Do I need an amplifier?

[mossman77]

I have my sights set on a pair of new Dynaudio Emit 50 floor standing speakers, but am uncertain as to whether my receiver can adequately (and safely) power them. I currently have a Marantz SR5012 AV receiver, which is spec'd at 140Wx2 at 6 ohms. It says nothing in the literature about being 4 ohm stable, which is concerning. I'm guessing I will need an external amplifier? Or would it make more sense to replace the SR5012 with something else? I currently have a 5.1 setup (Deftech Mythos Nine on-wall speakers and one HSU sub) and mostly listen to music. I have limited wall space, so something like the Emit 50 is about as large as I can go. Open to suggestions. Budget is about $2k for a new receiver or additional amp.

 

[Swerd]

Your Marantz is rated at 100 Wpc at 8 ohms driving 2 channels. I'd ignore that 140W at 6 ohms rating because it's method of rating is not similar to the method used for the 100 W rating:
100 W + 100 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
140 W + 140 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)

As you said, Marantz says nothing about 4 ohms. Fortunately, your AVR does have preamp output jacks allowing you to add an external amp.

Dynaudio rates the Emit 50 speakers as 4 ohm with an IEC power handling upper limit of 240 Watts. IEC ratings are for short-lived power peaks. In contrast, the 100W rating of your receiver is for sustained power, unlike the IEC rating.

So, it isn't clear if your receiver is or isn't up to driving the Emit 50 speakers. It probably will not overpower them, but it might not be stable with a 4 ohm load if at high volume.

A foreign language (Czech?) review of these speakers does show both a frequency vs. impedance (red trace) as well as a phase angle vs. impedance (black trace) curve.

Overall, the impedance doesn't look bad, it doesn't go lower than 4 ohms. See the red trace in the 80-300 Hz frequency range. But the phase angle does shift rapidly over that same range. The phase angle units, on the right side of the graph, make it hard to guess the range of angles over that frequency range. But I'd guess that it isn't small. Low impedance combined with a large shift in impedance phase angles, over the same frequency range, is a sure sign of speakers that are difficult to drive. So, it's possible that these speakers might be a difficult load for your moderately powered Marantz AVR to drive. But I can't say that for certain.

If you get those speakers, I'd try running them in stereo with your Marantz. But run them at high volume with some caution. See what you think about their sound.

Are you buying these speakers from a dealer, or online? What power amp does the dealer use to demonstrate them in the store? As always, be very cautious about believing what a dealer might say about this question. He will be only too glad to sell you a power amp with those Dynaudio speakers.

If you decide you want more power to drive these speaker, and if you're in the USA, I'd suggest looking into Buckeye amps. See these two 2-channel amps below. They're both very high quality class D amps. I've heard the more powerful NC502 amp in action, and I think it leaves nothing more to desire. The less expensive NC252 might be perfect for your needs.

Hypex NC252MP Amplifier, 2-channel, $575 for 250 W/channel
or
Hypex NC502MP Amplifier, 2-channel, $750 for 500 W/channel

 

[PENG]

Instead of repeating the typical suggestion of the use of online spl/power requirement calculators, I am going start using the easier way to answer this popular question.

For 4 ohm nominal speakers, if the avr is rated 100 W 8 ohms, you can pretend it is a 50 W amp for 4 ohms.

That also mean if the maximum vol is +18, as is yhe case with Marantz, set tp volume limit to around -10.

 

[PENG]

I should add that the -10 limit is based on Audyssey off, such as in direct mode. If Audyssey is on, adjust the limit according to the level trim settings, such as to -13, or lower.

 

[TLS Guy]

Instead of repeating the typical suggestion of the use of online spl/power requirement calculators, I am going start using the easier way to answer this popular question.

For 4 ohm nominal speakers, if the avr is rated 100 W 8 ohms, you can pretend it is a 50 W amp for 4 ohms.

That also mean if the maximum vol is +18, as is yhe case with Marantz, set tp volume limit to around -10.

Yes, but will the OP? We all get carried away at times. Good engineering requires reserve in hand and not walking the line and risking crossing it.

I have another thread where I point out how far things are out of whack, and a good deal of it goes right to the door of the receiver concept. We don't and should not need them any more. It is long past time for them to go to the ashbin of history.

My advice to the OP is to seriously consider a good pair of active speakers, that he can connect directly to his preouts.

Then he will only use amps he needs. This whole idea of having amps lying around that are essentially not fit for purpose is absurd.

Wake up people! You have been conned by those confounded marketers and MBA types.

So my advice to the OP is to look seriously at active speakers instead of having to add a power amp. With an active speaker he will buy the amps he needs, designed and selected appropriate for the job at hand.

 

[mossman77]

Your Marantz is rated at 100 Wpc at 8 ohms driving 2 channels. I'd ignore that 140W at 6 ohms rating because it's method of rating is not similar to the method used for the 100 W rating:
100 W + 100 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
140 W + 140 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)

As you said, Marantz says nothing about 4 ohms. Fortunately, your AVR does have preamp output jacks allowing you to add an external amp.

Dynaudio rates the Emit 50 speakers as 4 ohm with an IEC power handling upper limit of 240 Watts. IEC ratings are for short-lived power peaks. In contrast, the 100W rating of your receiver is for sustained power, unlike the IEC rating.

So, it isn't clear if your receiver is or isn't up to driving the Emit 50 speakers. It probably will not overpower them, but it might not be stable with a 4 ohm load if at high volume.

A foreign language (Czech?) review of these speakers does show both a frequency vs. impedance (red trace) as well as a phase angle vs. impedance (black trace) curve.
View attachment 62908
Overall, the impedance doesn't look bad, it doesn't go lower than 4 ohms. See the red trace in the 80-300 Hz frequency range. But the phase angle does shift rapidly over that same range. The phase angle units, on the right side of the graph, make it hard to guess the range of angles over that frequency range. But I'd guess that it isn't small. Low impedance combined with a large shift in impedance phase angles, over the same frequency range, is a sure sign of speakers that are difficult to drive. So, it's possible that these speakers might be a difficult load for your moderately powered Marantz AVR to drive. But I can't say that for certain.

If you get those speakers, I'd try running them in stereo with your Marantz. But run them at high volume with some caution. See what you think about their sound.

Are you buying these speakers from a dealer, or online? What power amp does the dealer use to demonstrate them in the store? As always, be very cautious about believing what a dealer might say about this question. He will be only too glad to sell you a power amp with those Dynaudio speakers.

If you decide you want more power to drive these speaker, and if you're in the USA, I'd suggest looking into Buckeye amps. See these two 2-channel amps below. They're both very high quality class D amps. I've heard the more powerful NC502 amp in action, and I think it leaves nothing more to desire. The less expensive NC252 might be perfect for your needs.

Hypex NC252MP Amplifier, 2-channel, $575 for 250 W/channel
or
Hypex NC502MP Amplifier, 2-channel, $750 for 500 W/channel

I would like to buy them from a local dealer (Richmond, VA), but it's a bit of a drive. Not seeing a whole lot of online dealers. World Wide Audio is one of the few. I'm not dead set on the Dyanaudios, but they seem like a decent sub-$1,000 speaker based on the reviews I have read.

Thanks for the recommendations. I think I'd like something that blends in more with my existing receiver, such as the NAD C298 or Anthem MCA 225. Thoughts on either of these amps?

Hypex Nilai 500 also seems like an attractive option...

Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amplifier

In Stock Same Business Day Shipping The Hypex Nilai 500 stereo amplifier provides ultra high-end class D amplification. The amplifier competes with high-end products, providing serious sound for a fraction of the price. Sound is rendered with realism, finesse and ultra low noise. This precision...

deercreekaudio.com

And this one from PA Audio:

S300 Amplifier

From the deepest bass to the warmest, sweetest highs, the Stellar S300 makes any loudspeaker sing and is our most affordable stereo power amplifier ever.

www.psaudio.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, but will the OP? We all get carried away at times. Good engineering requires reserve in hand and not walking the line and risking crossing it.

I have another thread where I point out how far things are out of whack, and a good deal of it goes right to the door of the receiver concept. We don't and should not need them any more. It is long past time for them to go to the ashbin of history.

My advice to the OP is to seriously consider a good pair of active speakers, that he can connect directly to his preouts.

Then he will only use amps he needs. This whole idea of having amps lying around that are essentially not fit for purpose is absurd.

Wake up people! You have been conned by those confounded marketers and MBA types.

So my advice to the OP is to look seriously at active speakers instead of having to add a power amp. With an active speaker he will buy the amps he needs, designed and selected appropriate for the job at hand.

You’re too predictable.

All anyone ever has to say is “passive speakers” or “AVR” and you would either say “Active speakers all the way” or “AVR’s are trash, get an AVP + Amp all the way”.

 

[NMG]

Found this on an Audioholics write up on your receiver:

“All seven channels of the SR5012 are identical in design and built from high-quality components including Marantz' Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Modules (HDAMs). The SR5012 handles digital to analog conversion through its eight-channel DAC block, using 32-bit AKM's AK4458VN D/A converters on all channels. It features low-impedance drive capabilities that should provide for excellent speaker control even with 4-ohm speakers. For energy conservationist, SR5012 comes with an Eco mode but we don't recommend using the Eco mode if your concern is maximum power delivery to your speakers. It features an on-screen Eco meter that allows you to use the receiver in power-saving mode, either reducing the maximum output power or adopting low-power strategies at more modest settings.”

Personally, I wouldn’t run out and buy a new amp unless you try running them with your receiver and decide it’s not cutting it for your needs.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd also just try the speakers with the avr alone and see for your use if it is adequate, you can always add an amp later. If I did determine a more powerful amp is in order, I'd add an external amp as long as the avr meets your needs rather than buying a new avr, the amp is a much more economical way to go (and better choices in external amps for power/low impedance capabilities rather than a different avr).

If you do want to play around with an spl calculator to account for your spl levels and distance from speakers this might be useful to help estimate needs http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html

ps The idea of active speakers isn't perhaps a bad one if you've not actually purchased new speakers yet. There are some good candidates out there.

 

[PENG]

I would like to buy them from a local dealer (Richmond, VA), but it's a bit of a drive. Not seeing a whole lot of online dealers. World Wide Audio is one of the few. I'm not dead set on the Dyanaudios, but they seem like a decent sub-$1,000 speaker based on the reviews I have read.

Thanks for the recommendations. I think I'd like something that blends in more with my existing receiver, such as the NAD C298 or Anthem MCA 225. Thoughts on either of these amps?

Hypex Nilai 500 also seems like an attractive option...

Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amplifier

In Stock Same Business Day Shipping The Hypex Nilai 500 stereo amplifier provides ultra high-end class D amplification. The amplifier competes with high-end products, providing serious sound for a fraction of the price. Sound is rendered with realism, finesse and ultra low noise. This precision...

deercreekaudio.com

And this one from PA Audio:

S300 Amplifier

From the deepest bass to the warmest, sweetest highs, the Stellar S300 makes any loudspeaker sing and is our most affordable stereo power amplifier ever.

www.psaudio.com

The NAD and the edit: YHpex Nilia 500 have better specs, either one should be powerful enough to destroy the Emit 50. As others said, try the AVR first, it may be fine if you don't listen now and don't crank the volume too high per my earlier post.

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for the recommendations. I think I'd like something that blends in more with my existing receiver, such as the NAD C298 or Anthem MCA 225. Thoughts on either of these amps?

Hypex Nilai 500 also seems like an attractive option...

Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amplifier

In Stock Same Business Day Shipping The Hypex Nilai 500 stereo amplifier provides ultra high-end class D amplification. The amplifier competes with high-end products, providing serious sound for a fraction of the price. Sound is rendered with realism, finesse and ultra low noise. This precision...

deercreekaudio.com

And this one from PA Audio:

S300 Amplifier

From the deepest bass to the warmest, sweetest highs, the Stellar S300 makes any loudspeaker sing and is our most affordable stereo power amplifier ever.

www.psaudio.com

The NAD C298 and Anthem MCA 225 amps are old class A/AB designs – been around for decades. They're alright, but overpriced.

The newish Hypex NCore Class D designs (been around for about 15-20 years) represent among the best of the new amplifier designs. They produce abundant power, at very low noise & distortion, and they can be built into small cabinets because they run cooler than old class A/AB amps. I think they offer the best performance available at the lowest prices. Look at the various options Buckeye offers, with 2, 4, 6 or 8 channels in various sized cabinets. Buckeye sells online direct from manufacturer to customer.

A number of other different manufacturers sell products that also contain Hypex NCxxx modules in them. They probably have quite similar performance. Those Deer Creek Audio Hypex Nilai 500 and the PS Audio models you mentioned both contain Hypex Class D amplifier modules, in different looking chassis, and at higher prices. Make your own choices about price and appearance.

@NMG (above) pointed out that your Marantz AVR might be just fine with those Dynaudio speakers. I agree with him. Give those speakers at least a month's try-out with your Marantz before you decide to spend extra for external amps.

It [Marantz SR5012] features low-impedance drive capabilities that should provide for excellent speaker control even with 4-ohm speakers.

 

[PENG]

The NAD C298 and Anthem MCA 225 amps are old class A/AB designs – been around for decades. They're alright, but overpriced.

The newish Hypex NCore Class D designs (been around for about 15-20 years) represent among the best of the new amplifier designs. They produce abundant power, at very low noise & distortion, and they can be built into small cabinets because they run cooler than old class A/AB amps. I think they offer the best performance available at the lowest prices. Look at the various options Buckeye offers, with 2, 4, 6 or 8 channels in various sized cabinets.

A number of other different manufacturers sell products that also contain Hypex NCxxx modules in them. They probably have quite similar performance. Those Deer Creek Audio Hypex Nilai 500 and the PS Audio models you mentioned both contain Hypex Class D amplifier modules, in different looking chassis, and at higher prices. Make your own choices about price and appearance.

@NMG (above) pointed out that your Marantz AVR might be just fine with those Dynaudio speakers. I agree with him. Give those speakers at least a month's try-out with your Marantz before you decide to spend extra for external amps.

You might have mixed up the C298 with 275, the C298 are class D, based on Purifi's.

 

[Swerd]

You might have mixed up the C298 with 275, the C298 are class D, based on Purifi's.

You're correct, I did mix them up. But they are still overpriced, in my opinion.

 

[mossman77]

Awesome. Really appreciate all the feedback!

My next concern is what to do about my existing L/R/C wall speakers (Mythos Nine). They are currently mounted over top my fireplace on the left/right/bottom of my television, respectively. I'm wondering if I could leave a these in place for television/movie watching and only use the new floor speakers for music listening. I'm assuming I'd have to wire the floor speakers to the second zone to achieve this. Would such a setupbe ridiculous simply to retain my wall speakers? I basically don't want to tear out wires and patch holes, and the speakers do sound very nice, to me at least. My main goal of getting floor speakers is to get sound at ear level and improved mid-bass.

 

[everettT]

Awesome. Really appreciate all the feedback!

My next concern is what to do about my existing L/R/C wall speakers (Mythos Nine). They are currently mounted over top my fireplace on the left/right/bottom of my television, respectively. I'm wondering if I could leave a these in place for television/movie watching and only use the new floor speakers for music listening. I'm assuming I'd have to wire the floor speakers to the second zone to achieve this. Would such a setupbe ridiculous simply to retain my wall speakers? I basically don't want to tear out wires and patch holes, and the speakers do sound very nice, to me at least. My main goal of getting floor speakers is to get sound at ear level and improved mid-bass.

You might find that you may want to use the floor speakers for TV and movies too, possibly replacing the center with one that matches the new ones. But if you wanted to use zone two for music only, nothing wrong with that.

Also, if you went with powered speakers and use the same as before, you could get something like these for just a hair more.

A700

Buchardt Audio Active Wireless Floor Standing Speakers

buchardtaudio.com

Buchardt A700 Active Tower Speaker Review

Buchardt A700 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[mossman77]

You might find that you may want to use the floor speakers for TV and movies too, possibly replacing the center with one that matches the new ones. But if you wanted to use zone two for music only, nothing wrong with that.

Also, if you went with powered speakers and use the same as before, you could get something like these for just a hair more.

A700

Buchardt Audio Active Wireless Floor Standing Speakers

buchardtaudio.com

Buchardt A700 Active Tower Speaker Review

Buchardt A700 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

The A700s do look enticing. The sealed enclosure is also a plus since I won't be able to pull the speakers away from the wall. I do already have electrical outlets directly behind where they'd go, but....they are $6500 a pair. I could maybe swing for the A500.

 

[everettT]

The A700s do look enticing. The sealed enclosure is also a plus since I won't be able to pull the speakers away from the wall. I do already have electrical outlets directly behind where they'd go, but....they are $6500 a pair. I could maybe swing for the A500.

Still a very good option and the cardiod tuning helps with placement and boomy rooms. Make sure to include the platinum hub if you decide to go this route.

 

[mossman77]

Can someone comment on the Mythos Nine speakers I have? Would the Dynaudio or Burchardt speakers be a significant step up?

 

[lovinthehd]

Awesome. Really appreciate all the feedback!

My next concern is what to do about my existing L/R/C wall speakers (Mythos Nine). They are currently mounted over top my fireplace on the left/right/bottom of my television, respectively. I'm wondering if I could leave a these in place for television/movie watching and only use the new floor speakers for music listening. I'm assuming I'd have to wire the floor speakers to the second zone to achieve this. Would such a setupbe ridiculous simply to retain my wall speakers? I basically don't want to tear out wires and patch holes, and the speakers do sound very nice, to me at least. My main goal of getting floor speakers is to get sound at ear level and improved mid-bass.

Your avr has an A/B option for front speakers, see page 49 and 187 of your avr's (pdf) manual.

 

[mossman77]

Alternatively, I could switch my existing L/R speakers to front height speakers, then replace the center channel with a new one to match the new floor speakers...