have advised them that they better not get their hopes up for a few years no matter how good their products, if you get the meaning.

 

[ruadmaa]

Actually, matching speakers is really not as important as people would have you believe. If you have five identical speakers they will all sound "different" because you are placing them in different locations in your room. A speaker placed on the floor against a wall will certainly sound different than the same speaker placed on top of your television for a center channel. I wouldn't worry about it much. Any reasonably close match will work just fine.

 

[zumbo]

Actually, matching speakers is really not as important as people would have you believe. If you have five identical speakers they will all sound "different" because you are placing them in different locations in your room. A speaker placed on the floor against a wall will certainly sound different than the same speaker placed on top of your television for a center channel. I wouldn't worry about it much. Any reasonably close match will work just fine.

The post above is incorrect. Listen to markw & Rob's advice.

 

[corysmith01]

All of these replies have been very helpful. I actually went poking around at rbh, axiom and paradigm...however, I think I'm still leaning towards the B&W, with one caveat. The reason I'm leaning is that the place I'm buying them offers a 1 year trade-in/trade-up offer. So, a within one year, I could return these and get the full price I paid for them towards another pair. So, in my mind, that souds like a really good way to step up to a pair of speakers that I couldn't really afford right now.

The caveat is, however, that now I'm just thinking about keeping my Boston Acoustics. Maybe that's the way to go, thereby putting my money into a matching BA center channel and some surrounds. Does anyone know anything about BA centers/surrounds. I was looking for a C that would match my CR95's. All I saw as the CRC7 and the CRC. (I'm assuming those are the right ones given their "CR" moniker). However, I noticed they only offer 4 in. drivers vs. the 5 1/4 and 6 1/2 I've seen on most others. That concerns me assuming that means I won't get as much low end response.

Ahh, decisions decisions.

Thanks again.

 

[Leprkon]

However, I noticed they only offer 4 in. drivers vs. the 5 1/4 and 6 1/2 I've seen on most others. That concerns me assuming that means I won't get as much low end response.

Ahh, decisions decisions.

Thanks again.

Cory, the main drivers on a center speaker for HT applications need to be good quality but don't really need to be extremely large. If you are getting down to about 75 Hz on the low end, a 4 inch would work out fine.

The center (again, specifically for HT applications- if you want SACD or DVD-audio, there's a whole nudder set of rules) carries mostly dialog and across-the-front movement. Movement of sound requires sound that has location, so the changin location gives the appearance of movement.

Very low bass is omnidirectional, and is nearly impossible for a "normal" human to locate the source. So to improve your movement across the front, 4 inch or 5 1/2 inch drivers make a good choice for the center.

The mains and your sub are meant to carry the low bass... let them do the work while your center does the dialog. You might "lose" an occasional very deep male voice from the center to the main drivers, but you will have much better front movement.

don't fret too much about getting the smaller driver in a center speaker.. as long as the timbre matches, that's what's most important.

 

[plhart]

From months ago, my reply to the problems with center channel speakers. check out 3. and 4. below. IMHO Boston has made more models of the most consistantly good center channel speakers than anyone in the industry...

The following configurations of center channels work "better". That is, they exhibit less or none of the undesirable cancellation/lobing effect that takes place with a D'Apollito in which the tweeter is exactly in the center of the cabinet and the mid-woofers are thus separated completely from each other.

The cancellation effect is usually more noticeable on mid-woofers of 5.25" and up (if both are driven all the way up to the crossover point). It is less noticeable on midwoofers of 4" and under. So, the tighter together you can get each of the mid-woofers, by squeezing the tweeter out of the center, for instance, as in example #2, the more closely the two drivers approach being a point source. Explained another way, the smaller-diameter-driver cancellations take place more closely to the speaker so the cancellations are more "resolved" by the time you get back to the listening position.

The original "benefit" of the D'Apollito configuration was that, set up vertically, the tweeter frequencies dispersed widely from left to right (in the horizontal plane) while the tweeter's frequencies were limited vertically; they were more focussed. This is why you see so many THX approved left and right speakers using the D'appolito configuration. Stood up vertically as Joe D'Appolito originally intended, the left and right mid-woofers tend to cancel each other at many frequencies as those frequencies head toward the ceiling or floor. So you don't get a strong floor or ceiling axial reflection at specific frequencies. Unfortunately, when you lay the D'Apollito on it's side as is done for the center channel, all the design's attributes become liabilities.

Here are four work-arounds that many designs currently on the market feature.

1. Three-way designs with a midrange under a tweeter and flanked by woofers work great as long as that midrange is brought down low enough into the vocal range. However, most of the faux 2" and 3" size "midranges" you see are crossed over above 1KHz so they don't necessarily answer the problem their vertical alignment (tweeter above midrange) would seem to imply.

2. Small mid-woofer drivers driven up to their 2.5KHz or so crossover can work well if they're pushed as closely together as possible, like many of the Atlantic Technology designs with the tweeter nestled in between the "V" formed by the two. AT also has the switchable proximity (TV) notch filter on many of their centers which makes for clear vocals without the false and unnatural "chestiness" added to voices.

3. A D'Apollito-appearing horizontal design which uses one well designed passive radiator and one true mid-woofer works very, very well. Boston Acoustics has used this trick for quite a while and I can tell you that in listening double blind, the Boston would always trump the more traditional double-driven mid-woofer designs. It was that much better.

4. Same can be said for 2 1/2 way designs in which one of the two driven woofers is rolled off fairly quickly , usually at around 500 Hz, while the second woofer goes up to the ~2.5KHz crossover point. Works very well.

 

[Fife]

I was in your same situation two weeks ago. I already had Boston CR series front speakers. I posted a question similar to yours (except I have a much smaller budget). I was unhappy with the woofer size of the Bostons and their sensitivity is only 89. I eventually went with the Boston CR7. I like it. It does voice match quite well. However, the issue remains. For the money you pay (225 at Onecall) I would have liked to get more for the money. The cabinet is smaller than I like and it does not go as deep as I would like. My personal plan is to move all three to the rear eventually. I felt that it would be more valuable to have a matching rear set eventually instead of a bunch of mismatched speakers. I did play with the idea of buying a center that would match a future set of fronts. This seemed too risky though. I couldn't accurately predict what I would buy in the future. Anyway, good luck.

 

[ruadmaa]

Zumbo, I resent your calling my posting incorrect. You are only stating your opinion and you are not an expert by any means.

 

[plhart]

The caveat is, however, that now I'm just thinking about keeping my Boston Acoustics. Maybe that's the way to go, thereby putting my money into a matching BA center channel and some surrounds. Does anyone know anything about BA centers/surrounds. I was looking for a C that would match my CR95's. All I saw as the CRC7 and the CRC. (I'm assuming those are the right ones given their "CR" moniker). However, I noticed they only offer 4 in. drivers vs. the 5 1/4 and 6 1/2 I've seen on most others. That concerns me.

Most well designed 4" systems like the Bostons will get down to 80Hz -6dB or so which is just fine for matching with subs. I favor acoustic suspension designs because their low frequency roll-off slope is only 12db which makes them blend well with subwoofers. What you have to be aware of is whether or not the speakers actually reach 80Hz at -6dB. Too small a cabinet and the speakers will roll-off consideably higher, like my Infinity Modulus sats which start rolling off at 150Hz. There's always a hole in the response(80Hz-150Hz).

Be aware also that if you're mounting a center channel speaker on big CRT or older RPTV you will get a bass boost, usually at least 3dB at the speaker's low frequency limit. This causes a chestiness in male vocals. Some center channels like the Atlantic Technology's have a cut switch on them to notch out the bump. Some centers are designed specifically to be placed on these types of TVs. Most just have the built-in acoustic boost and no one says anything about it.

The drawbacks of 4" speakers are that they are less efficient than 5.25" and 6.5" designs so they take more power to drive. Also, because the drivers are smaller they cannot play as loudly. But that's all relative off course.

The very lowest male vocal frequency is generally considered to be 82.4 Hz.

 

[corysmith01]

Thanks again everyone. So now I'm in the "lets figure out what to do" mode. I came home and gave my BA's a thorough sound test and found that I do like them a lot. I forgot how much low end they have. The bas is very deep and very rich. However, I do remember being blown away by the B&W's and I will have a sub hooked up, so maybe that much low end isn't necessary. Also, going back to my first post, I'm trying to downsize, so bookshelves would be a great help...but not absolutely necessary.

Now, I know this is just opinion/conjecture, but the price difference for my 2 options is $275, which isn't anything to sneeze at, but it's not a ton of dough either. If you were in my shoes would you:

a) Keep the CR95's and buy a CRC7 (in stock at my local sound place) for $225. (Out of pocket = $225)

-or-

b) Buy the DM601 S2's ($450/pr), sell the CR95's (~$300/pr : $450 - $300 = $150 out-of-pocket) and then buy the B&W LCR60 S3 ($350) for a grand total of $500 out of pocket.

So you see the difference bt. the 2 options would be $275 ($500-$225). Again, I know it's probably all personal preference, but given that these are both very real, very possible options, I just want opinions on what some others might do in my situation. Is B&W worth it...are they a "step-up" from Boston?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I'm not sure how much you'll really downsize by going to a bookshelf model; you'll still be placing them on stands, so how much room are you really saving? Visually, small speakers on stands are less visually prominent, but in reality the space is roughly the same.

It's dangerous for us to advise on what speakers you go with. I haven't heard many BA speakers over the last couple years, despite there being a dealer in town. Partly this stems from the fact that I've never been a big fan of them in the past (although I don't think they're bad- just not the "sound" I like). Given the choice between most B&W speakers I've heard vs most BA's I've heard, I'd pick the B&Ws. But I won't be the one listening to them.

If you're already vacillating between buying the DM600 S3's and keeping your current speakers, then you're probably not ready to buy anything yet. You may want to do a bit more research and listen to a few more pairs.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Actually, matching speakers is really not as important as people would have you believe. If you have five identical speakers they will all sound "different" because you are placing them in different locations in your room. A speaker placed on the floor against a wall will certainly sound different than the same speaker placed on top of your television for a center channel. I wouldn't worry about it much. Any reasonably close match will work just fine.

You make a good point, but I think you overstate it. Each speaker will be colored by interaction with room boundries and reflections, but by your logic you also wouldn't need to match the Left and Right in a stereo pair, either. I doubt many would agree with that proposition!

My experience is that the front three must match pretty closely to really project a coherent sound. True, differences in speaker location will affect the tonal qualities of each, but if your front three don't match each other to start with it further compounds the discontinuity. I've tried mixing speakers of a given brand with the center of the same brand but a different line and was surprised by how poor the match was. And I've noticed this in a variety of brands.

I suggest you stick with closely matched speakers at least for the front three.

 

[corysmith01]

Thanks again for your input Rob. Yeah, this back in forth thing is par for the course for me. I'm obsessive about any purchase, particularly ones where I'm dropping a little coin...I annoy myself at times. It's not that I'm not ready, I just want to make the right decision...really it just comes down to me wondering if they additional money spent will make a significant difference, or a minor one.

It's a good point about the space. I guess I need to explain. Yes, I do want it to be visually smaller, but also, weight and size is an issue. The reason being is, I'm in a profession where I move about once a year/year-and-a-half, so lugging these giant speakers has become less than desirable. My thought was, not only did I get speakers that sounded a bit better (I do believe the B&W's have a more full, balanced sound with a lot more midrange than the BA's), but also, I get a lighter, more portable speaker. Different strokes for different folks, right?

Thanks again. At any rate, talking it out with myself and hearing others responses at least makes me feel like I'm getting a "second opinion" if you will.

 

[zumbo]

Zumbo, I resent your calling my posting incorrect. You are only stating your opinion and you are not an expert by any means.

Sorry to offend. That was not my intention. But, you gave bad advice. Let me explain. Because you state that placement makes the speaker sound different (which is true), this would be MORE of a reason to timbre match. Then, they would be as close as possible.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Yeah, I get the moving bit. My brother used to have some huge monkey coffin Infinity's (SM 155s, SM 125s for surrounds, & SM center). Even the surrounds were 80 lbs/pair, and the biggies were like 140 lbs.

The B&W's are very very nice thru the midrange. That's an area where stepping up from entry level stuff really pays off. Well, all areas but especially in the vocal range. I'm a big fan of Monitor Audio, which is I guess sort of a "rival" of B&W as they're both British. Across the board I prefer MA to B&W, but I don't really want to go on about it; for every guy who thinks one is better you'll find someone who prefers the other.

So long as you don't go too small with the bookshelf type speaker, a good small speaker and a sub doesn't have to give up much to a tower.