Dispelling Common HTPC / Media Center Myths

<P><A href="http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/buyingguides/HTPCmythsMCE.php"><IMG style="WIDTH: 125px; HEIGHT: 94px" alt=[MCE] hspace=10 src="http://www.audioholics.com/news/thumbs/MCE_th.jpg" align=left border=0></A>Arguably, Media Centers are currently the most misunderstood home theater components available in the marketplace today. Yet, media centers are also one of the most revolutionary home theater products available. Why is there this huge discrepancy? Unfortunately, the term “Media Center” is used by many manufacturers for products that could arguably never possibly act as a home theater device. Virtually all computers sold by DELL &amp; Gateway that include Microsoft’s Media Center software are called “Media Centers,” but they cannot possibly act as an entertainment appliance connected to your TV or home theater. Unsuspecting customers purchase these systems, end up being disappointed, and ultimately “damn Media Centers to hell”. Quite honestly, we can’t blame them – the industry is at fault for the lack of standards, vagueness, and improper use of the term "Media Center."

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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Interesting articles. I personally believe that the home Media Center will soon be the heart of a true theater. The MS Vista will become the heart of many setups and we will see all content begin to swing to that format.

I do feel that perhaps the top reason that we don't see the takeoff of the HTPC right now is specifically because cable and satellite can't be hooked up to them. Forget OTA content! That's a freakin' joke right? HBO HD, ESPN-HD, all my digital channels!!! I expect that first and foremost a HTPC should act like my DVR from my cable company. It should be something I turn on and it works all the time (almost). In the real world, I don't want to switch to a OTA tuner - and I don't - ever! So, for what I need it for most of all, the Tivo functionality for my shows, it is a miserable failure! Vista is the obvious answer to this since cable and sat companies are in negotiations to provide CableCard/SatCard type devices for the HTPC.

In the bigger picture, as the HTPC becomes more prevalent, I think we may see it integrated into surround receivers, so that you get full 7.1 audio, amplification, cable/sat, DVD playback, online content, etc. from a true all-in-one box. Taking it further, it may be integrated into LCD and plasma displays. Hang it on the wall, run one cable to it, power, and have wi-fi in your home and you are set. These displays will have an integrated DVD (or HD disc) player built in, be able to record your shows, be networkable and be able to pull up online content, etc. yet won't require ANY additional wiring to be run to them!

But, to think that the HTPC is 'there' is a joke right now. They are still based on fairly buggy systems and one of the biggest things other computer based products have going for them is that they typically exist on closed networks. That is, they can't get a virus, they aren't routinely hacked. Your HD disc players, even when tied to the Internet, can't download random content that completely destorys those players. Likewise, your cable box doesn't go out on the Internet and pick up a virus. The HTPC, to be effective, has to have that capability, which opens them up to serious vulnerabilities.

Let's not even get started on what the line "Play, catalogue, and store DVD videos" really means since it is categorically illegal to rip almost ALL commercial DVDs to a hard drive since it breaks their encryption. So not one HTPC can legally do what that statement implies.
 
I certainly have some opinions on the subject (not for tweakers)... I think a big thing to consider is the fact that these should be thought of as "finished" boxes. The moment you try to go in and provide your own upgrades (without the manufacturer's involvement) you risk destabilizing the current system software and application compatibility (I think the latin for this is "openus canis wormus"). That's what half the problem is with existing tech. Typically, no one seeks to update their DVD players unless there is a bug. When an upgrade is available it is provided by the manufacturer with specific instructions.

CableCARD will be cool, but for the most part I only watch OTA-compatible HDTV anyway - the rest is supplied as standard definition via the cable provider... so having a SD tuner plus OTA HD recording into an aggregated OSD isn't so bad or ridiculous (boy that's a lot of acronyms!) Add to that the presence of new CableCARD tech and you're potentially off to the races...

I have yet to hear about an HTPC being "hacked" and fear that this may be one of those myths needing to be dispelled - or at least an occurence that is so uncommon as to be insignificant, unless one disables Windows updates and /or installs third party apps.

Bottom line - buy the box from a reputable manufacturer who knows what they are doing and tests the products to be stable and WORK. Then DON'T TOUCH IT. If it ain't broke, stop messing with it. If you want an upgrade, go through the manufacturer, or risk destabilizing the system. Start thinking of HTPCs as a high-end set-top box.

HTPCs can work, and they are getting even better. I'll be covering this topic in greater detail through the end of the year as we get more and more into that subject from a consumer electronics (not tweaker) standpoint.

As for ripping and storing your own DVDs... read between the lines on most manufacturer's websites and you'll soon be enjoying that feature as well.
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
I am a little skeptical of the data provided by the other site on performance. All the reviews I have read put their performance way behind any dedicated DVD player.( i.e. Cyberlink Power DVD, Theater Tek DVD 1.5, Windows Media Center, Intervideo WinDVD Plus 4, Sonic CinePlayer, etc.)

All but three or four of the DVD players used for comparison did not reflect the best of technology as was represented by the two video cards which lacked MPEG4, HDMI, and HDCP compliance. What happens with ITC when implemented is also not discussed.

Their discussion on the sharpness test also leaves one wondering if the reviewer really new anything about video quality. I have viewed several HTPC systems and have yet to see one that matches the performance of a good dedicated DVD player. And for the price of upgrading to high quality video cards, a dedicated DVD player makes even more sense from an economic stand point.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
I was just reading where the cable card was all but about dead since most DVR's are digital set top boxes, and you lose so much flexibility when you lose the set top box.

I don't know what we'd do without our HD DVR. Sure, we only get a handful of HD channels, but the ability to record and pause live TV is priceless. To have to mess with a media center to do what a simple, leased HD DVR does doesn't seem economical.

I agree that OTA HD programming is neat. Why pay for the big 4 HD networks when they're free? The only issue is you must live within city limits, or have a mast antenna to receive these signals. Many times half your stations are in the direction of the antenna, and the others (pbs) are the other direction.
 
VidaBox

VidaBox

<a href="http://www.vidabox.com/" target="_blank">
Hi BMXTRIX,

Thanks for reading the article. You have a few points that I want to address:

BMXTRIX said:
I do feel that perhaps the top reason that we don't see the takeoff of the HTPC right now is specifically because cable and satellite can't be hooked up to them. Forget OTA content! ...Vista is the obvious answer to this since cable and sat companies are in negotiations to provide CableCard/SatCard type devices for the HTPC.
Yes, this is definitely a challenging problem - HD content from set-top boxes cannot be directly streamed and viewed on HTPCs at the moment. However, a workaround is having built-in HDTV OTA tuners, which are available in systems such as the HDTV editions of the VidaBox SLIM, LUX, MAX and ZERO. By having HDTV tuners built-in, you can actually record up to 2 HD channels AND 2 analog channels - for a total of 4 channels, at the same time, which is something that no set-top box can do, and there's no need to "switch over" to a OTA tuner.

In addition, many people who currently have satellite have to pay extra for local channels, so it's nice to be able to get the channels for free. As for channels like HBO-HD & ESPN-HD - if you wanted to record those channels, you can still do so in standard definition and not miss your show. It's also an alternative to buying a high definition recorder which doesn't let you burn CDs/DVDs of your shows, nor stream your media inexpensively to other rooms in your house.

When CableCARD finally comes out, everything above will become a non-issue. As a side note, some manufacturers may have an "upgrade program" (such as ours) so that you can always get an upgrade and not have to make another $3000 investment in another media center.

BMXTRIX said:
In the bigger picture, as the HTPC becomes more prevalent, I think we may see it integrated into surround receivers, so that you get full 7.1 audio, amplification, cable/sat, DVD playback, online content, etc. from a true all-in-one box. Taking it further, it may be integrated into LCD and plasma displays. Hang it on the wall, run one cable to it, power, and have wi-fi in your home and you are set. These displays will have an integrated DVD (or HD disc) player built in, be able to record your shows, be networkable and be able to pull up online content, etc. yet won't require ANY additional wiring to be run to them!
It's definitely a cool idea, but I don't necessarily see the advantages to having surround sound receivers being integrated into Media Centers, because many people still want to be able connect their VCRs for their VHS tapes, turntables, gaming systems, and other auxiliary devices. If a system is properly installed, there really are no additional buttons to click, so a home theater isn't "easier to use" if a receiver was integrated into the Media Center.

Prices also run the gamut on price and features, from $100 to several thousand dollars. Multiply the number of receiver selections by the number of media center choices available, and it becomes very difficult for someone to choose a product for his/her needs. For example, everyone's requirements for a receiver are different - some want more power, and some want more inputs, etc.
Also, many people already have very expensive, good-quality receivers, such as a Denon or an Onkyo. These systems took the manufacturers years and years to design and perfect, so a receiver integrated into the media center must meet or beat the sound and video quality of the receiver. The same argument could be said for "why replace the DVD player with a media center," but as Myth #4 says, you do get superior video quality in a media center vs. a $2000 high-end DVD player, so there is a reason why upgrading to a media center & replacing your DVD player makes sense.

In the end, I think the point of integration is to make something easier to use or to provide a better functionality and/or performance. Replacing a current home theater system with a media center brings a new plethora of features and functionality that isn't available inexpensively, such as media streaming, storage protection, etc.

BMXTRIX said:
But, to think that the HTPC is 'there' is a joke right now. They are still based on fairly buggy systems....
As for bugginess, you sound very familiar with HTPC technology, so I can understand your frustrations with "buggy machines" out there. However, like many other products, prices and quality will run the gamut with Media Centers. Just for my curiosity, can you tell me what brands and systems (a model number would be great) that you've had these problems with?

BMXTRIX said:
...one of the biggest things other computer based products have going for them is that they typically exist on closed networks. That is, they can't get a virus, they aren't routinely hacked. Your HD disc players, even when tied to the Internet, can't download random content that completely destorys those players. Likewise, your cable box doesn't go out on the Internet and pick up a virus. The HTPC, to be effective, has to have that capability, which opens them up to serious vulnerabilities.
You have some excellent points about possible HTPC vulnerabilities. However, a media center install should include a hardware firewall at the incoming connection, along with a software firewall, antivirus, and antispyware defense on the system. Systems that are "routinely hacked" are vulnerable because the security wasn't there in the first place. The only time problems happen is if someone deliberately downloads something, and even then, that's where the antivirus and antispyware software kick in. Any system out there is vulnerable, but having proper security in place prevents any problems from happening.

BMXTRIX said:
Let's not even get started on what the line "Play, catalogue, and store DVD videos" really means since it is categorically illegal to rip almost ALL commercial DVDs to a hard drive since it breaks their encryption. So not one HTPC can legally do what that statement implies.
Of course, no media center / HTPC manufacturer's system can natively rip commerical DVDs to a hard drive "out-of-the-box" due to legal issues, but most customers are smart and savvy enough to "solve that problem." For example, one workaround method of "Playing & catalogging DVDs" on the VidaBox is to connect it with a DVD changer. As Clint said, "reading between the lines" will reveal other "cleaner" and "inexpensive" solutions that are available on the open, public forums.

---

Keep in mind, with CableCARD is coming out, and the proper security in place, no other system at this price level can stream music, video, TV shows, store pictures, automated slideshows, create DVD/CDs, provide protection against hard drive failure, and more in a single unit controlled by one remote.

Thanks again for your feedback!

Steven Cheung
VidaBox LLC
 
VidaBox

VidaBox

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Hi Westcott,

westcott said:
I am a little skeptical of the data provided by the other site on performance. All the reviews I have read put their performance way behind any dedicated DVD player.( i.e. Cyberlink Power DVD, Theater Tek DVD 1.5, Windows Media Center, Intervideo WinDVD Plus 4, Sonic CinePlayer, etc.)
Can you tell us or give a link to the reviews that you read? I'm wondering how they compared performance and what standard/benchmarks were used. The link given in Myth 4 uses the HQV benchmark, which is (mostly) a quantitive test, so their chose a good benchmark.

westcott said:
All but three or four of the DVD players used for comparison did not reflect the best of technology as was represented by the two video cards which lacked MPEG4, HDMI, and HDCP compliance. What happens with ITC when implemented is also not discussed.
I'm not sure if you are aware, but HDCP is a data protection (DRM) standard (like CSS on DVDs) and has nothing to do with quality.

Their discussion on the sharpness test also leaves one wondering if the reviewer really new anything about video quality. I have viewed several HTPC systems and have yet to see one that matches the performance of a good dedicated DVD player. And for the price of upgrading to high quality video cards, a dedicated DVD player makes even more sense from an economic stand point.
I'm wondering.. which HTPC systems have you viewed? Do you happen to remember the brand/system and a model number?

Please keep in mind - there is a tremendous difference between a true media center manufacturer vs. a system builder that put a computer together with TV-outs (Myth #7). Much like Henry Ford's Model T vs. the cars of today, media centers have also come a long way.

Thanks for the feedback!

Steven Cheung
VidaBox LLC
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
VidaBox - I've never owned a HTPC per se. That is, I have read on forums about issues and I have seen them at trade shows at times. Including the most recent CEDIA where the several thousand dollar ($10K+!) version running Vista on one setup and MCE on another version both required reboots during my use of them at the show. At the biggest show of the year - a buggy product was shown and played with by consumers at a VERY high price tag. Not a good showing I believe.

I personally am waiting for the Vista versions. I do have several PCs in my home which run through a Extra switcher and feed my plasma/projection setup, but I rarely use them since my DVD player and HD cable/DVR are just as accessible and give me all that I want... for now. I do have an iMerge and a Request digital music server... and Crestron to control it all, so I'm coming at this a little differently than others.

As for the 'all-in-one' box, I've gotta disagree on that. You see, already the complete HTIB setup that includes everything is pretty darn popular. There are some who want to connect legacy gear, but more and more people are eliminating their VCR from their setup and not using anything but a DVD player and cable box. So, an all-in-one HTIB/HTPC combo unit gives a true one box solution. HDMI to the display, 7.1 speakers... just to confuse people... and perhaps a couple of aux inputs for fun just like the HTIB systems currently offer.

Throw in a Blu-ray recorder and you are really talkin'! My expectation is that this is no less than 5 years down the road as pricing and penetration of the HTPC really begins to take off. Perhaps we will see something closer to a complete OS on a chip for these types of devices. I have no personal doubts that physical media (DVDs/HD discs) will be obsolete in coming years and the HTPC will be the heart of the system.

Keep in mind that some new receivers today do incorporate streaming of music from computers to the receiver and XM Ready is showing up more and more as well as iPod ready. The receiver is becoming more and more PC like... Just add a hard drive and an Internet browser and CableCard....
 
N

ned

Full Audioholic
Personally, I don't think HTPC is ready for prime time. The lack of Premium HD recording is the main obstacle. I hardly watch SD programing except for news.

Cable card? Sure! I've been waiting for 2 years now to be made available on computer.

At this point stand alone HD DVR is what seems practical for my application.
 
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hopjohn

Full Audioholic
slow down there captain

I began reading this artilcle without first knowing whom it was authored by. As I got further into it, it began reading more and more like an advertisement. So after I completed the read I wasn't suprised to see a company name associated with it.

The fact is that if your'e not concerned with recording satellite or cable programming a HTPC makes a lot of sense. BUT....buying a pre-made HTPC is a complete waste of money if you have some knowledge of building a computer and spend a little time in a few forums dedicated to the subject. If this is the type of thing you can do on your own, then sorry to say, this article is an insult to your intelligence. I know first hand that building a HTPC is not rocket science. Stability issues have become a thing of the past when built with the appropriate hardware and software now available. I haven't researched this product but would assume that user upgrades are probably not supported, which means you are either required to spend extra money to have it done for you or void some warranty if you decide to go at it yourself.

If your lazy or just have money to burn I'm sure that these products will serve you well, but FYI, this article is a little slippery with snake oil. I don't mean to rock the boat or insult anyone, but do your homework, and you'll see that the negatives of building your own HTPC are exagerrated in this article. In my opinion these exagerrations are done with the intent of steering you to buy from them. Obviously this is fine, but knowledge is power, and for those so willing and capable just know that I'm living testimony that an attractive, easy to use, reliable, quiet, virus free HTPC CAN be custom built.

EDIT: After looking at the price of the bottom line unit ($4399) I just thought I'd mention that this is quadruple what I paid to build mine from the ground up. The processing is identical, yet I have HD functionality, and you'd have to spend another 300 clams with them for that. Also I have 250gb more hard drive capacity, and have seperate drives for the operating system and recording, they may but make that unclear. You do get the the dual SD isf tuners....but umm what good are they if your display isn't isf calibrated as well?
 
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hopjohn said:
you'll see that the negatives of building your own HTPC are exagerrated in this article.
You have the right to your opinion, but you make some very sweeping generalizations and assumptions - and you don't seem to understand that the article isn't written to people like you (DIY crowd). With respect to a Media Center, "stability" doesn't refer to the PC crashing when running WindowsXP - it refers to the true ability of the box to be able to do what it says - record dual streams of TV (or more) while outputting digital audio via S/PDIF, streaming music, etc...

This stuff apparently IS rocket science and I have plenty of experience that tells me that you can't simply slap a bunch of parts together and know that they are intercompatible (hence my unused home-brew HTPC in my own system). Now add in video issues, deinterlacing, resolution matching to your display... Here are over 1 MILLION Google results that support my point:

http://www.google.com/search?q=problems+with+my+HTPC

Others may have better luck than me - and that's awesome. If you are a DIY'er - you would never buy an HTPC from a company like VidaBox - and this article isn't meant for you. Comments from the DIY crowd are necessarily excluded from this article because they aren't relevant - you're not the intended reader (meaning it's not written to you).

Sure you can build your own box - and many do... But they spend countless hours online troubleshooting - and many of these systems NEVER end up being used by their significant others (or at all) because they never quite work 100% as intended.

My time is worth more than that.

DIY'ers are not WRONG - they are simply a different customer who would never buy from a Media Center msanufacturer - and that's cool, too.
 
VidaBox

VidaBox

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hopjohn said:
I began reading this artilcle without first knowing whom it was authored by. As I got further into it, it began reading more and more like an advertisement. So after I completed the read I wasn't suprised to see a company name associated with it.

The fact is that if your'e not concerned with recording satellite or cable programming a HTPC makes a lot of sense. BUT....buying a pre-made HTPC is a complete waste of money if you have some knowledge of building a computer and spend a little time in a few forums dedicated to the subject. If this is the type of thing you can do on your own, then sorry to say, this article is an insult to your intelligence. I know first hand that building a HTPC is not rocket science. Stability issues have become a thing of the past when built with the appropriate hardware and software now available. I haven't researched this product but would assume that user upgrades are probably not supported, which means you are either required to spend extra money to have it done for you or void some warranty if you decide to go at it yourself.

If your lazy or just have money to burn I'm sure that these products will serve you well, but FYI, this article is a little slippery with snake oil. I don't mean to rock the boat or insult anyone, but do your homework, and you'll see that the negatives of building your own HTPC are exagerrated in this article. In my opinion these exagerrations are done with the intent of steering you to buy from them. Obviously this is fine, but knowledge is power, and for those so willing and capable just know that I'm living testimony that an attractive, easy to use, reliable, quiet, virus free HTPC CAN be custom built.

EDIT: After looking at the price of the bottom line unit ($4399) I just thought I'd mention that this is quadruple what I paid to build mine from the ground up. The processing is identical, yet I have HD functionality, and you'd have to spend another 300 clams with them for that. Also I have 250gb more hard drive capacity, and have seperate drives for the operating system and recording, they may but make that unclear. You do get the the dual SD isf tuners....but umm what good are they if your display isn't isf calibrated as well?
Thanks for your thoughts. I just want to correct a couple of your comments and shed some light on the BYO subject.

The starting price for a VidaBox media center system is actually $1,549 (not $4399 as you mentioned).

I just want to clarify and say that the article was not meant to insult anybody. We sincerely apologize if it has done so. The article was meant to shed some light on common HTPC misconceptions.

The comment that you made about "buying a pre-built HTPC being a waste of money if you know how to build a computer and spend a little time" is really not fair. That same comment could be applied to almost anything. Why go out to a restaurant when you cook a meal at home for less? Why go to Jiffy Lube when you can change your own oil at home? Why buy fish from the market when you can go fishing for free from a lake or ocean? The common answer to all those questions is convenience. It really has nothing to do with laziness. The last example is a hobby and is done for fun. It is my opinion that most people that decide to build their own HTPC do so because they think it will be fun. They like the challenge and the feeling of accomplishment when it has been completed. We at VidaBox think that is great and are not discouraging people from building their own systems.

What we did want to clarify is that just because you find an "HTPC recipe" on the web, doesn't mean that success is automatically guaranteed. The proof to that is the endless amount of posts on HTPC forums for help. We also want to add that not all HTPC hardware will work as advertised. Also, not all hardware will have the same amount of features. You may end up buying something only to figure out two months later that it is missing a feature that you now need.

I will provide two examples to showcase my point (I could provide a laundry list of them):

1: You would think that all media centers should be able to interface with a set-top box so that you can tune in premium channels. The only way that Media Centers can do that is by using IR blasters (there are ways to control via USB or firewire but they are complicated and not support by all set-top boxes). Out of the endless amount of hardware choices, there are only two pieces of hardware that will allow you to do that. You need a Microsoft remote with its IR receiver or a Hauppauge tuner card (and not all their cards can do that). Those are your only two choices as far as retail products. Buy the wrong hardware and you will not be able to control your set-top box. This might not be important for everybody but it a must for anyone that wants to record HBO, Showtime, or other premium channels.

2: A Media Center should be able to pass through Dolby Digital and DTS sound to a surround sound receiver via an SPDIF connection. Now DD and DTS can be encoded in 44.1 khz or 48 khz. All sound cards and motherboards with an SPDIF connection can pass through the DTS and DD signal without a problem - the only hitch is that there is only a handful of sound chipsets that can automatically switch from one frequency to the other. If the chipset doesn’t support automatic switching, you have to manually go into the sound driver configuration to switch to the desired frequency depending on what your playing back. Add insult to injury, almost all movies are encoded at the 48 Khz and CD/mp3 music is at 44.1 khz. If you leave your soundcard at the 48K frequency and then decide to playback a CD or MP3, Windows will upconvert the song to 48K and, in the process, reduce its quality. Playback 44.1K DTS and all you hear is static. You want to hear the kicker? Almost none of the dedicated sound cards can automatically switch between the two frequencies. Talk about killing the WAF. Here is a test for all you that have an HTPC - see if you can playback the DTS surround test file from this site (URL is at the bottom). If you hear static, that means that your card cannot set the frequency to 44.1 khz and you are not listening to music in it’s unmolested, pristine condition. You may say that it’s not a big deal but it’s important for people who want to play back DTS encoded music CD’s. You can also learn more about this little talked about problem on our forum here.
44.1K DTS surround link

I can only speak for VidaBox. All of our systems have the above features as well many other little added features that seem to be meaningless but end up being extremely important to the person that needs them. We have done the work for you so that you can sit back and simply enjoy the system. You won’t hit roadblocks two months later because it’s missing a feature that you now need. People who purchase our systems want the convenience that it provides - and that, my friends, isn't a waste of money.

Please excuse the long post. I encourage thoughts and feedback on my post.

Sergio DeAlbuquerque
VidaBox, LLC
 
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hopjohn

Full Audioholic
Obviously I've ruffled some feathers here and so I apologize. I usually reserve my posts for topics I have interest and knowledge in so it's pretty disheartening when my opinions are made to feel unwelcome. Myth #9 was the prompting for my response which brought DIY into the discussion, or at least I thought. My comments probably were somewhat generalized, but I doubt I'm the only one guilty of that in these forums, in fact I know it.

Home built HTPCs are difficult to build no doubt, and my initial efforts several years ago were frustrating since the hardware wasn't up to the task. I think recent improvements in hardware and software have made signifigant strides in eliminating many of the issues discussed in the article, making it a viable option. I don't know for sure but I think Clint's last attempt was before many of these improvements were available and have a feeling he would be much more successful should he decide to try again.
 
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hopjohn

Full Audioholic
Clint DeBoer said:
No need, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't intended for a DIY'er.
Yea you've made that abundantly clear, but I 100% disagree that a response isn't warranted. I probably would have left this alone, but now I feel like I'm being patronized. Why not just acccept my apology and leave it at that?

If the article made no mention of DIY, I could see your point, but it does and also intimates that doing it yourself is a bad idea. Not only that, but the article phrases some of the text in question form almost begging for a response. Also keep in mind that as a DIYer I'm not responding to benefit myself or other DIYers, I and they already have a HTPC. I'm posting In hope of benefiting those sitting on the fence. That is the basis for nearly all my posts here, helping people to make educated decisions. I really hate that I have to explain myself in this way, but you don't seem to understand where I'm coming from either and want to blow off my comments as being irrelevant since I'd "never buy" one.

As far as making sweeping generalizations go, I'd say the below quote has its fair share.

Dispelling Common HTPC / Media Center Myths said:
Myth 9: I can just convert my current computer to a Media Center or simply build one myself and save money

Perhaps – as the old saying goes – “Good, Fast, Cheap – pick two.” Go onto the various DIY forums, such as TheGreenButton, and see the myriad of problems that DIYers have with their systems. Look on the threads describing people’s problems. Have every single one of these threads been answered?

If you decide to build your own media centers – expect problems. Most DIYers assume that physically building the system is all that is required, when the reality is that software tweaking, a topic unfamiliar to most, is what causes the majority of bugs and problems. Many of the people who've "finished" their HTPCs are actually nowhere near finished - the PHYSICAL box is complete; there is video and audio coming out – but there are still dozens of bugs on their systems. Does it crash? Can you use just the remote, or will you need to get a keyboard & mouse? How often is maintenance required? How is the video and audio quality? Even if you have SPDIF, can you perfectly pass bit-for-bit digital DTS or Dolby Digital audio to a receiver? Lastly, can your wife/significant other use it without difficulty?
 
VidaBox

VidaBox

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hopjohn said:
As far as making sweeping generalizations go, I'd say the below quote has its fair share.
Hi hopjohn,

Let me clarify what I tried to say in Myth #9.

The "Good, Fast, Cheap" principle is something that I've seen to be true over the years. The whole point is - anybody *can* build an inexpensive HTPC on your own, but for an average person, be prepared to spend quite a bit of time on it for troubleshooting/tweaking. Obviously, it'll be less time for someone who's had years of experience such as yourself, versus someone who's really just your everyday, average computer user.

What I mean in "If you decide to build your own media centers – expect problems" is that there'll usually be some little bug or quirk after the build is finished, whether it be something quick, like a driver update, SPDIF setting tweaking, or sometimes it can be major, like incompatible hardware. Some "problems" aren't even seen as problems by experienced builders and are just "quick tweaks" that are solved in 2 minutes, while the same issue may be seen as a major roadblock by someone less technically-savvy, who can't resolve it even after spending 2 days on it - which is where the "good, fast, cheap" comes in. Can you agree with me that any problem can eventually be solved, given enough time & effort?

To make an analogy, take cooking. I'm not a good cook, so if I wanted to make something like chicken with black bean sauce, I'll probably make several mistakes and have to complete several more attempts before I learn & figure out why the food didn't taste right. However, if a gourmet chef was cooking it, s/he can taste the sauce and quickly add the "corrective spices" to make it taste right on the first shot within seconds. The difference is in the experience.

You say that you want to help people to make educated decisions and we really respect that. We want to do the same, but we are taking it from the average joe/jane's perspective. I think we can all agree that you're vastly superior in knowledge & experience when it comes to system building, but please realize that your opinion of HTPCs being easy to build is very subjective and probably not true for most people. Just because it boots up, it doesn't mean that it's finished. The majority of people really don't have the necessary skills to quickly troubleshoot the system, just as most people don't have gourmet cooking skills, know how to change their own oil, etc.

We don't want to disuade people from building their own systems, but we want them to be fully aware of the potential problems that they may face, which is why we recommend folks to visit TGB forums before they make a final decision.

Again, to reiterate, if you have the experience, then building an HTPC may be a walk in the park for you. However, for someone less experienced, seemingly minor problems may turn into major hurdles very quickly.

Thanks for writing back!

Steven Cheung
VidaBox LLC
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
A more affordable HTPC

Mr Cheung,

Will Vidabox introduce a more affordable model? I think the market is there, especially for younger buyers that can't afford the current prices of HTPCs right now.
 
VidaBox

VidaBox

<a href="http://www.vidabox.com/" target="_blank">
stratman said:
Mr Cheung,

Will Vidabox introduce a more affordable model? I think the market is there, especially for younger buyers that can't afford the current prices of HTPCs right now.
Hi stratman,

As of right now, the Roommate, starting at $1549, is our most affordable model. Every VidaBox is a fully-featured, premium media center, so you can be assured that you'll be getting a quality system anytime you buy. At the present time, there are no plans to introduce less expensive models, although there are plans are in the works to create special financing programs for certain VidaBox models, with options like 12 months interest-free financing or fixed payments for 24 months.

Please feel free to give us a call or email us if you'd like to learn more about and take advantage of these programs!

Thanks for writing!

Steven Cheung
VidaBox LLC
 
H

hopjohn

Full Audioholic
VidaBox said:
The "Good, Fast, Cheap" principle is something that I've seen to be true over the years. The whole point is - anybody *can* build an inexpensive HTPC on your own, but for an average person, be prepared to spend quite a bit of time on it for troubleshooting/tweaking. Obviously, it'll be less time for someone who's had years of experience such as yourself, versus someone who's really just your everyday, average computer user.
I qualified my intended audience in a previous post with this:
hopjohn said:
buying a pre-made HTPC is a complete waste of money if you have some knowledge of building a computer and spend a little time in a few forums dedicated to the subject. If this is the type of thing you can do on your own, then sorry to say, this article is an insult to your intelligence.
Never have I said an "average computer user" should attempt this. In my opinion if you post on these forums with any frequency, it can be reasonbably assumed that your technical knowledge goes beyond that of an "average computer user". I really don't get why you and Clint are so overly concerned that I might negatively influence someone incapable of acknowledging the limit of their technical abilities. Those types are going to do as they will regardless. While I appreciate your concern for someone getting in over their head, I think you underestimate the abilities of many of the people that visit these forums. In so doing you exaggerate the difficulty of troubleshooting in a forum in which an entire section, albeit audio related, is devoted. Is it such a stretch to consider someone who has technical troubleshooting experience in one area might translate those same experiences and processes to something they might be a little less familiar? The inability to afford your products, and the unwillingness to spend the kind of money it requires to obtain one of your products can motivate someone to be very resourceful.

VidaBox said:
What I mean in "If you decide to build your own media centers – expect problems" is that there'll usually be some little bug or quirk after the build is finished, whether it be something quick, like a driver update, SPDIF setting tweaking, or sometimes it can be major, like incompatible hardware. Some "problems" aren't even seen as problems by experienced builders and are just "quick tweaks" that are solved in 2 minutes, while the same issue may be seen as a major roadblock by someone less technically-savvy, who can't resolve it even after spending 2 days on it - which is where the "good, fast, cheap" comes in. Can you agree with me that any problem can eventually be solved, given enough time & effort?
Here again you are trying to infer MY INTENDED AUDIENCE is an average computer user. So saying the following will help further qualify who I am and I am not speaking to.

All average computer users out there Listen carefully!!! If in 2 days you can't go to your audio settings and make sure your spdif out is set or feel uncomfortable unconvering any of the mysteries of any of the other configuration situations Steven mentions, DO NOT build your own HTPC. I am posting here only for the benefit of people with at least some computer building experience who are considering building an HTPC, and are willing to spend some time in forums dedicated to building HTPCs. If you do not qualify under these terms and conditions I'm asking that you consider buying from VidaBox, if you can afford it.

Will that do?

To make an analogy, take cooking. I'm not a good cook, so if I wanted to make something like chicken with black bean sauce, I'll probably make several mistakes and have to complete several more attempts before I learn & figure out why the food didn't taste right. However, if a gourmet chef was cooking it, s/he can taste the sauce and quickly add the "corrective spices" to make it taste right on the first shot within seconds. The difference is in the experience.
Sigh. My question to you is do you need to be a computer expert (chef's are cooking experts right?) to build a HTPC? I don't think you do. There are plenty of things I don't know about computers, so I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert, but here I am typing this post on my HTPC so I must have gotten something right with this "unfinished box".

Vidabox said:
You say that you want to help people to make educated decisions and we really respect that. We want to do the same, but we are taking it from the average joe/jane's perspective.
The average joe/jane here or everywhere?

VidBox said:
I think we can all agree that you're vastly superior in knowledge & experience when it comes to system building
If my grandmother and all her demographic visited this site regularly, you might be on to something since those are the only people I'd consider myself vastly superior in system building knowledge too. Otherwise I'd disagree. I'm not a computer expert, I'm just resourceful, patient, willing to learn, and unwilling to spend more money than feel I have to. A better way to define my computer knowledge would be power user.

VidaBox said:
but please realize that your opinion of HTPCs being easy to build is very subjective and probably not true for most people.
I never said that it was easy. In fact, I said just the opposite.

hopjohn said:
Home built HTPCs are difficult to build no doubt...
VidaBox said:
Just because it boots up, it doesn't mean that it's finished. The majority of people really don't have the necessary skills to quickly troubleshoot the system, just as most people don't have gourmet cooking skills, know how to change their own oil, etc.
The problem as I see it is that you are here in this forum, on this website, where the article is located,where you and I are discussing it. It's my honest belief the majority of people here know how to change their own oil, and a good number of these same people could handle building a HTPC, and cooking chicken and beans if they wanted to. If this article was simply on your website in general population, I wouldn't try to make anyone think twice. Look around here for a while and I think you'll realize that people here are more technically inclined than "most people" and don't shy away from troubleshooting.

VidaBox said:
We don't want to disuade people from building their own systems, but we want them to be fully aware of the potential problems that they may face
If you walk on to a car lot and the guy tells you "Yea, those cars will potentially breakdown or just never run quite right, and we just want you to be aware of that. Not that we think there is anything wrong with buying one. Oh and by the way we have here a nice running car we think you'll like". Would you then buy the "potentially problematic" car? I can't see how you can say that your aren't disuading people, because if so then you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

VidaBox said:
Again, to reiterate, if you have the experience, then building an HTPC may be a walk in the park for you.
It MAY be a walk in the park for the experienced person, but more likely a small challenge for someone who does their homework before they buy and follows up any minor problems by asking a few questions in the right places.

VidaBox said:
However, for someone less experienced, seemingly minor problems may turn into major hurdles very quickly.
I guess you can just call me an idealist with an uncommon faith in the technical abilities of Audioholic forum readers. It probably doesn't hurt that I'm completely unimpeded by the bias of making an income via my opinions on the subject.
 
VidaBox

VidaBox

<a href="http://www.vidabox.com/" target="_blank">
Hi again hopjohn,

I think I see where our disagreement lies.

hopjohn said:
Never have I said an "average computer user" should attempt this. In my opinion if you post on these forums with any frequency, it can be reasonbably assumed that your technical knowledge goes beyond that of an "average computer user".
You're saying that because the article was linked to on the audioholics forums, it should be readily assumed that the intended audience has technical knowledge goes beyond that of an "average computer user".

hopjohn said:
The problem as I see it is that you are here in this forum, on this website, where the article is located,where you and I are discussing it....It's my honest belief the majority of people here know how to change their own oil, and a good number of these same people could handle building a HTPC, and cooking chicken and beans if they wanted to. If this article was simply on your website in general population, I wouldn't try to make anyone think twice. Look around here for a while and I think you'll realize that people here are more technically inclined than "most people" and don't shy away from troubleshooting.
Taking your point into consideration, I'm saying that the intended audience is the population at large, not specifically the forumers here. Since you're bringing the point up of where the article was posted, its home is actually on the main page, under the "Buying Guides" section. The forums are simply a way for people to provide feedback. There are over 1 million Audioholics readers, and if I remember correctly, there are only about 18,000 registered posters. That's a very, very small fraction of the total Audioholics audience. I'm sorry if you felt insulted or patronized in any way since it was linked on the forums - that was not our intention. The article is targeted towards the million-plus readers coming in from the main page, not the forum.

Again, I agree with you that you don't need to be a computer expert to build an HTPC, but just like you said above about being resourceful, one would need to spend quite a bit of time in researching everything so that s/he can build one successfully. For those who enjoy things like this, sure - by all means, give it a shot. The only question left is: "How much time are you willing to spend?" However, most people I know (e.g. the intended 1 million+ audience of Audioholics) would just consider this a major waste of time and would rather buy something outright. Like in your changing oil or my cooking example, none of this is impossible, but will simply take time. That's why Jiffy Lubes and gourmet restaurants are around - it's a convenient service for those who just want to get something done fast properly. Similarly, if this was a car forum or a cooking forum, it'd be silly of me to suggest that its members go to Jiffy's or not cook a fabulous dinner when they clearly enjoy doing it themselves.

hopjohn said:
If you walk on to a car lot and the guy tells you "Yea, those cars will potentially breakdown or just never run quite right, and we just want you to be aware of that. Not that we think there is anything wrong with buying one. Oh and by the way we have here a nice running car we think you'll like". Would you then buy the "potentially problematic" car? I can't see how you can say that your aren't disuading people, because if so then you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I don't think you're reading what I wrote correctly, and I also don't think your analogy is correct - a fair comparison would be to compare someone building his/her own car vs. buying one. Chilton's & other manuals are readily available for all cars, so why don't people build/assemble their own after buying the parts? The answer is the same - like HTPCs, you can surely build one your own that's just as good - but are you interested in it, and how much time do you want to spend?

At any rate, you are definitely entitled to your opinions, and I think we can both agree that our disagreement is based on what the "intended audience" is. To re-cap, I'm saying that the article's intended audience is the million-plus readers coming in from the main page, not the 18,000 or so on the forums. I'm sorry for any confusion the sticky link has caused, since you felt that the intended audience was the AH forumers, which was not our intention.

Based on the above, I think we can just agree to disagree. ;)

Sincerely,
Steven Cheung
VidaBox LLC
 
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