Did I waste my money on unnecessary wattage?

mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
My current living room setup is a 3.1 channem configuration consisting of three Defintive Technologies Mythos Nine wall speakers, an SVS SB1000 12" sub, and a Marantz SR5013 receiver. The speakers have an RMS power handling of 250W, and my receiver has an RMS rating of 100W per channel. I find myself turning up the receiver to -10dB while playing music and often close to 0dB. Even then, it left me wanting more volume. Therefore, I decided to purchase a Marantz MM7025 amp, which delivers 140W per channel. I was disappointed to find that there was no perceivable difference in loudness between powering the speakers with the receiver and powering them with the amp (understandable since only about a 1.5dB increase). So I figured I really needed to step things up and purchased an Emotiva XPA-3, which is rated at 275W per channel. However, again to my disappointment, the speakers still aren't much louder. Certainly not enough to warrant the $1250 price tag. I still have both amps, but am considering returning both because I can basically get the same volume out of my receiver. I'm wondering if the speakers just aren't sensitive enough and/or the drivers just can't physically give me the deep rich sound I want (each has dual 4.5" drivers with dual 4x8 passive radiators). What do you guys think? Have I reached the limits of my speakers? Should I return the amps and stick with my receiver only, or is it beneficial to have more wattage even though the perceived loudness isn't much different?

After connecting the XPA-3, I started looking through the SR5013 settings a little more closely and found I could adjus the speaker levels by up to 12dB, which made the speakers quite a bit louder (they were all set to 0dB). Does this mean I wasn't using all the available power or is it one of those things where it appears you are getting more power, but in reality it just decreases the main volume by the same amount? With all channels set to +12dB, it is pretty loud now, so I'm not sure I even need an amp. I believe when Marantz specs 100W, they really mean 100W off clean power, so turning the volume up to -10dB is probably fine. I want to say the speakers sound a little better quality with the Emotiva, but it could be a placebo effect. Sorry for the long post.
 
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warnerwh

Full Audioholic
Unless you had to turn up the volume all the way to it's max before you went into settings you were already using all of your power. Turning your settings up to +12 just changes where you are setting the volume to get the loudness you require.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I think you've just generally discovered the limits of your speakers, and/or the size space you're trying to fill with them to your desired spl at least. A few dB only goes so far in the big picture as far as increased power goes (if your speakers are actually capable of such....didn't see what they warn off at).
 
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shkumar4963

Audioholic
I think you've just generally discovered the limits of your speakers, and/or the size space you're trying to fill with them to your desired spl at least. A few dB only goes so far in the big picture as far as increased power goes (if your speakers are actually capable of such....didn't see what they warn off at).
Yep. To perceive double the sound level, you need 10 dB increase. And for that you need 10 times the power. That means 1000 watt amp if you 100 watts amp does not satisfy you. And your speakers are only capable of 250 watts. So can not work.

So a better answer will be to get speakers that are 10 dB more sensitive. And with higher capacity to take power.

Now the reason why OP hears more volume when he maximizes everything: Amplifiers are specified in such a way that they continue to operate within their their specified parameters. That means able to handle occasional peaks without distorting or changing their frequency curve. OP can get more volume if he is willing to give up on distortion and frequency linearity.

Not a wise choice in my opinion.

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Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
My current living room setup is a 3.1 channem configuration consisting of three Defintive Technologies Mythos Nine wall speakers, an SVS SB1000 12" sub, and a Marantz SR5013 receiver. The speakers have an RMS power handling of 250W, and my receiver has an RMS rating of 100W per channel. I find myself turning up the receiver to -10dB while playing music and often close to 0dB. Even then, it left me wanting more volume. Therefore, I decided to purchase a Marantz MM7025 amp, which delivers 140W per channel. I was disappointed to find that there was no perceivable difference in loudness between powering the speakers with the receiver and powering them with the amp (understandable since only about a 1.5dB increase). So I figured I really needed to step things up and purchased an Emotiva XPA-3, which is rated at 275W per channel. However, again to my disappointment, the speakers still aren't much louder. Certainly not enough to warrant the $1250 price tag. I still have both amps, but am considering returning both because I can basically get the same volume out of my receiver. I'm wondering if the speakers just aren't sensitive enough and/or the drivers just can't physically give me the deep rich sound I want (each has dual 4.5" drivers with dual 4x8 passive radiators). What do you guys think? Have I reached the limits of my speakers? Should I return the amps and stick with my receiver only, or is it beneficial to have more wattage even though the perceived loudness isn't much different?

After connecting the XPA-3, I started looking through the SR5013 settings a little more closely and found I could adjus the speaker levels by up to 12dB, which made the speakers quite a bit louder (they were all set to 0dB). Does this mean I wasn't using all the available power or is it one of those things where it appears you are getting more power, but in reality it just decreases the main volume by the same amount? With all channels set to +12dB, it is pretty loud now, so I'm not sure I even need an amp. I believe when Marantz specs 100W, they really mean 100W off clean power, so turning the volume up to -10dB is probably fine. I want to say the speakers sound a little better quality with the Emotiva, but it could be a placebo effect. Sorry for the long post.
100 x 2 into 8 Ohms of clean power is a lot! That will drive just about any speaker to ear bleeding volumes! Now adding a amp will take the load off of your AVR which is a good thing lots add amps for that reason alone.
 
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Leemix

Audioholic General
More watts just mean you can turn it up more while staying clean (if the speakers are able), -10dB should be -10dB from “reference” no matter which amp you use. Gain and not watts is what gives the volume increase so read up on that if you are curious.

In my experience there can be differences between amps but if the difference you hear is worth the expense is up to you. Actual difference or placebo doesnt really matter, both will give you a better experience.


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mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
I think I'll return the MM7025 and keep the Emotiva XPA-3. I like that it's expandable and has plenty of power for any future needs. I thought of getting a pair of floor speakers with dual 6.5" drivers in them, but then I'd be left with the wall speakers directly above. Maybe I could connect them as FL/FR surrounds, or would that not work being directly above the left/right speakers (slightly inward of them actually). If I didn't mention, the Mythos Nine are hanging on the wall over the fireplace surrounding the TV. Removing them altogether is not in the cards.
 
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Leemix

Audioholic General
If they are quite high up they might work as atmos height front L/R speakers if you get something not on-wall. Hard to say. External amps might be a bit overkill for those on-walls though, the biggest limitation is very probably the speakers and not your AVR. But think about how the room is a bit, its very important for the sound.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My current living room setup is a 3.1 channem configuration consisting of three Defintive Technologies Mythos Nine wall speakers, an SVS SB1000 12" sub, and a Marantz SR5013 receiver.
This is a great post as it is informative and you pretty much answered your own question except the main part about whether you have power "not used" or "wasted". That is your sitting distance from the speakers and when you said you wanted it "louder", what would it be in "SPL". For example:

1583331852357.png


Your receiver is capable of 100 W, 2 channel driven into 8 ohms, at 0.08% THD+N (likely performed a little better on the bench).

So if you sit 9 ft from the Mythos 9 on-walls, you should get about 105 dB peak, that is, "reference level"; and that would be about as loud as what you would hear in a movie cinema.

If you had run auto-setup, the receiver would have been calibrated to output 85 dB average, 105 dB peak with volume set to about 0, assuming your system is capable of doing it.

If you sit further than 9 ft, you will not get reference level, how much less depends a lot on your room acoustic/speaker placements but you can get a good idea using the online calculator shown above.

The speakers have an RMS power handling of 250W, and my receiver has an RMS rating of 100W per channel.
There is no such thing as RMS power, I know I cannot do anything about the common misuse of this technical term but I'd like to do my part and try anyway whenever I see opportunities. Typically speaking, the power handling specs stated as say, 20-200 W, the higher number would likely represent what they considered safe at that level during the normal/usual/typical kind of peaks in the media contents, but not the so called "RMS" (what people called, when the correct term is "average").

The rest of your long post is very interesting to read, because for just about every question you raised, you provided the correct answer yourself, as confirmed by others who responded..:D

I hope my "long" post help clarified things just a little more..
 
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Leemix

Audioholic General
Reread the original post and it does seem like your speakers cant deliver what you are after. Tiny woofers and while the passive radiators arent very small they are passive and can only work with whats given to them by the small woofers.

How do you have it set up?
Speakers set to small i guess but with what crossover?


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Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
I think I'll return the MM7025 and keep the Emotiva XPA-3. I like that it's expandable and has plenty of power for any future needs. I thought of getting a pair of floor speakers with dual 6.5" drivers in them, but then I'd be left with the wall speakers directly above. Maybe I could connect them as FL/FR surrounds, or would that not work being directly above the left/right speakers (slightly inward of them actually). If I didn't mention, the Mythos Nine are hanging on the wall over the fireplace surrounding the TV. Removing them altogether is not in the cards.
Rethink! I’d send the EMO back, don’t know if you know but Emotiva has Refused to service their amps after they go Out of Warranty. Don’t believe me ask Gene our leader has one of Emotiva’s amps they refused to service it after it went out of warranty.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
To enjoy that amp the issue isn't the amp it's your speakers. Amps just transparently pass the sound on and do it as others said cleanly at higher levels (if it's a good one)

This is a big reason I dislike a lot of in wall speakers unless you really want to spend some major money

They lack dynamics and depending on how they are set up they usually are not correct they have issues with soundstage and imaging

Your correct in your assessment that if you want better sound you are going to need better speakers they are the weak link in your chain

I always run power amps but not to increase sound quality per say or loudness.

I usually do it to not stress my avr with fans and power amps an avr will run cooler and last a very long time

If I do decide to push my speakers I can do so with more power CLEANLY. But if I want better sound from what I have at the moment the amp won't affect that

Buying better speakers will
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Reread the original post and it does seem like your speakers cant deliver what you are after. Tiny woofers and while the passive radiators arent very small they are passive and can only work with whats given to them by the small woofers.

How do you have it set up?
Speakers set to small i guess but with what crossover?


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Another thing I noticed was, he said "The speakers have an RMS power handling of 250W "..

I checked the DefTech website and all I could find was:

AUDIO QUALITY
  • Total Frequency Response38 Hz → 30 Hz
  • Nominal Impedance8 ohms
  • Max Sensitivity (1 watt @ 1 meter)91 dB
CROSSOVER
  • A/V Receiver Crossover SettingsSmall (80 Hz)
Crutchfield adverstized "handles up to 250 watts ", no idea where they got it from and the wording "handles up to..." is really wishy washy at best..
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Ouch. You're supposed to come here and ask before you drop thousands on amplification! Speakers! Speakers, speakers, speakers. It's almost never amplification.

That said, I appreciate this post because you discovered on your own the advice we give here on a daily basis. A lot of folks would swear they can hear a profound difference. Kudos for you and being able to remain objective with all that placebo being thrown your way.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
Rethink! I’d send the EMO back, don’t know if you know but Emotiva has Refused to service their amps after they go Out of Warranty. Don’t believe me ask Gene our leader has one of Emotiva’s amps they refused to service it after it went out of warranty.
Well, it has a five year warranty, and with it being modular, I'm guessing replacing one of the channels is pretty simple. I'm not really worried about that.

Buying better speakers will
By better, I'm assuming you mean speakers with larger drivers? These suckers have an MSRP of $799 each (I paid $350 each for refurbished).

How do you have it set up?
Speakers set to small i guess but with what crossover?
Correct, speakers set to small and xover of 60Hz.

Crutchfield adverstized "handles up to 250 watts ", no idea where they got it from and the wording "handles up to..." is really wishy washy at best..
Oh, okay. That must have been where I saw the 250W spec. I was thinking the DefTech site said that, but now I see it doesn't. Oh well. At least I have the available power if/when I need it.

Let me clarify that they are plenty loud enough and sound great with movies and games, which is likely what the speakers were intended for. It's playing music that leaves me wanting more. Don't get me wrong, they also sound great with music, but it leaves me wanting more, which I just don't think dual 4.5" drivers can give me. Floor speakers aren't a great option due to space constraints and asthetics, so maybe I should look into getting some larger on-wall speakers.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Another thing I noticed was, he said "The speakers have an RMS power handling of 250W "..

I checked the DefTech website and all I could find was:

AUDIO QUALITY
  • Total Frequency Response38 Hz → 30 Hz
  • Nominal Impedance8 ohms
  • Max Sensitivity (1 watt @ 1 meter)91 dB
CROSSOVER
  • A/V Receiver Crossover SettingsSmall (80 Hz)
Crutchfield adverstized "handles up to 250 watts ", no idea where they got it from and the wording "handles up to..." is really wishy washy at best..
Not to mention the wattage ratings tend to be more of a melting point than any useful operating range.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, it has a five year warranty, and with it being modular, I'm guessing replacing one of the channels is pretty simple. I'm not really worried about that.
Warranty aside, you got no improvement adding that amp. I'd return it and start shopping speakers.
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Ouch. You're supposed to come here and ask before you drop thousands on amplification! Speakers! Speakers, speakers, speakers. It's almost never amplification.

That said, I appreciate this post because you discovered on your own the advice we give here on a daily basis. A lot of folks would swear they can hear a profound difference. Kudos for you and being able to remain objective with all that placebo being thrown your way.
Ya the guys here have talked me off the cliff several times as far as amps. I’ve even had Monolith 5 in my shopping cart but didn’t pull the trigger. LOL :)
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
I already made irreversible modifications to my cabinet to accommodate the XPA-3, so I think I'll be keeping it. Plus, I like having the extra power should I need it in a future setup. That being said, I'd appreciate some recommendations on some "better" wall speakers (meaning larger drivers and perhaps higher sensitivity).
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
Would there be a way to configure my SR5013 to use the Mythos Nine speakers for movies and games and switch to a separate pair of L/R speakers for music if I did decide to get some floor speakers? I basically don't want to remove wires and patch holes on my wall and essentially undo an install I just completed a couple months ago. I would just live with what I have before I did that. So, my options are retain what I have, replace the Mythos with better on-wall speakers, or add additional floor speakers for music listening (while retaining the on-wall speakers).
 
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