Denon/Yamaha Comparison

H

happy540i

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Hello everybody! I have been posting that I would be buying a receiver soon to upgrade my existing processor. Well, guess what? Still have'nt decided. I am still waiting on the audioholics review of the Z9.
Over the weekend, I went to Goodguys in Los Angeles and tested the 5803 and Z9 side by side. The salesman who help me had patience because I was there for hours. With all parameters being equal, speakers, room and receiver settings, the Yamaha sounds brighter. The Yamaha sounded better in 2 channel mode. In direct mode the Denon sounded better. In DSP mode they sounded almost the same. After all this playing around, I still can't make up my mind.
Can somebody please tell me If Yamaha really sounds brighter compared to Denon. And why did the Denon sounded better in pure direct mode?
Thanks.</font>
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>In Pure Direct Mode the Denon shuts off all the DSP and other circuitry for less noise and cleaner sound. &nbsp;I was at the store ogling the Denon today, too. &nbsp;Pretty sweet receiver.

Pretty crappy remote though.</font>
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>The Yamaha should have a pure direct mode as well (my Yamaha is always in direct mode). If your ears(not the salesman) are telling you it sounds brighter,then it must sound brighter. I don't have your ears so I can't tell you. Not trying to be rude, but it is,after all, going to be YOUR receiver,so pick the one YOU want. I doubt you'll be disappointed with either one.</font>
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>Zipper's right, but if it was me, Denons ALPHA24 puts them over the top.</font>
 
H

happy540i

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Thank you all. This is what happen to me before. I went to a store thinking of buying a Denon 5600 and came out with a Yamaha DSP-A1. I think I have to play with these two receivers more before I buy one. It is an expensive toy and I want to make the right choice.
Does anybody know where I could find an authorized dealer for any of this two that would sell it at a discount?
Thanks again.</font>
 
S

Simplemind

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>Happy,

You really cant go wrong with either receiver! Both are flagships, if you continue to wait, they will have a new product out that you will consider and then you will be right back to square one. I realize that its a large investment, but welcome to the wonderfull world of electronics!!

my $.02 cents.
</font>
 
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R

Ross

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>I got a chance to compare the 2400 and 3805 side by side this past weekend. &nbsp;The alpha24 stuff didn't blow any smoke up my skirt, but it still is a solid unit. &nbsp;In the end, I still found the 2400 to (personally) have more richness and detail over any of the denon's listening modes. &nbsp;In the end, why would I pay more for something that doesn't offer any more??? &nbsp;I also found the remote to be a little too gimicky for my tastes. &nbsp;

I didn't get to compare the Z9 to anything else yet, but will within a weeks time when it comes in. &nbsp;The denon is nice, but it doesn't bring anything new or innovative enough to the table compared to its prior versions. &nbsp;Just more of the same thing. &nbsp;But, that can be a good thing also, because it is a solid unit.

Have you considered seperates? &nbsp;

best,</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>IF the funds are available, buy seperates and forget about Denon &amp; Yamaha! Otherwise, go with the one you feel most comfortable with!
</font>
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>With respects to Ross, to not see the new features the '05 adds over previous models is to not have been paying attention. &nbsp;The auto room EQ is a major advance over previous Denon models (although Yammy did it first).

Ross, how did you compare the two units? &nbsp;I hope it wasn't at Circuit City or Ultimate Electronics where you got a 5 minute demo with whatever speakers you picked on the speaker wall. &nbsp;If that was the extent of the &quot;comparison&quot; I'm not surprised you didn't appreciate ALPHA24.

But even if you got a good comparison and didn't dig A24, I still urge anyone shopping for a receiver to check it out. &nbsp;One major advance the 05 makes over previous models is adding A24 to all the channels, not just the front ones. &nbsp;JMOHO, but pretty much all receiver soundfields are junk (including Yamahas), but I do like PLII. &nbsp;Being able to listen to PLII combined with A24 should be pretty impressive.

I agree on the cheesiness of the remote, though. &nbsp;I'm stunned that Denon thinks that's gonna cut it. &nbsp;

Depending on ones budget, separates are an option. &nbsp;But you sure won't be able to buy a prepro/amp combo for $1100 that'll do what a good full featured receiver can do. &nbsp;Actually, you can't buy any prepro/amp combo new at that price. &nbsp;Okay, maybe an Outlaw with the Carver amp I linked from Onecall, but that's a radical clearance.</font>
 
R

Ross

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Rob,
Ufortunately I didn't get to tinker with the new 3805 for even 5 min...it was only 2 1/2...


Just kidding!

Since when did circuit city sell any denon products?

Back on topic&gt;&gt;&gt; &nbsp;I apologize for being unclear in my previous post. &nbsp;I was not referring to the 3805 in the second paragraph, I was referring to the 5800--2--3 series. &nbsp;I am fully aware of the differences between the 3803 and the new 3805, sorry for the confusion. &nbsp;

Sorry, but I couldn't make any discernable calls on the &quot;improvment&quot; of the sound with alpha24 engaged. &nbsp;This seems to be one of those features you wouldn't even notice if it was turned off or on. &nbsp;I guess I just forgot to bring along my Golden Ear Decoders (GED's) to pick up on the alpha24's merits! &nbsp;If it works for you, then I truly am happy for you! &nbsp;It just didn't ruffle my feathers. &nbsp;Just another speedbump in the signal path... &nbsp;

&quot;Denon's renowned 24-bit ALPHA processing technology that reproduces digital signals in a waveform with the smoothness of analog signals&quot;

Could someone please decifer this for me?

cough...cough...marketing hype...cough...

</font>
 
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R

Ross

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>&quot;I hope it wasn't at Circuit City or Ultimate Electronics where you got a 5 minute demo with whatever speakers you picked on the speaker wall. &nbsp;If that was the extent of the &quot;comparison&quot; I'm not surprised you didn't appreciate ALPHA24.&quot;

If I had been, I definitely would have auditioned them on the acoustimass 15 or wave radio &nbsp;
&nbsp;! &nbsp;

</font>
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>Yeah, the marketing guys love to say stuff like that!
&nbsp; But the engineers had their thinking caps on. &nbsp;ALPHA24 is basically upsampling with interpolation. &nbsp;I'm not an engineer (maybe one of the AH staff can do better than me, here) but they basically add dither and perform calculations on the data to extrapolate 24 bits. &nbsp;I don't understand the math involved, but while they don't really make *much* new information, this allows more accurate processing of the Least Significant Bit which increased perceived low level detail retreival (in a linear PCM system, the signal is most accurately represented at high levels, most problems occur with low level signals represented by less bits).

True upsampling doesn't attempt to add any information, while interpolation actually speculates upon/extrapolates from what is there what should/could be there. &nbsp;That might sound sorta dicey but it's a highly effective technique. &nbsp;Perpetual Technology is one well known proponent of this technique that's legendary for the performance of their digital engine.

Not long ago the technology used by Denon in their ALPHA24 was unattainable for any sane amount of money.

But, as with all things audio, opinions vary. &nbsp;Many swear by upsampling but some don't like it. &nbsp;There's a growing camp of audiophools that don't even like the oversampling that most digital systems use; non-oversampling DACS like the Scott Nixon TubeDAC &amp; Chris Own's dACK! have legions of fans.

As with all things, listen for yourself and make up your own mind. &nbsp;I like Denon &amp; ALPHA24, but it's not like they're gonna give me an commission for talking anyone into buying one!


Sorry if I misunderstood you Ross, and I wasn't trying to be a ####! &nbsp;I thought you meant the 03 &amp; 05 weren't different: &nbsp;my bad. &nbsp;And I've never been to a Circuit City- they don't have 'em in my part of the country and I don't know what they sell.

I still wonder, though, under what circumstances you made the comparison. &nbsp;Although I agree B&amp;M stores are nice (return policy, warrenty &amp; the chance to evaluate build quality, for what it's worth), a brief audition in a retail environement is a pretty poor way to accertain the merits of a component. &nbsp;Beats guessing, I suppose!


As I've said, it's no skin off my nose whether someone buys one brand or another. &nbsp;I'm only suggesting if you get the chance to try it under good conditions (hopefully/ideally in your own system with music of your own choosing) it's worth trying out for yourself.</font>
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>Man, that's lame! &nbsp;You can't even say &quot;####&quot;? &nbsp;


Bet you can't say ####, piss, #### or dang, either!
</font>
 
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R

Ross

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>LMAO!

I wasn't trying to be an ###hole, a #######, or a ########## either &nbsp;
!

I do understand the logic and reasoning behind such interpolation, I just don't know if it makes any significant difference, especially at this price point. &nbsp;That significance should be evaluated on a case by case basis for perspective buyers. &nbsp;Even if a listener perceives only a slight improvement with this type of technology engaged, then their listening experience will be better, no matter what anyone else says. &nbsp;

If I was running some set of elite esoteric speakers, all serpent-branded cables, and astronomically priced seperates, then I might give this sort of technology a second glance. &nbsp;I just don't see that day coming any time soon.

I have gotten samples of this alpha24 stuff since its inception, on a number of occassions. &nbsp;This has been in and out of the store environment. &nbsp;And now with my latest sampling of the 3805 in a store environment, my opinion hasn't changed. &nbsp;


</font>
 
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