DIY Kimber 8PR Type cable

[Michael5039]

Now I know that speaker cable is hardly important with regards to the overall system, but I am upgrading my cheap cable to something more permanent and want to get the best for my money.

I have bought some nice copper locking banana plugs from Nakamichi and now I have been looking around for good value for money cable.

Looking at the construction of the Kimber cable I see no reason why I couldnt make a few short runs for my main speakers as cheap as I can by standard 12 AWG cable, and seeing as the review of it was so good why not?

So just before I go ahead and do this, is there any issues with my plan? I found a cheap 100ft reel of teflon coated silver plated wire (I know the silver plating and teflon is unnecessary but its so cheap it doesnt really matter)

http://uk.farnell.com/alpha-wire/5851-bk005/wire-30-5m-30awg-spc-black/dp/1199096?mckv=KaTUKba9|pcrid|60420942669|plid|&CMP=KNC-GUK-FUK-GEN-LISTINGS

This is 30AWG so much thinner than the Kimber cables individual wires (I think they use about 20AWG), so I would need to use much more wires. The only issue I would see there is, would that produce an overly large capacitance?

 

[tyhjaarpa]

I would use this cable over the one you linked.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2789&seq=1&format=2

No reason to twist and what your cables.

 

[Michael5039]

I could use that (although I'd have to find a UK equivalent), but my point is that even on here, a site which ignores marketing hype, the Kimber 8PR cables were rated 5/5 for performance where the Belden 10AWG was only rated 4.5/5 I think. So given that I can make a similar cable as the Kimber cheaper than I can buy an 10 AWG cable in the UK, why not make it?

My question is more a long the lines is, using the kind of cable linked (with a Litz braid), would it be just as good as the Kimber cable? Or am I missing something from the Kimber construction? I understand its probably only going to be a slightly audible difference over a standard 10-12AWG cable but I quite like taking the time to make something nice so I dont mind effort. But, only if it definitely will be better.

 

[TLS Guy]

Now I know that speaker cable is hardly important with regards to the overall system, but I am upgrading my cheap cable to something more permanent and want to get the best for my money.

I have bought some nice copper locking banana plugs from Nakamichi and now I have been looking around for good value for money cable.

Looking at the construction of the Kimber cable I see no reason why I couldnt make a few short runs for my main speakers as cheap as I can by standard 12 AWG cable, and seeing as the review of it was so good why not?

So just before I go ahead and do this, is there any issues with my plan? I found a cheap 100ft reel of teflon coated silver plated wire (I know the silver plating and teflon is unnecessary but its so cheap it doesnt really matter)

http://uk.farnell.com/alpha-wire/5851-bk005/wire-30-5m-30awg-spc-black/dp/1199096?mckv=KaTUKba9|pcrid|60420942669|plid|&CMP=KNC-GUK-FUK-GEN-LISTINGS

This is 30AWG so much thinner than the Kimber cables individual wires (I think they use about 20AWG), so I would need to use much more wires. The only issue I would see there is, would that produce an overly large capacitance?

Ordinary 12 AWG twisted cable from the hardware store will be better than either option. The terminations on Kimber cable are not very robust and your cobbled cable is a waste of time.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Only difference with those 8PR cables is that they are looking fancy, thats it. Making such cable in my eyes is just waste of time and possibly making worse cable than singe 10/12AWG cable as you must have same lenght for those twisted cables and it would be harder to make the connectiong with them. Save your time and buy single 10/12 AWG, why to risk it?

 

[Michael5039]

As already stated, this is a DIY idea, and as already stated I already have locking banana plugs. Therefore, your point about the Kimber terminations is pretty irrelevant. You are arguing that 10/12 AWG is better yet the reviewers on this website, and the metrics disagree, so is your point really valid?

Yes I know the Kimber cable is expensive, but Im talking about making it, and with the link I found I could have enough wire to braid cables for my 2 main speakers, centre, and bedroom hifi for about £12, so for me the price is irrelevant. I dont mean to sound rude but I'm not looking for clearly cynical unjustified responses. Whether or not the difference is audible, I am interested in whether what I am suggesting would produce the same quality cable as the Kimber 8PR. So for now, ignore price and time invested, and just comment on the quality and metrics produced.

 

[rojo]

Whether or not the difference is audible, I am interested in whether what I am suggesting would produce the same quality cable as the Kimber 8PR. So for now, ignore price and time invested, and just comment on the quality and metrics produced.

That silver plated 30 gauge stuff you linked has a DC resistance of 94 ohms / 1000 feet. By contrast, 14awg oxygen-free copper speaker wire is ~2.5 ohms / 1000 feet. How many 30 gauge silver wires would need to be run in parallel to achieve the same? Somewhere around 38, if my math doesn't suck.

Make sure you go with oxygen-free copper rather than copper-clad aluminum or that silver-plated stuff. CCA is around 2/3 as efficient as OFC. For OFC, if running ~9 meters or less, the lower resistance of 12awg is not significantly better than 14awg. This stuff would probably be more than plenty:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001UNLRGC/

(reference: speaker cable gauge guide)

If you insist on braiding for the aesthetics, then 3x 18AWG OFC should be roughly equivalent (perhaps slightly better) than 1x 14AWG OFC.

There are other ways to make pretty cables, though. You might consider this nice looking 12 gauge cable pair, and maybe dress it up with some cable pants if you can find a domestic vendor for them, or if you don't mind ordering from Parts-Express. Cable braids are also nice (or this). You might also get some red and black shrink wrap to hide any soldering and make sure your cable pants don't fall off.

Regardless of the path you choose, you can still use your banana plugs.

 

[TLS Guy]

I could use that (although I'd have to find a UK equivalent), but my point is that even on here, a site which ignores marketing hype, the Kimber 8PR cables were rated 5/5 for performance where the Belden 10AWG was only rated 4.5/5 I think. So given that I can make a similar cable as the Kimber cheaper than I can buy an 10 AWG cable in the UK, why not make it?

My question is more a long the lines is, using the kind of cable linked (with a Litz braid), would it be just as good as the Kimber cable? Or am I missing something from the Kimber construction? I understand its probably only going to be a slightly audible difference over a standard 10-12AWG cable but I quite like taking the time to make something nice so I dont mind effort. But, only if it definitely will be better.

What idiot rated Belden 10 AWG cable 4.5 out of 5 and on what basis? Belden cables are universally of the highest quality.

This cable BS, really is annoying and very stupid.

This nonsense encourages people to waste oodles of money, or drives people like you to inferior stupid solutions, where a simple cheap solution is more than adequate and likely better.

If you seriously believe that 10 AWG Belden cable is a cable that can be improved upon, for a speaker cable, then you have sniffed the funny glue. Stop now or will will chase endless rainbows.

We have had a lot of looser time wasters with this sort on nonsense on these forums lately.

Now believe the advice we are giving you or depart the forum pronto.

We have had it with this type of BS

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, my Kimber Kable is very pretty looking. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[rojo]

Now believe the advice we are giving you or depart the forum pronto.

We have had it with this type of BS

At least he's not claiming that a $3000 platinum-dipped power cord with a battery attachment and isolation risers makes his speakers sound fluffy with a hint of sparkle. I get that you wanted to destroy any arguments before they started, but that was extreme.

As already stated, this is a DIY idea, and as already stated I already have locking banana plugs. Therefore, your point about the Kimber terminations is pretty irrelevant. You are arguing that 10/12 AWG is better yet the reviewers on this website, and the metrics disagree, so is your point really valid?

Michael, you could've asked this a little less confrontationally. Bear in mind that we try to encourage science over the homeopathic touchy-feely pseudo-scientific association of exotic and expensive with better. I would say that 10-12awg lamp cord is at least significantly more cost-effective than than Kimber Kable 8PR, whose product info on Amazon claims an aggregate wire size of two 10awg conductors.

Tensions rise when you notice the rest of the product info: "8PR provides sound that is full bodied and powerful." No, it doesn't. That's misleading, and it's claims like that which need to be razed from the face of the Earth. What it does is it provides a signal path of negligible DC resistance, while costing about $150 more than is necessary. You would not be able to tell the difference in a blind listening test between 8 feet of Kimber Kable and 8 feet of 16awg OFC. That's what's so offensive about the claim that Kimber Kable is better than Belden Cable. It just isn't true, and it's unfortunate that customers vote with their dollars for clever marketing over substance. They get placebo effect improvements, when they could've gotten actual and measurable improvements by upgrading to better speakers.

I think dressing up a set of cables is not a bad project, though. You won't be the first, nor the last. There is a certain pride and satisfaction to be gained from completing a project like this.

 

[TLS Guy]

Second issue in about 12 hours.

We need a sticky about cable posts: something like this.

Wire is wire. The function of the speaker cable is to transmit power from the amplifier to the speaker.

The only requirement for the cable is that it have a low enough resistance so the response curve does not start to follow the impedance curve of the loudspeaker. We are not interested in talking about any other aspect of speaker cables.

If you are uncertain as to the wire size required to fulfill the above objective, please state the model and brand of the speakers in question and the length of the cable run. With this information the members will only be too happy to assist you. Apart from cosmetics there is nothing further to be said concerning speaker cables.

Power Cables:

Please do not post making claims that a power cable will change the sound of any component in your system.

All that is required of a power cable is that it be large enough to provide enough current without warming up.

If your cable is room temperature, then you power cable is fine. Any claims that changing the power cable is anything other than a waste of money is plainly daft and without any foundation whatsoever. Please do not argue the point.

In the highly unlikely possibility a power cable heats noticeably in use, then buy a bigger one.

That is all there is to say on these two issues. As far as I'm concerned these discussions will now be cut off at the pass.

 

[markw]

I too am curious what the metrics are for that claimed 5/5 or 4.5/5 comparison. Belden has, for as long as I can remember, been the standard bearer for cable quality and remains so.

Now, if you what to make a pretty cable that looks like an expensive cable, have at it, but as for it "sounding" better than standard cables, well, I'd like a little more tangible evidence.

If you're here to get assurance that it will "sound great", I think you took the wrong exit off the parkway.

 

[highfigh]

What idiot rated Belden 10 AWG cable 4.5 out of 5 and on what basis? Belden cables are universally of the highest quality.

Ray Kimber?

 

[Michael5039]

How about people just read the reviews:
http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/kimber-kable-8pr/kk4pr-8prlisteningtests
http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/blue-jeans-10awg-speaker-cable-5t00up

So in answer to your question it was Gene DellaSala who reviewed them according to those.

It is ironic you all talk of science yet take a completely un-scientific approach in both your attitude and responses. You talk of using subjective, vague descriptions of cable yet respond with exactly the same. You assume you already know everything there is to know and that what there is to know is definitely correct. Now I am not one to believe stupid marketing hype, although I think you'd be stupid to believe the Belden cable cant be improved upon, the question is whether the improvements are noticeable. An obvious example would be a super conductor, it would obviously have properties MUCH better than the Belden cable - but is it noticeable. I think it would be, it just wouldnt be VERY noticeable. However, given the choice, you would take a cable with the properties of a super conductor over the Belden because why not take the better cable?

If you believe that what is transmitted to the speaker is nothing but power then you clearly need to go away and learn about how a speaker works. The profile of the voltage curve is directly correlated to the position of the speaker and therefore you want the most unedited form of that. Now I have never heard expensive cables so have nothing to go by so am only going by the metrics supplied by the reviews I've shown and the reviews themselves. Regardless, this isn't what I was intending on discussing or the question I asked. I had specifically asked a question in a certain way to avoid the type of answers I received.

All I wanted to know, was if I bought individual small gauge wires and braided them, whether that would produce the same electrical properties. I've already said I don't mind making the cable, I like DIY projects; I've made my own drum kit, my own speaker stands, my own hifi stand etc. As already stated, Im not interested in looking at price at the moment, especially when considering I think given the tools I could make a Kimber like cable cheaper than the Belden. I wanted a scientific response not what you gave TLS Guy, you're clearly someone who feels like they know much more than they do, all science is just theory so don't talk like you know there is no possibility any of these things can make a difference because you dont know (I probably agree with some of the things you have said but the point is the way it was expressed). Also, for one thing, if something annoys you enough, ignore it and let someone else answer, its not hard, and its not your forum so dont talk like it is. For christ sake it was one of the actual reviewers opinions that angered you so much and he actually works for the site!

 

[Steve81]

So in answer to your question it was Gene DellaSala who reviewed them according to those.

Now I am not one to believe stupid marketing hype, although I think you'd be stupid to believe the Belden cable cant be improved upon, the question is whether the improvements are noticeable. An obvious example would be a super conductor, it would obviously have properties MUCH better than the Belden cable - but is it noticeable.

Referring back to the Kimber review:

I am not one who attempts to discern the subtle sonic differences cables convey on an audio system. I am a firm believer that only poorly designed cables can under the right conditions be sonically distinguishable. That being said, my listening tests focused on pure enjoyment of the sound quality of my reference system. At no point did I feel the Kimber cables were adding a level of realism I’ve never heard before with my standard 10AWG Blue Jeans zip cord. Never did I feel the midrange got more chocolatey or a magic veil was lifted. My wife never claimed she could hear the difference all the way from the kitchen while she was cooking up some chicken Marsala.

All I wanted to know, was if I bought individual small gauge wires and braided them, whether that would produce the same electrical properties.

Note that not all braids are equal; see the Speaker Cable Faceoff 3 where they used a few runs of CAT5 braided a couple different ways to see how that went:
http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/diy-speaker-cable-faceoff

 

[highfigh]

Referring back to the Kimber review:





Note that not all braids are equal; see the Speaker Cable Faceoff 3 where they used a few runs of CAT5 braided a couple different ways to see how that went:
http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/diy-speaker-cable-faceoff

'Chocolatey mid-range' is one of my favorite ways to describe sound.

 

[Michael5039]

Cheers Steve, that link was pretty useful!