Denon x4800h vs Marantz Cinema 50

[PENG]

I think that is why I gave aesthetics more weight in my decision making process when I decided to build a modest 2-channel setup. It is a focal point of the room. That being said it makes sense that the 40n 30 have the upgraded faceplate to help justify some of the cost . The 40n weights more than the x4800h or the Cinema 50. I also love the look of the Anthem AMV70, but that is in my rack on a sidewall, so not prominently displayed.

According to the Marantz Website, the C50 and above in their new receiver line have metal faceplates. Only the C60 & C70 have the polycarbonate faceplate. I should have clarified my statement when I commented on the sides being the same, I meant the plastic (polycarbonate) that the OP commented on.

Base on aesthetics, imo, Europeans and Asians should buy Marantz the C40, or 50 because the 3800 and 4800 there are only $200 to $300 less. In North America the price gap is $800 to $1000, the Denons should obviously be the better choice unless one loves the M's look to death, and hates the D's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

in the end, It's gonna be the X4800H for me for the reasons stated in my post.

And that’s the salient point.

We all have different criteria and we rank them in different orders - aesthetic, brand name, pride of ownership, where they’re made (Japan vs Vietnam vs China, etc.), features, customer support, warranty, etc.

I think we all have heard many times for many years how someone can prefer the sound quality of one AVR over another whether it’s one brand vs another brand or even within the same brand.

Someone told me that their brand new $3500 Marantz didn’t as good as their 10 year old $1500 Marantz. Someone told me their $1K 10 YR old Yamaha sounded better than their brand new $2K Yamaha. It goes on and on.

We all have different experiences. Every AVR or AVP that I’ve owned have sound absolutely fantastic after I was done setting it up.

But we all have different experiences.

 

[Thrill Killer]

And that’s the salient point.

We all have different criteria and we rank them in different orders - aesthetic, brand name, pride of ownership, where they’re made (Japan vs Vietnam vs China, etc.), features, customer support, warranty, etc.

I think we all have heard many times for many years how someone can prefer the sound quality of one AVR over another whether it’s one brand vs another brand or even within the same brand.

Someone told me that their brand new $3500 Marantz didn’t as good as their 10 year old $1500 Marantz. Someone told me their $1K 10 YR old Yamaha sounded better than their brand new $2K Yamaha. It goes on and on.

We all have different experiences. Every AVR or AVP that I’ve owned have sound absolutely fantastic after I was done setting it up.

But we all have different experiences.

Well said!

 

[PENG]

Well said!

Then why do you believe what you read in those two places that one actually sounded superior to the other, how many said so and/or did some say the other sounded superior, or all said the same?

Don't get me wrong I am just curious to know how we all approach such subjective impressions of people. In my experience, if you look at a large enough sample, such as say Amazon reviews on a popular product, you bound to find all sorts of people offering all sorts of reviews. Regardless, I would definitely go with the 4800 too.

Now if we look only on the objective side of things such as reliability track records, features, and specifications, it is very possible to make some sense of what people said in different places, and may be trust the majority views more. On the subjective side (perception of how each sound to them), such as, an AVR, you will likely find a distributed % that would range from excellent, very good, good, average, to even poor so then would you still analyze the results mathematically?

From the places I read (more than 2), I remember seeing some said the 3800 sounded better than the 3700 while others said the opposite, for example, the prolific reviewer Mr. A Robinson (okay, I would only watch his video reviews for entertainment if there are nothing else to watch), so how would you know who to trust, that will perceive the same that you would, in your own set up in your own room? Again, just curious..

By the way, also on the objective side of the equation, we have the following known facts:

- Both share the same preamp/dac signal path block diagrams as show in the Masimo video and other Denon website information.

- The power amp parts and circuitry between the 3600, 3700, 4400, 4500, 4700 are identical so it would almost a certainty (but not 100%) that it would be the same case with the 3800 vs 4800.

- The power supply of the 4800 is slightly larger.

- The layout of the two are different, mainly on the power amp section, in that the 4800 now has adopted the monolithic layout that was previous found on the top two models only.

- Both use the same Griffin lite XP DSP, same quantity too.

So on the objective side, in all likelihood, any audible difference would be subtle and in terms of noise only, not distortion, at least not significant enough to result in audible differences. Frequency response will be identical or near identical.

 

[Cappie]

Then why do you believe what you read in those two places that one actually sounded superior to the other, how many said so and/or did some say the other sounded superior, or all said the same?

Don't get me wrong I am just curious to know how we all approach such subjective impressions of people. In my experience, if you look at a large enough sample, such as say Amazon reviews on a popular product, you bound to find all sorts of people offering all sorts of reviews. Regardless, I would definitely go with the 4800 too.

Now if we look only on the objective side of things such as reliability track records, features, and specifications, it is very possible to make some sense of what people said in different places, and may be trust the majority views more. On the subjective side (perception of how each sound to them), such as, an AVR, you will likely find a distributed % that would range from excellent, very good, good, average, to even poor so then would you still analyze the results mathematically?

From the places I read (more than 2), I remember seeing some said the 3800 sounded better than the 3700 while others said the opposite, for example, the prolific reviewer Mr. A Robinson (okay, I would only watch his video reviews for entertainment if there are nothing else to watch), so how would you know who to trust, that will perceive the same that you would, in your own set up in your own room? Again, just curious..

By the way, also on the objective side of the equation, we have the following known facts:

- Both share the same preamp/dac signal path block diagrams as show in the Masimo video and other Denon website information.

- The power amp parts and circuitry between the 3600, 3700, 4400, 4500, 4700 are identical so it would almost a certainty (but not 100%) that it would be the same case with the 3800 vs 4800.

- The power supply of the 4800 is slightly larger.

- The layout of the two are different, mainly on the power amp section, in that the 4800 now has adopted the monolithic layout that was previous found on the top two models only.

- Both use the same Griffin lite XP DSP, same quantity too.

So on the objective side, in all likelihood, any audible difference would be subtle and in terms of noise only, not distortion, at least not significant enough to result in audible differences. Frequency response will be identical or near identical.

Good perspective. I would add that the X4800h/Marantz Cinema 40 both have dedicated boards for each amp channel whereas the 3800/Cinema 50 use 2 separate split 5-channel and a 4-channel boards. What does that equate to in sound or quality...dunno.
But to your point, we all like to read everything and everything that's out there. It's fun and educational. Given that there just isn't much real data to go off of regarding the true performance of the X4800h, and even then it's so subjective to what the individual likes to their ears, I have found this process leading me to pick the X4800h. Nothing against the Marantz lovers out there, power to you and your ears. But, my tastes and everyone's comments/perspective have lead me to this decision. Great forum great members from my experience. I hope to be able to contribute something constructive to the forum in the future. Thanks everyone!!

 

[PENG]

Good perspective. I would add that the X4800h/Marantz Cinema 40 both have dedicated boards for each amp channel whereas the 3800/Cinema 50 use 2 separate split 5-channel and a 4-channel boards. What does that equate to in sound or quality...dunno.

Based on the measurements of the AVR-X8500H and the AVR-X3600H (priced at just 1/4), I would have to say the monolithic amp modules/layouts vs the lower model's does not equate to better or worse sound quality. As I said many times before, I will still go for the 4800 (and higher models) because I value build quality, and designs that aim for lower noise and interference, whether that will translate into better sound quality or not.

But to your point, we all like to read everything and everything that's out there. It's fun and educational. Given that there just isn't much real data to go off of regarding the true performance of the X4800h, and even then it's so subjective to what the individual likes to their ears, I have found this process leading me to pick the X4800h.

ASR may be releasing the review on the 4800 this week (based on info from the person who sent in the unit), so you will be getting the results any day now. I am just trying to lower your expectation by predicting that the results will be very similar to that of the 3800 that you have already seen. So if that comes true, or even if it does marginally worse, you can pull the trigger on the 4800 for reasons we have both cited.

Nothing against the Marantz lovers out there, power to you and your ears. But, my tastes and everyone's comments/perspective have lead me to this decision. Great forum great members from my experience. I hope to be able to contribute something constructive to the forum in the future. Thanks everyone!!

I fully agree on this, and I have owned Marantz AVPs, power amps, and one preamp, still own 3 pieces of them so am still a Marantz owner/lover. Suffice to say my "taste" is about their style and build quality, not sound quality as to me, both Marantz and Denon devices have little (if any) taste to their sound quality, they are both neutral, as evidence in their spec and measurements on their gear over the years.

 

[PENG]

@Cappie , fyi, you may have to wait a little longer as Amir appears to be in the process of conferring with Denon, before publishing the results:

Denon AVR-X4800H released for Sale | Page 3 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[Cappie]

@Cappie , fyi, you may have to wait a little longer as Amir appears to be in the process of conferring with Denon, before publishing the results:

Denon AVR-X4800H released for Sale | Page 3 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Yes. I am following this closely. To be clear, I do not expect there to be any night and day differences between the two. To the point of many, there may well be not any audible sonic difference that the average person's ears can disertain. But what does seem to be evident is an obvious notch or two up in build quality and certain components. For me, this is important as I plan on hanging on to this unit for many years. If the unit runs cooler and less worked, that means a lot to me. While Denon is the clear winner for the ugliest remote of the year award, the 4800 does have an upgraded remote over the 3800. At this price point for the 4800, c'mon Denon, add blacklighting and add a little more pizzazz to your remotes astectics. F'ugly for sure!

I am doing my best to stay objective. Based on everything I have taken in, along with the great perspective from everyone on this forum, I have already decided on Denon over Marantz. I am happy with the looks of the 4800 and with no offense to Marantz fans, the only other difference other than looks and a significant higher price for essentially the exact same unit is Marketing Hype. There is nothing wrong with going with Marantz if you like the looks, prestige and you have the money, but beyond that, there is little reason to not pick the Denon, especially if you primarily using it for Home Theater. It is worth noting the Marantz is calling this lineup thier "Cinema Series", so clearly they are Marketing these units towards home theater over two channel music listening. Another consideration to lean towards Denon and save yourself a chunk of change.

These are just my thoughts, don't hate. I am sure that there are Marantz enthusiasts who who have their opinions on why they prefer Marantz.

Question: I am adding 2 4ohm transducers to the 4th sub output. This is what the manual says you need to do. I will run these in a series to get 8ohms. My plan is to use on one of my open channels on one of my Emotiva 5 channel amps. This would provide 200watts output. The transducers are 50watts each with a peak of 75watts. My intention is to simply add a balanced tactile effect to my 2 seat theater furniture. I will have two single subs up front and a JTR Captivator 2 in the back which already digs so deep that it vibrates the furniture, walls, etc. during sub sonic passes. I assume that once I dial the subs all in and blend in the transducers, I will add a tactile effect that hopefully adds an additional dimension to the low end of the experience without being over the top. Does this make sense and seem correctly thought out? All comments are welcome and appreciated.

Please keep this going as I think that this may be the most informative post out there to date regarding gaining knowledge and perspective on the X4800h. I have said it many times before, but thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and experience.
I will look forward to the test results to come out, but unless something really negative or concerning is discovered regarding the 4800, my decision is pretty much made up.
I look forward to your comments.

 

[PENG]

Question: I am adding 2 4ohm transducers to the 4th sub output. This is what the manual says you need to do. I will run these in a series to get 8ohms. My plan is to use on one of my open channels on one of my Emotiva 5 channel amps. This would provide 200watts output. The transducers are 50watts each with a peak of 75watts. My intention is to simply add a balanced tactile effect to my 2 seat theater furniture. I will have two single subs up front and a JTR Captivator 2 in the back which already digs so deep that it vibrates the furniture, walls, etc. during sub sonic passes. I assume that once I dial the subs all in and blend in the transducers, I will add a tactile effect that hopefully adds an additional dimension to the low end of the experience without being over the top. Does this make sense and seem correctly thought out? All comments are welcome and appreciated.

I assume your transducers are passive, nominal 4 ohms, so I would say wiring them in series would be good because the Emo amps are not rated for 2 ohm loads, and if you only have one channel on the Emo amp to use then you really have no choice.

If you are already getting the vibration you need from your 4 real subs, why bother with the tactile ones?

 

[Cappie]

I assume your transducers are passive, nominal 4 ohms, so I would say wiring them in series would be good because the Emo amps are not rated for 2 ohm loads, and if you only have one channel on the Emo amp to use then you really have no choice.

If you are already getting the vibration you need from your 4 real subs, why bother with the tactile ones?

Peng. Always appreciate your perspective. I will only be using 3 subs. 2 singles up front and the JTR Captivator 2 with dual woofers in the back middle. The JTR really digs down deep and that is where it really shines. I am just wanting to add a little more tactile vibration in the 20 - 60hz range. The JTR really kicks in the pressure and response at 30 and below. It effortlessly digs down to 10hz. From a vibration standpoint, I'm hoping that I will be able to find a nice accurate blend of tactile feel all the way through the low end range. Don't get me wrong, my subs rock as it is. Just trying to add to the movie experience.

Thanks for your comment .

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes. I am following this closely. To be clear, I do not expect there to be any night and day differences between the two. To the point of many, there may well be not any audible sonic difference that the average person's ears can disertain. But what does seem to be evident is an obvious notch or two up in build quality and certain components. For me, this is important as I plan on hanging on to this unit for many years. If the unit runs cooler and less worked, that means a lot to me. While Denon is the clear winner for the ugliest remote of the year award, the 4800 does have an upgraded remote over the 3800. At this price point for the 4800, c'mon Denon, add blacklighting and add a little more pizzazz to your remotes astectics. F'ugly for sure!

I am doing my best to stay objective. Based on everything I have taken in, along with the great perspective from everyone on this forum, I have already decided on Denon over Marantz. I am happy with the looks of the 4800 and with no offense to Marantz fans, the only other difference other than looks and a significant higher price for essentially the exact same unit is Marketing Hype. There is nothing wrong with going with Marantz if you like the looks, prestige and you have the money, but beyond that, there is little reason to not pick the Denon, especially if you primarily using it for Home Theater. It is worth noting the Marantz is calling this lineup thier "Cinema Series", so clearly they are Marketing these units towards home theater over two channel music listening. Another consideration to lean towards Denon and save yourself a chunk of change.

These are just my thoughts, don't hate. I am sure that there are Marantz enthusiasts who who have their opinions on why they prefer Marantz.

Question: I am adding 2 4ohm transducers to the 4th sub output. This is what the manual says you need to do. I will run these in a series to get 8ohms. My plan is to use on one of my open channels on one of my Emotiva 5 channel amps. This would provide 200watts output. The transducers are 50watts each with a peak of 75watts. My intention is to simply add a balanced tactile effect to my 2 seat theater furniture. I will have two single subs up front and a JTR Captivator 2 in the back which already digs so deep that it vibrates the furniture, walls, etc. during sub sonic passes. I assume that once I dial the subs all in and blend in the transducers, I will add a tactile effect that hopefully adds an additional dimension to the low end of the experience without being over the top. Does this make sense and seem correctly thought out? All comments are welcome and appreciated.

Please keep this going as I think that this may be the most informative post out there to date regarding gaining knowledge and perspective on the X4800h. I have said it many times before, but thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and experience.
I will look forward to the test results to come out, but unless something really negative or concerning is discovered regarding the 4800, my decision is pretty much made up.
I look forward to your comments.

I wouldn't mind a Marantz, even with the port hole thing, if the price were right. So far Denon has been the better value IMO. I had a Marantz back in the 70s, and it wasn't as special as many these days make them out to be either.

 

[PENG]

I wouldn't mind a Marantz, even with the port hole thing, if the price were right. So far Denon has been the better value IMO. I had a Marantz back in the 70s, and it wasn't as special as many these days make them out to be either.

Back then, in theory it may be believable that Marantz would have a different "sound" than Denon's because they have their own circuity, and different parts used for the DAC, volume IC, OPAs and DSP.

On the other hand, I still have the more than 45 years old 2 Ch separates, and they have vanishing level of THD+N and flat FR in the audible range, and sound the same as my Denon AVRs and other 2 Ch separates.

I wish we AH or ASR members can still get together one day and do some DBTs, in Toronto though lol..

 

[lovinthehd]

Back then, in theory it may be believable that Marantz would have a different "sound" than Denon's because they have their own circuity, and different parts used for the DAC, volume IC, OPAs and DSP.

On the other hand, I still have the more than 45 years old 2 Ch separates, and they have vanishing level of THD+N and flat FR in the audible range, and sound the same as my Denon AVRs and other 2 Ch separates.

I wish we AH or ASR members can still get together one day and do some DBTs, in Toronto though lol..

Back then there were no dacs That was more like 50 years ago now. The sound itself wasn't particularly different, but it did have some crosstalk with fm to other sources....

 

[Cappie]

I read a review from a Polish site that stated that the X4800h had 2 built in cooling fans. Can anyone confirm? I have a cooling fan system from when I had everything in my rack. But now it will be in my console and the fans are noticeable when they kick on. That said, my Integra 80.3 has also runs quite hot so the cooling system runs pretty often right now. I am hopeful that if the X4800h has built in fans that they are much quieter and not noticeable under normal listening conditions.

I installed my atmos ceiling speakers yesterday. I still have quite a bit of ceiling drywall repair to do, plus skim coating, priming and painting from removing 3 old fluorescent box light fixtures that were installed to withstand a 9.2 earthquake or an EF5 tornado. They must have found a sale on liquid nails and chaulk. But the light is visible at the end of the tunnel. Two more weeks hopefully.

I am looking at purchasing through Audio Advice because of their great after sale support. Anyone with any feedback or comments on another retailer to consider making my purchase from?

Thanks all.

 

[PENG]

I read a review from a Polish site that stated that the X4800h had 2 built in cooling fans. Can anyone confirm? I have a cooling fan system from when I had everything in my rack. But now it will be in my console and the fans are noticeable when they kick on. That said, my Integra 80.3 has also runs quite hot so the cooling system runs pretty often right now. I am hopeful that if the X4800h has built in fans that they are much quieter and not noticeable under normal listening conditions.

I installed my atmos ceiling speakers yesterday. I still have quite a bit of ceiling drywall repair to do, plus skim coating, priming and painting from removing 3 old fluorescent box light fixtures that were installed to withstand a 9.2 earthquake or an EF5 tornado. They must have found a sale on liquid nails and chaulk. But the light is visible at the end of the tunnel. Two more weeks hopefully.

I am looking at purchasing through Audio Advice because of their great after sale support. Anyone with any feedback or comments on another retailer to consider making my purchase from?

Thanks all.

In my experience, those build in fans never turned on so I suspect the set points are set quite high. They are likely intended to minimize warranty claims. That's why I used external fans, for longevity reason.

Unless you are very inexperienced on the use of modern avrs, dealer supports cannot justify higher price. I think most experienced users here on Audioholics probably would go with an authorized dealer that offers the best price.

You can ask @AcuDefTechGuy for his opinion too. He is a dealer and has owned many Denon products in the past, and may be able to offer you good price too.

 

[rbdan]

The other thing to remember is that the only real advantage of the Marantz is HDAM which only works for the analog inputs.

So if you live completely in the HDMI digital world there would be no advantage to the Marantz with HDAM.

Side note... I have had my x4800h for a few weeks it sounds awesome in my theater.

 

[PENG]

The other thing to remember is that the only real advantage of the Marantz is HDAM which only works for the analog inputs.

So if you live completely in the HDMI digital world there would be no advantage to the Marantz with HDAM.

Side note... I have had my x4800h for a few weeks it sounds awesome in my theater.

HDAM works regardless of anlaog or digital inputs. They are an additional buffer at the end (or almost the end) of the preamp/dac path so even if ypu use analog inputs and direct mode to bypass the adc/dac/dsp, the signal still must go through those modules. They can't improve the signal even if they are perfect because the upstream vol chip, opa etc., will still then be the bottleneck.

The marketing literature sounds convincing, unless you have seen the schematics and block diagrams.

Regardless, those virtually useless modules add to the cost, so Marantz has to price theirs higher than Denon's that skipped the HDAMs. Just that in the US and Canada, Marantz"s prices are so much higher that if people knew more about the details, most would wisely turn to Denon even if the don't line their styles too much

 

[rbdan]

HDAM works regardless of anlaog or digital inputs. They are an additional buffer at the end (or almost the end) of the preamp/dac path so even if ypu use analog inputs and direct mode to bypass the adc/dac/dsp, the signal still must go through those modules. They can't improve the signal even if they are perfect because the upstream vol chip, opa etc., will still then be the bottleneck.

Good to know. I asked on AVS a while back and was told if you use HDMI then the HDAM circuitry is bypassed.

Thanks for the info @PENG

 

[PENG]

Good to know. I asked on AVS a while back and was told if you use HDMI then the HDAM circuitry is bypassed.

Thanks for the info @PENG

It's the internet, people say all kind of things, and may or may not get challenged by others. Don't take my words either, you can watch the Masimo videos, and/or read the diagrams in the service manuals.

 

[rbdan]

It's the internet, people say all kind of things, and may or may not get challenged by others. Don't take my words either, you can watch the Masimo videos, and/or read the diagrams in the service manuals.

Nah.... I will just take your word for it.