DIY Sub Enclosure/amp ideas

[Jeff R.]

After reading some of the DIY threads I have decided to attempt to build my own sub. It will be used for 50% HT and 50% music. My current system is an Onkyo TX-SR805 reciever with all MB Quart speakers, QLS 1030 (fronts) QLS 330 (center) and Balcony Dipole A-80 (rears). I have been running an old infinity BU-2 12" sub that is way underpowered. I was reading a few threads and kept reading about the great performance from the Eclipse subs in the SW line as a home sub application. I just happen to have a pair of 10" Eclipse SW8102 DVC's sitting in my basement not even being used. Left from an old car audio system. I am looking for some ideas on what it would take to convert these to home use. I really have the need for two subs at my house so I could make two separate subs and utilize one for my home theatre and one for a pure audio system in my family room. Or I can put both subs in the same box and hopefully have a super sub. I should also mention I do have the box from my car application which has separate enclosures for each speaker and each is sealed with a volume of 0.75 cubic feet as an option also.

Anybody have any great ideas to create a kick *** home build sub for a reasonable price.

Thanks

Jeff

 

[annunaki]

After reading some of the DIY threads I have decided to attempt to build my own sub. It will be used for 50% HT and 50% music. My current system is an Onkyo TX-SR805 reciever with all MB Quart speakers, QLS 1030 (fronts) QLS 330 (center) and Balcony Dipole A-80 (rears). I have been running an old infinity BU-2 12" sub that is way underpowered. I was reading a few threads and kept reading about the great performance from the Eclipse subs in the SW line as a home sub application. I just happen to have a pair of 10" Eclipse SW8102 DVC's sitting in my basement not even being used. Left from an old car audio system. I am looking for some ideas on what it would take to convert these to home use. I really have the need for two subs at my house so I could make two separate subs and utilize one for my home theatre and one for a pure audio system in my family room. Or I can put both subs in the same box and hopefully have a super sub. I should also mention I do have the box from my car application which has separate enclosures for each speaker and each is sealed with a volume of 0.75 cubic feet as an option also.

Anybody have any great ideas to create a kick *** home build sub for a reasonable price.

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff,

To determine the appropriate enclosures for hom use you will need to provide the Theile/Small parameters. We can then use those to determine the best enclosure alignment and/or whether or not they would work well for the intended application.

 

[DonBattles]

....

Been doing a great deal of reading ( this forum ) and research and I'm this sounds like a pretty good idea. I have had some experience with Eclipse subs back in my car audio days and I do know these will rock


taken from a post by WmAx

"I offer very specific advice, and a multitude of options based on the capability of the person. I can suggest very high quality solutions that involve only buying pre-made/pre-finished sealed cabinets and the user only has to cut a hole for the driver and/or amplifier and connect the wires. No skill at all is required for this. I do not point people to other websites for advice, and I personally make sure that the user knows all of the variables involved if they actually want to do the project. But so far, no one in this thread has actually asked about anything even remotely specific. But since you asked..... here is a no skill required 'DIY' project that will give you higher SPL and lower distortion, than any of the product recommended from commercial vendors so far except maybe the 15" slot ported AV123 option, but I would wager the distortion will be much higher on the AV123 as compared to the following solution:

For $650-$700, one can build a superb sealed 12" subwoofer that will radically outperform most commercial products costing several times as much. For the non-skilled person, I recommend at this price, the Eclipse SW8200 12" driver(it has more linear displacement than most 15" drivers), which is an extraordinary quality device designed by TC Sounds. It has 3x the linear excursion(as verified in 3rd party Klippel analysis) of a normal very high quality 12" driver. Use the 3 cubic foot Dayton Audio sealed pre-fab cabinet, it comes finished in textured black paint. Use the O Audio 500 watt BASH amplifier. It has just enough power and the needed parametric EQ band to get the desired smooth response in this cabinet with this woofer. The amplifier is very high quality, and even made in North America(Canada), and has been measured/verified by 3rd party to be a quality amplification device. Actual output power into 4 Ohm load, continuous, is 430 watts.

If the person won't even cut a hole, then they can take the cabinet, driver and amp down to any car audio shop and they will cut the holes and install the parts for less then 50 dollars."

Driver: $190+shipping
Cabinet: $190+shipping
Amp: $230+shipping

-Chris
__________________
Dedicated to improving the real[quantifiable] parameters of sound reproduction.
Last edited by WmAx : 01-06-2009 at 12:15 PM.
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[WmAx]

After reading some of the DIY threads I have decided to attempt to build my own sub. It will be used for 50% HT and 50% music. My current system is an Onkyo TX-SR805 reciever with all MB Quart speakers, QLS 1030 (fronts) QLS 330 (center) and Balcony Dipole A-80 (rears). I have been running an old infinity BU-2 12" sub that is way underpowered. I was reading a few threads and kept reading about the great performance from the Eclipse subs in the SW line as a home sub application. I just happen to have a pair of 10" Eclipse SW8102 DVC's sitting in my basement not even being used. Left from an old car audio system. I am looking for some ideas on what it would take to convert these to home use. I really have the need for two subs at my house so I could make two separate subs and utilize one for my home theatre and one for a pure audio system in my family room. Or I can put both subs in the same box and hopefully have a super sub. I should also mention I do have the box from my car application which has separate enclosures for each speaker and each is sealed with a volume of 0.75 cubic feet as an option also.

Anybody have any great ideas to create a kick *** home build sub for a reasonable price.

Thanks

Jeff

These appear to be TC Sounds drivers, re badged for Eclipose. Published x-max claims over 30mm one way.

If you can provide the TS parameters including all of the following, I'll model it:

Qes:
Qms:
VAS:
Fs:
X-max:
BL:
Le:
Pe(RMS power):
Re(Series? Parralel?):

-Chris

 

[Jeff R.]

Chris

Hear is what I have so far:
Fs: 26 Hz
VAS: 2.01 cu Ft
X-Max: 1.2" (1-way)
QTS: 0.47
Pe (RMS Power): 500 W (1000 Max)

I am not sure about the series or parrallel? I really don't have a preference, just want to power them sufficently and not have to break the bank on a very expensive amp.

Not sure what the following is? I don't even know what these appreviations stand for...

Qes- ?
Qms- ?
BL - ?
Le - ?

If you can give me more information on these it may help me find the data. Here is a link to the page I used to find the info.

www.cartoys.com/cartoy/pdfs/Eclipse_spkr_manual.pdf

Like I said it is the SW8102 DVC.

Thanks

Jeff

 

[WmAx]

Chris

Hear is what I have so far:
Fs: 26 Hz
VAS: 2.01 cu Ft
X-Max: 1.2" (1-way)
QTS: 0.47
Pe (RMS Power): 500 W (1000 Max)

I am not sure about the series or parrallel? I really don't have a preference, just want to power them sufficently and not have to break the bank on a very expensive amp.

Not sure what the following is? I don't even know what these appreviations stand for...

Qes- ?
Qms- ?
BL - ?
Le - ?

If you can give me more information on these it may help me find the data. Here is a link to the page I used to find the info.

www.cartoys.com/cartoy/pdfs/Eclipse_spkr_manual.pdf

Like I said it is the SW8102 DVC.

Thanks

Jeff

I already have to make some assumptions about the driver when I model it. I need at minimum the parameters I listed and if you can not find them I can not comfortably model the driver. I measure my own drivers, but I do understand that most people are not set up for this. The device to do so costs about $100 USD new, FYI, though I doubt you want to buy it just to measure the subwoofers.

-Chris

 

[Jeff R.]

Chris

I am still working on getting this data. I am not getting much help from Eclipse at all. I will keep looking. Any suggestions on where other than Eclipse I can find the specs? Do you think a local electronics repair place would be able to run these tests for me?

Jeff

 

[WmAx]

Chris

I am still working on getting this data. I am not getting much help from Eclipse at all. I will keep looking. Any suggestions on where other than Eclipse I can find the specs? Do you think a local electronics repair place would be able to run these tests for me?

Jeff

Not likely that a local electronics place would be set up to measure transducers.

You can buy the proper tool to do it yourself: this is a $100 investment.(www.partsexpress.com - look for the Woofer Tester 3 ) But do you want to make sure you have the best possible design? Or do you want to waste all your effort on an unknown? You could try to find a local DIYer to test them for you? Or send them to someone to test for you? I can do it, but I would have to charge a fee, and after you paid the fee plus the shipping back and forth, you could just buy a WT3 for yourself for $20-$40 more.......

If you want, you can take the very basic T&S specs you have and do some very rough modeling. But I like to at least use WinISD Pro(a popular freeware), and to use it fully, you need, at minimum, the specifications that I listed earlier.

-Chris

 

[Jeff R.]

Chris

I finally got in touch with Eclipse Tech support tonight. I was able to pick up the Qes and Mes specs

Qes: 0.322
Qms: 5.0

They do not have the BL and Le specified any where in their literature. I spoke to the store I bought the speakers from and they said that they have only put these in sealed boxes, never really used them in a ported setup. Eclipse also recommened a sealed enclosure that was anywhere from about 0.85 - 1.15 Cubic Feet. From the online calcs I ran I did not see much a performance curve change across these box sizes. Using http://www.ajdesigner.com/fl_subwoofer/subwoofer.php. I pretty much found the -3db to fall in upper 38 hz range - 40 Hz. I guess that means I will only be able to play down to about that frequency range??

I also found another site and ran the calcs for a ported box. The site was www.mh-audio.nl and used the ported box calculation and it found that the following:
Vb: 3.41 Fb: 22.19 F3:20.51 Ripple 0.02
Port dia: 3" Port length: 9.06"

This box seems to run much lower in frequency which I would like to be as close to 20 hz as possible.

Why is the -3dB mark so important in the Frequency response graph? Does that basically mean that bass production below that is not going to be audible anymore?

Any more help would be greatly appreciated?

Thanks

Jeff

 

[calnbs]

I have a question about DIY subwoofer cabinet, is there a difference between a car custom subwoofer cabinet and a home audio cabinet? What would the draw backs be if I used a cabinet design for car audio? Reason is, easier for me to find a car audio to build custom cabinet than a home theater custom build place.

 

[annunaki]

The enclosures for car audio are typically designed a bit smaller and rely on the vehicle's transfer function to boost low frequencies (below 35hz or so).

The T/S parameters will determine the best enclosure for a given woofer whether in a vehicle or not.

In such cases, if the enclosure for the vehicle was designed properly it MAY be able to be used in the home.

 

[Jeff R.]

OK- I spoke with another tech from Eclipse today and here are the final specs. These are the only specs that Eclipse can furnish and according to them all that is needed to build a box with. Chris - I do not think I am going to try and go any further buying the woofer tester. I think for my current application we can get very very close to a very good sub. After all these speakers seem to be of very good quality, will that not help the cause greatly?

Qes: 0.513
Qms: 5.6
VAS: 2.10 cu ft
Fs: 26 Hz
X-max: 1.2” (1-way) 2.4 “total
BL:
Le:
Pe(RMS power): 500 W
Re(Series? Parallel?):
QTS: 0.47


Can anybody help me understand what I will be unable to account for by not having the BL and Le information? If it is a very slight difference in performance that most listeners will not be able to detect then I may need to try and come up with a solid box design with out these parameters.

I have run some more calcs. Mostly the EBP is 50.68. From what I have read. EBP of less that 50 means a sealed box is ideal, EBP over 90 means a ported design is ideal. Anything between 50-90 can go either way. So does that mean I need to be leaning toward a sealed box being so close to 50? Right now using the calcs I have run, by running a sealed box I can only get my F3 down to about 39Hz. If I run calcs for a ported box my F3 is down about 21Hz. So right now I am leaning to go with a ported box, based on the F3 numbers. However, will I just be able to go low and lose my quality of sound since my EBP indicates to stay with a sealed box.

Anybody have some suggestions?

 

[WmAx]

OK- I spoke with another tech from Eclipse today and here are the final specs. These are the only specs that Eclipse can furnish and according to them all that is needed to build a box with. Chris - I do not think I am going to try and go any further buying the woofer tester. I think for my current application we can get very very close to a very good sub. After all these speakers seem to be of very good quality, will that not help the cause greatly?

Qes: 0.513
Qms: 5.6
VAS: 2.10 cu ft
Fs: 26 Hz
X-max: 1.2” (1-way) 2.4 “total
BL:
Le:
Pe(RMS power): 500 W
Re(Series? Parallel?):
QTS: 0.47


Can anybody help me understand what I will be unable to account for by not having the BL and Le information? If it is a very slight difference in performance that most listeners will not be able to detect then I may need to try and come up with a solid box design with out these parameters.

I have run some more calcs. Mostly the EBP is 50.68. From what I have read. EBP of less that 50 means a sealed box is ideal, EBP over 90 means a ported design is ideal. Anything between 50-90 can go either way. So does that mean I need to be leaning toward a sealed box being so close to 50? Right now using the calcs I have run, by running a sealed box I can only get my F3 down to about 39Hz. If I run calcs for a ported box my F3 is down about 21Hz. So right now I am leaning to go with a ported box, based on the F3 numbers. However, will I just be able to go low and lose my quality of sound since my EBP indicates to stay with a sealed box.

Anybody have some suggestions?

The issue is - that without Le and Bl; it's harder to figure out actual output SPL and excursion ranges vs. input power. Ideally, I really want a Klippel Analysis - so I can look at things with different major variables - but I'll settle for a decent static measurement over nothing - so I have a place to start from and then make some assumptions.

Now, based on the limited information I have, it looks like these will do superbly for HT. I would make a cab for both. Each cab should be 4.5 cubic feet net internal volume. The vent will be folded slot port type. 10" wide, x 3.25" high x 62" path length.

This will give you substantial output to 15-16Hz free field. In room, a few Hz lower. Use a clean minimum 500 watts RMS per channel amplifier. Using one of those O Audio 500 Watt BASH amps per sub would be perfect. It also has a variable subsonic filter which will benefit you here.

-Chris

 

[Jeff R.]

Chris - Thank you very much for the help. A few quick questions. Then you say 4.5 net volume that is the total internal volume including the volume that will be taken by the port?

Also, does the layout of the box have a major difference in sound output. I would prefer to have the port and the driver face forward.

Can the port be made with a lighter weight material than 3/4" MDF? If so do you have any suggestions.

With my DVC on the sub, I have an option either run 2 ohm or 8 ohm. Will a plate amp that runs in the 250-300 range actually handle a 2 ohm load or should I wire it for 8 ohms.

Thanks

Jeff

 

[WmAx]

Chris - Thank you very much for the help. A few quick questions. Then you say 4.5 net volume that is the total internal volume including the volume that will be taken by the port?

Also, does the layout of the box have a major difference in sound output. I would prefer to have the port and the driver face forward.

Can the port be made with a lighter weight material than 3/4" MDF? If so do you have any suggestions.

With my DVC on the sub, I have an option either run 2 ohm or 8 ohm. Will a plate amp that runs in the 250-300 range actually handle a 2 ohm load or should I wire it for 8 ohms.

Thanks

Jeff

With that load range, no plate amp is really well suited. You will need to use a pro amp in that case. The Behringer Ep2500 is ideal.

You can build the cabinets out of 13 ply baltic birch ply. It's a little lighter than MDF - but far superior for cabinets. You can even use regular cabineet grade hardwood 7 ply. It's much lighter than MDF - and at least as good as MDF.

The net volume does not include the port.

-Chris

 

[Jeff R.]

I checked out the amp, it looks like a monster amp. I take it I will have to use my reciever for set my cross over and gains on this amp or does it have that capability?

Also - What do I need to use to build my port inside the box?

The baltic birch I assume will make for an idea surface to stain this box and poly so the finish looks professional.

Thanks again,

Jeff

I am hoping to start construction sometime in the next week. I will keep you posted, not to mention probably have a few more questions.

 

[WmAx]

I checked out the amp, it looks like a monster amp. I take it I will have to use my reciever for set my cross over and gains on this amp or does it have that capability?

Also - What do I need to use to build my port inside the box?

The baltic birch I assume will make for an idea surface to stain this box and poly so the finish looks professional.

Thanks again,

Jeff

I am hoping to start construction sometime in the next week. I will keep you posted, not to mention probably have a few more questions.

You can stain the birch, yes. But for it to look right, you either have to cut teh panels perfectly and have them all join with 45 degrees so there are no edges exposed(only feasible if you have it cut CNC, or you are a very precision woodworker), or if you route insets into the edges and glue in and flush solid hardwood trim as a final step.

You will use the birch for internal bracing and slot ports too.

The amp, if it is in the room(and not an AV closet), will have a loud fan. There is a replacement fan to make it silent from a few feet away for home use.

You will have to use your receiver to set crossover, etc,. unless you buy an external processsor for that duty. Note: the amp uses pro audio inputs - and some recievers may not output enough voltage to make the amp operate at sufficient levels. You can buy a conversion box to up the output to standard pro levels if you need to.

-Chris

 

[Jeff R.]

Chris - I am a little skeptical about this amp, it will not be in a closet, I am concerned that the noise level may be to much, not to mention the conversion box you mention and fan kit to help reduce the noise.

I found this amp and seems like I can wire my sub to run at 8 ohms and will still get 500W RMS and be a little simpler for the application. I hve seen several people speak highly of the dayton equipment. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-810. It seems to be a good price right now on sale.

Thanks

Jeff

 

[annunaki]

Chris - I am a little skeptical about this amp, it will not be in a closet, I am concerned that the noise level may be to much, not to mention the conversion box you mention and fan kit to help reduce the noise.

I found this amp and seems like I can wire my sub to run at 8 ohms and will still get 500W RMS and be a little simpler for the application. I hve seen several people speak highly of the dayton equipment. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-810. It seems to be a good price right now on sale.

Thanks

Jeff

The fan replacement is simple and cheap. The box is not a necessity to start. A proper RCA to XLR cable should be fine. If you still have problems with a proper cable, then the conversion box would be an option.

I use the Behringer EP2500 with fantastic results. It is much better amplifier than the Dayton's.

 

[WmAx]

The fan swap is easy - it's the same type of fan and as complicated as changing out the fan in your computer case.

The Dayton amp is a joke. It has been measured by credible 3rd parties, and so has the Behringer. The Behringer can just about meets all of it's performance claims. The Dayton produces roughly 1/2 the power it claims to.

-Chris